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HarleyQ

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Xeno

Yes, that helps me a lot. I see what you mean now. Thanks.

 

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1 minute ago, eight bits said:

Xeno

Yes, that helps me a lot. I see what you mean now. Thanks.

 

Well thank you for pointing it out. I kinda have a problem where my brain can make the most brilliant explanations but my fingers say nope. lol

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On 12/01/2017 at 9:51 PM, XenoFish said:

You do realize all that happens on a psychological level right? 

Jesus exist in your psyche because he's a thought-form (fancy word for well formed idea) that exist in your head. The more you strengthen this thought-form the more power you give it over yourself. Which can have a wide variety of effect. From religious fervor to suicidal guilt. That all depends on the concept of God or Jesus you have. So what you adore so much is just an idea. Remember Spirituality is just another word for The Feels. I'm not even going to evoke the holy dopamine ghost on this. 

 

given that  all human consciousness consists of thought forms, does this matter?  Every thing about us is the product of thought forms (unless we are brain damaged)  

This explanation

In Christianity, people, whose hearts have been "transformed" by the loving grace of the Holy Spirit, belong to Christ, the Lord. "...the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." The keyword here is "transformed." It is a conscious, mystical change, not a daydream, nor dreaming.

"Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life."

In this 'new life,' you are His throughout eternity -- a brand new life of deepening love (and everything that goes with it) with Christ, the Lord.

 

is as real as any, and actually has a great deal of validity, because it is true that belief transforms us, both in our thoughts and minds, and then in our bodies and actions.

It is biased to a particular (christian) perspective about the forces involved,  but is very accurate in its description of the power of faith and belief in transforming minds bodies and behaviours.  it is a conscious change, involving a very powerful energy form, or force, within our mind, which can virtually make a new man from the old, and totally transform the old into a new and different being.  It is true such a power can be used for evil, but it also has incredible power to do good.

 

 Eventually, such self realisation, and its utilisation in transforming the nature of humanity,  will be the thing which saves humanity from self destruction.  ie when we mature spiritually and in wisdom we wont be materialistic, greedy, selfish,  afraid, envious etc thus we will be at peace in a world of equality and justice, where every human is of equal worth and value.  We wont be driven by the evolved primate behaviours of our bodies, but directed by the learned wisdom's of our minds and our abilty to understand and control our body's responses, using the power and will of our minds. . 

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The way I got Xenofish is that the miracle has to be documented by concrete or scientific instruments -- in realtime (while the event is happening), not just hearsay or story. The psychic, spiritual, or mental account doesn't count. So, a scientific video of my cells regenerating themselves (at a fast rate) is needed...

The only thing that fits this non-subjected case is "Our Lady of Guadalupe," but apparently, "Mr Schulenburg, who guarded the shrine for 33 years, claimed three years ago that the miracle was symbolic rather than literal," according to The Guardian.

Madonna of Guadalupe 'fake'

Faith, therefore, is still subjective, especially since happiness is personal. To an outsider, healing is nothing unique; many people get healed everyday, every hour, every minute, and every second...but if one were to show the world how the healing was accomplished in a scientific way while keeping the otherworldly intact, we would all be praying right now.

Could Brother Carmelo Cortez's "rose petals miracle" be this generation's "Our Lady of Fatima" event? Time will tell.

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13 hours ago, Ehrman Pagels 1 said:

but if one were to show the world how the healing was accomplished in a scientific way while keeping the otherworldly intact, we would all be praying right now.

That kind of nonsense is a spiritually loaded placebo effect. "Mind over Matter" in a metaphorical sense. Sure it might work but it won't cure the disease. Placebo's can only do so much. 

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You completely missed my point. I was not talking about placebo. That quoted example is about showing a miracle in a concrete, scientific way, while at the same time keeping the otherworldly intact (due to its complexity, meaning great, current scientists have theorized it, but we simply do not have the technology to exactly replicate it). Thus, we would have this great sense of awe and wonder.

Edited by Ehrman Pagels 1
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On ‎25‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 11:03 AM, David Henson said:

You have to get to know his will. Lets say a kid prays to God that his team wins the tournament or whatever. God doesn't care about that. Another example, a man prays his wife recovers from terminal cancer, that isn't in God's will either, it was his will that we all die due to our sin. World peace? God doesn't want world peace as such, until he brings it about because he knows we can't do it without him. On the other hand, to pray that God's kingdom removes all the other existing kingdoms putting an end to suffering, death, and the current messed up world is within God's will. Praying he forgive others as one would like to be forgiven themselves is within his will.  

So God's will is what ever your dogma says.

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7 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

So God's will is what ever your dogma says.

Funny how it's always convenient like that, isn't it?

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 11/29/2016 at 0:34 AM, DebDandelion said:

Al lot of people have a lot of views on God. but for me I do not have that challenge.  I would ask God for an answer and measure that answer according to His guidelines.

Example : I need to make a choice about.my job. I pray that the Lord gives me guidance. if the job is meant for me I ask that He puts things in place for it to happen. God doesn't provide a multitude of choices, I have always conducted myself that if I have more than one choice, one of them is incorrect.  I then make it an issue of prayer. I do not force the choice.  

IMO, if it is from God I have not experienced doubt or fear about the choice. it is a clear choice that brings me calmness and peace.

You know, I pretty much do that, but as I see it as a my version of a higher power, or refer to my own New Age spirituality. I think I do the same as you. I also think, I have a seeing it on both sides ( spirituality vs actuality ) and use it as a backup or a buffer up, if that makes sense. 

For anything else...................... I google! ;)  :D    :tu:  

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On 1/12/2017 at 7:21 AM, Ehrman Pagels 1 said:

You can choose to believe that it's all psychological, XenoFish.   

( just want to make note, this post is having technical difficulties, so this is why it's posted the way it did ) 

Ok, so I feel strongly that you cannot choose to believe, you can believe because there is reason for it. Choosing to believe will only screw up your psyche later on in the future. 

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On 1/12/2017 at 7:35 AM, Ehrman Pagels 1 said:

In my case, I go by results, and I can only say that I'm very grateful and humbled by my faith in Christ. This is the happiest period of my life.

Good for you! :)  :yes:  But, I would think this is a subjective result. It's a positive for you, but it's understandable that it more than likely cannot be replicated for others and their subjective point of views. 

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On 1/12/2017 at 5:50 PM, eight bits said:

Xeno
 

Your personal interpretation may be that A is posing the question to herself, and who knows? I might even agree with you, but that was not the premise of the OP's question. On SR & B we are asked to accept posters' framing premises (here, that conversation with God or Satan is possible) in order to address the specific issue offered for discussion (how might humans discern good and bad sources).

Also, and maybe I'm just not following you, but it sounds like A already knows who's who, if her premise is accepted. She might have a problem of being tempted to go with what she knows is diabolically bad advice, but she does seem to realize that that option is "diabolical."

Finally, and here I know I am not following you, why is the information which is available to B about the natural consequences of each option unavailable to A? Isn't the prospect of getting sick from an Oreo binge a legitimately useful hint as to which advice might be better?

What if your answers are coming from those who passed on and are playing around with your mind?

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On 1/12/2017 at 6:59 PM, XenoFish said:

Well thank you for pointing it out. I kinda have a problem where my brain can make the most brilliant explanations but my fingers say nope. lol

I think it's the other way around for me. :huh: 

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On 1/16/2017 at 3:46 AM, Ehrman Pagels 1 said:

The way I got Xenofish is that the miracle has to be documented by concrete or scientific instruments -- in realtime (while the event is happening), not just hearsay or story. The psychic, spiritual, or mental account doesn't count. So, a scientific video of my cells regenerating themselves (at a fast rate) is needed...

The only thing that fits this non-subjected case is "Our Lady of Guadalupe," but apparently, "Mr Schulenburg, who guarded the shrine for 33 years, claimed three years ago that the miracle was symbolic rather than literal," according to The Guardian.

Madonna of Guadalupe 'fake'

Faith, therefore, is still subjective, especially since happiness is personal. To an outsider, healing is nothing unique; many people get healed everyday, every hour, every minute, and every second...but if one were to show the world how the healing was accomplished in a scientific way while keeping the otherworldly intact, we would all be praying right now.

Could Brother Carmelo Cortez's "rose petals miracle" be this generation's "Our Lady of Fatima" event? Time will tell.

In the end, it's still subjective right? If it's one's person happiness with their personal faith, that's great. If another needs actual proof, what is wrong with that? 

I don't knock that subjectiveness of how those sees their own beliefs and how it plays in their lives and how so. I just don't think one's person's subjective outlook is to be pushed upon as an objective one, most especially there doesn't seem to be a way to make it look objective. 

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On 1/18/2017 at 6:54 AM, Ehrman Pagels 1 said:

You completely missed my point. I was not talking about placebo. That quoted example is about showing a miracle in a concrete, scientific way, while at the same time keeping the otherworldly intact (due to its complexity, meaning great, current scientists have theorized it, but we simply do not have the technology to exactly replicate it). Thus, we would have this great sense of awe and wonder.

Uh, how so? Going to the link myself, I am reading how it's being contradicted as being scientifically proven. If I read that link correctly. Plus, this: 

Quote

Mr Schulenburg, who guarded the shrine for 33 years, claimed three years ago that the miracle was symbolic rather than literal.

Wouldn't that mean, subjective rather than objective?

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13 hours ago, coolguy said:

The voice in my head anwsers all of them 

Well, I like all of my voices!!! :yes: 

Well, there is one that............................................ I HATE THAT VOICE!!! :w00t: 

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Stubbly

Quote

What if your answers are coming from those who passed on and are playing around with your mind?

It is very interesting to think about what the situation of the dead would be if they (= someday we) do in some sense survive, and what their motivation would be to communicate with the living, if they could communicate.

And then, turn it around one more time, and might not the interaction be perceived by us, the living, as "playing around with our minds"?

Comparing the problem with natural life, everybody knows that it is possible to communicate with dogs, but it takes effort and it is prone to misunderstanding. Among dogs, the ten percent who are alphas are often more interested than the average dog in establishing communication across the species divide, and many alphas will make extra effort.

So one day, I was looking after an alpha beagle. We knew each other well, and she regularly made 'extra effort.' I got to thinking about the Simpsons' Santa's Little Helper, and how the show would depict his point of view of humans speaking to him:

"Blah-blah-blah food blah-blah walk blah-blah treat ...."

That is, modulated noise punctuated by significant words.

OK, so I decided to try that with the beagle, and spoke to her in modulated but meaningless blah-blah-blahs. She reacted very quickly and became distressed. Of course, I stopped then, and reassured her that everything was all right. She was upset, she needed that reassurance.

Now, from her point of view, WTF was I doing? From my point of view, I was trying to advance a joint project, to learn more about how she processes my attempts to communicate with her. But from her point of view, I think she thought that I was playing with her mind, and in a way, I was, even though I wasn't trying to be mischievous.

A two-pipe problem, as Sherlock used to say.

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I find it useful, since I'm mildly schizophrenic anyway, to assume the spirit talking to me and claiming to be someone dead really is a delusion, but to act as though I think otherwise and ask it questions and answer questions and so on.

Let me emphasize that this is rare.  I go through most of my life undisturbed and even when they do things it is usually not verbal but something better classified as a nuisance.

That said, we have to understand that the delusion "knows" whatever we know, but no more (at least without guessing or lying).  It becomes a game and of course when the delusion "realizes" this, it goes away.  Psychiatrists taught me all this, although it only really works if you use drugs and other techniques (I don't need medical help any more) that keep your skepticism about your ability to fool yourself at a high level.  (Convincing oneself things one hears so loud and clear is a delusion is not easy, and takes time and the application of devious methods).

That is worth remembering: we are capable of fooling ourselves about almost anything if we want to.  Whether or not something is intriguing, or beautiful, or good, or a relief, or whatever, means nothing and is not associated with truth.

By the way, my bedroom lamp hasn't given up -- nor have a couple others -- but now limit themselves to giving advice and suggesting other ways of looking at things or of behaving that are pretty much what I would conclude anyway once my emotions pass).  They are always very positive and uplifting -- I guess my mental problem is not so much a problem after all, because I really do feel for people who get voices telling them terrible things.  I think that is a problem Christians have because of Satan and all the Demons and all that -- they don't exist in my belief system and so can't invent themselves.  About the best I can do is my dear dead mother.

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17 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Good for you! :)  :yes:  But, I would think this is a subjective result. It's a positive for you, but it's understandable that it more than likely cannot be replicated for others and their subjective point of views. 

I can think of several people, whose lives have been "transformed" by the Holy Spirit. They also retain the life of conscious, deepening love. This type of happiness doesn't happen over night, mind you, but then again, no one said that a "change of heart" or repentance would be easy. There is a reason why Christians constantly pray, meditate, study, and examine our lives with Christ our Lord in mind. Also, I'm not in my twenties or thirties; I'm more than half a century old, and an "out" gay. Perhaps that makes a difference, as well.

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Ehrman:

I can think of several people, whose lives have been "transformed" by the Holy Spirit. They also retain the life of conscious, deepening love. This type of happiness doesn't happen over night, mind you, but then again, no one said that a "change of heart" or repentance would be easy. There is a reason why Christians constantly pray, meditate, study, and examine our lives with Christ our Lord in mind. Also, I'm not in my twenties or thirties; I'm more than half a century old, and an "out" gay. Perhaps that makes a difference, as well.

Well, I should have eluded in my reply, that I don't doubt that there have been others in their 'joy' with the same spirit as well, but my point was it's more than likely in a subjective manner, than an objective one. My point is that, I don't think you expect it to be an objective one for everyone. 

Example, I have had something, akin to maybe being 'transformed' or such, but not through your way, but my own. Can you actually back up proof that the holy spirit can do this for everyone? Or do you realize it is a subjective thing?

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"Transformation" is not the issue... The Holy Spirit is the smoking gun, and as I have said before, we do not have the technology to capture or measure spirit (or i.e. Holy Spirit) since it is "otherworldly," by definition; otherwise, it wouldn't be a such. The miracles of Fatima, for example, are still within skepticism and reinterpretation. Anything "otherworldly" is always in the realm of disbelief or doubt to the other person.

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The following are my opinions based on a life of dealing with various forms of mental illness and different kinds of belief.  As you will see, I've settled into a basically skeptical frame of mind, with the attitude of not "believing" at all but only forming opinions, and then only when there is sufficient reason.

Because something gives you joy or relief or peace or whatever of that sort does not make it "real" in any sense of the word.  The only test for truth is truth, and in the long run -- indeed generally all the time -- truth is the best solution.  We have to deal with the world as it is, ugly as that may sometimes be, and not resort to wishful thinking -- that is no better than drinking to cover your problems and is seriously addictive.  

What tends to happen when one relies on untrue ideas and teachings for happiness is what is known as cognitive dissonance, as aspects of reality begin to intrude and disturb the delusions, making matters much worse.

But how can I tell what is true and what isn't?  There are a number of tests, none of them perfect, but useful regardless.  One of them is whether the genuinely wise of the world believe it -- the scientists and educators and trained specialists who have recognized credentials.  They can be wrong, and this must be kept in mind, but generally following them greatly improves your odds.

Another test is to learn to recognize when you are being "read."  You will hear something like, "I'm picking up that something bad happened to you about twenty years ago.  Well, of course something bad happened to you twenty years ago -- bad things are always happening, but if you focus on this "correct" guess, you are falling into a clever trap.  

Another is people wanting to pray for you or do special things at temple for you.  Do them yourself.  It is hard to be rude to people and tell them you would rather they didn't, so obfuscate the issue -- say something like "I don't trust myself -- I'm skeptical (not about them but about your personal ability to deceive yourself via wishful thinking).  The implication that you are also skeptical of what they say kinda follows without being explicitly stated.  Don't "join in prayer."  They control the prayer and you are being manipulated.  Tell them your prayers are a private matter.

Of course this is when you are dealing with not just outright frauds but people who themselves are deluded or indoctrinated, so they may be very sincere and do good works and so on.  This is of course all just fine, until the indoctrination begins.

Skepticism is the key -- not cynicism, and don't let people use that word (you are willing to accept as true things that make sense and have good evidence).  You don't believe because something is good or uplifting or because of tradition or authority -- you believe because it is sensible, fits the world as we see it with real vision, has evidence and little if any counter-evidence.  The willingness to accept non-belief because there is no belief that works is perfectly fine -- science and philosophy are always progressing and answering questions that once were unanswerable, so who knows?  The ability to say, "I don't know" is one of the greatest ways possible of avoiding delusions.

"Seekers after truth" often amaze me.  If they really were such a seeker, they would take courses in ways of thinking, in logic and especially logical fallacies, in propaganda techniques, in magical thinking, and in cognitive processes.  Instead they seek out cults or at least abandon their natural disbelief when one comes their way.  The default to any assertion is disbelief.  One does not believe things without good reason, not just because someone says it's so.  This is of course obvious, but there are so many devices that people use to get you to forget this that one must travel carefully among the wolves.

 

Edited by Frank Merton
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On ‎11‎/‎29‎/‎2016 at 0:23 AM, HarleyQ said:

God sometimes confuses you a lot. He gives you answers to what you ask. But, how can you be sure that it's him answering and not Satan? 

You`ll know within your self , for Jesus said God is within you. Every person on this earth knows what's right or wrong, or faced your own  judgement . 

Edited by docyabut2
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5 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

The only test for truth is truth, and in the long run -- indeed generally all the time -- truth is the best solution...

What tends to happen when one relies on untrue ideas and teachings for happiness is what is known as cognitive dissonance, as aspects of reality begin to intrude and disturb the delusions, making matters much worse.

But how can I tell what is true and what isn't?  There are a number of tests, none of them perfect, but useful regardless.  One of them is whether the genuinely wise of the world believe it -- the scientists and educators and trained specialists who have recognized credentials.  They can be wrong, and this must be kept in mind, but generally following them greatly improves your odds.

Of course this is when you are dealing with not just outright frauds but people who themselves are deluded or indoctrinated, so they may be very sincere and do good works and so on.  This is of course all just fine, until the indoctrination begins.

Skepticism is the key -- not cynicism, and don't let people use that word (you are willing to accept as true things that make sense and have good evidence).  You don't believe because something is good or uplifting or because of tradition or authority -- you believe because it is sensible, fits the world as we see it with real vision, has evidence and little if any counter-evidence.  The willingness to accept non-belief because there is no belief that works is perfectly fine -- science and philosophy are always progressing and answering questions that once were unanswerable, so who knows?  The ability to say, "I don't know" is one of the greatest ways possible of avoiding delusions.

"Seekers after truth" often amaze me.  If they really were such a seeker, they would take courses in ways of thinking, in logic and especially logical fallacies, in propaganda techniques, in magical thinking, and in cognitive processes.  Instead they seek out cults or at least abandon their natural disbelief when one comes their way.  The default to any assertion is disbelief.  One does not believe things without good reason, not just because someone says it's so.  This is of course obvious, but there are so many devices that people use to get you to forget this that one must travel carefully among the wolves.

 

Agreed. Seekers, in general, should go to collage and absolutely take Critical Thinking 101 and Critical Reading 101. The "seekers" I personally know (and actually call "seekers") are highly educated, accomplished, and financially stable or working.  

To say that all seekers have the same goal or even the same state of mind is just circular reasoning. A fallacy.

Also, most people "assume the conclusion" that all paths even care about their seekers, whether these aspirants reach their goal, or not. One master said, "You can always choose to just be part of the atmosphere and pay the master's expenses..." Another 'spiritual' teacher said, "You have to steal your attainment from the master, it doesn't just fall down from the sky; there are not 'gifts.'"

Even in Christianity (with all its different variations), one is never forced to do anything. Besides, there are sects who believe that not everyone has "it," or what it takes to gain salvation.

Everyone should be aware of assumptions. And yes, be skeptical. "Be wise as serpents..." Wolves are always among us.

At any rate, there comes a time when reading is not enough, and the "unexplained (which is usually not measurable by material-realm, earthly devices)" reveals a piece of the puzzle. Does one simply ignore it, and regret it on one's deathbed for not pursuing it? Choices, we all have those. And a path that hinders your ability to choose or leave should be avoided.    

 

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