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Detecting an alien spaceship?


Derek Willis

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3 hours ago, stereologist said:

I was wondering about the wide field devices that scan the skies for NEOs. These are devices such as LINEAR or PAN-STARRS

I imagine that these devices would detect objects coming into Earth orbit that were in the size range of the ISS out millions of miles from Earth.

There are also searches for possible other moons of Earth.

RH120 is only 2-3 meters across and was detected to be in Earth orbit.

The detection of these objects might be useful in setting up the conditions in which a large object can enter Earth orbit or Earth proximity without being detected easily.

An ISS size spaceship could not possibly remain undetected - I think we agree on that - but it might not be detected as soon as it arrived in the vicinity of the Earth. The object of my exercise is, if possible, to make a "guestimation" of how long it might remain undetected. Essentially, because rapid full-sky radar sweeps are not made to distances of, say, 100,000 miles, radar is unlikely to be the primary means of detection. That leaves optical and near optical methods, such as the scans for NEOs or IR space telescopes. In the case of NEOs, the link you gave points out how the majority of the searches are carried out along the ecliptic because that is where asteroids are likely to be. Basically, the aliens are trying to second guess what detection capabilities we have, and calculate the probability of their spaceship being detected.

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The ship itself, no matter the size, would have to slow down in order to enter orbit and I would guess that is when some infrared telescope would suddenly detect a new IR source changing trajectories/slowing down.  At that point I am guessing a radar system and optical system would be aimed at the object to try and figure out what it is.  

As for Apollo, I know it carried transponders and was tracked mainly that way using large dish antennas at various spots on earth to triangulate an exact location, altitude and velocity. I'll try and find the paper I read.

Observations of various Apollo missions  http://pages.astronomy.ua.edu/keel/space/apollo.html

EDIT:  Here you go Derek, a PDF describing the tracking of Apollo at various times in its flight.   http://web.mit.edu/digitalapollo/Documents/Chapter8/trackingapollo.pdf   Not sure if they used active radar after the capsule was on its way to the Moon.  Maybe in earth orbit and such but maybe Bad can come up with some better info. 

Edited by Merc14
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1 hour ago, Derek Willis said:

An ISS size spaceship could not possibly remain undetected - I think we agree on that - but it might not be detected as soon as it arrived in the vicinity of the Earth. The object of my exercise is, if possible, to make a "guestimation" of how long it might remain undetected. Essentially, because rapid full-sky radar sweeps are not made to distances of, say, 100,000 miles, radar is unlikely to be the primary means of detection. That leaves optical and near optical methods, such as the scans for NEOs or IR space telescopes. In the case of NEOs, the link you gave points out how the majority of the searches are carried out along the ecliptic because that is where asteroids are likely to be. Basically, the aliens are trying to second guess what detection capabilities we have, and calculate the probability of their spaceship being detected.

The links should point out how often the sky is re-imaged for NEO surveys. IR scans are done from space. They require coolant that runs out making IR scans not as common as optical. There should be some sort of tech to absorb light and re-emit as longer wavelengths and possibly oriented away from the Earth. Or there might be a way to reflect incoming light away from the Earth making the object so dim that it is hard to detect.

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1 hour ago, Merc14 said:

The ship itself, no matter the size, would have to slow down in order to enter orbit and I would guess that is when some infrared telescope would suddenly detect a new IR source changing trajectories/slowing down.  At that point I am guessing a radar system and optical system would be aimed at the object to try and figure out what it is.  

As for Apollo, I know it carried transponders and was tracked mainly that way using large dish antennas at various spots on earth to triangulate an exact location, altitude and velocity. I'll try and find the paper I read.

Observations of various Apollo missions  http://pages.astronomy.ua.edu/keel/space/apollo.html

EDIT:  Here you go Derek, a PDF describing the tracking of Apollo at various times in its flight.   http://web.mit.edu/digitalapollo/Documents/Chapter8/trackingapollo.pdf   Not sure if they used active radar after the capsule was on its way to the Moon.  Maybe in earth orbit and such but maybe Bad can come up with some better info. 

Hi Merc. I already looked at the links you have provided, but thanks anyway. It is proving surprisingly difficult to determine whether the Apollo missions were tracked by radar all the way to the Moon. But even if they were, as far as my sci-fi story is concerned, any radar with that range would have to rapidly sweep the whole sky (the way missile early warning radar does) or be very lucky and just happen to be pointing in the right direction when the craft approached. The same goes for any IR telescope detecting the engines slowing the craft into orbit. For instance, the Wide-field Infrared Survey Explorer took six months to survey the entire sky (at least I think that is the case) so if it were pointing the wrong way when the spacecraft fired its engines, it would miss the show! Inevitably a spaceship would be detected one way or the other, so I am trying a bit of maths to come up with the likelihood of this, and hence how long the aliens would have before being detected.  

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Hmm..  There was a lengthy discussion about this involving an Apollo denier who raised his belief that they could never have re-acquired the CM when it was time for the LM to blast off and get re-united.  I'm pretty sure the discussion covered the tracking in some detail, and was either at BAUT (now Cosmoquest) or perhaps Abovetopsecret..  I'll see if I can find it..

But seriously, Buzz Aldrin (aka Dr Rendezvous) was on board - his obsession was with navigating spacecraft and getting them to meet up perfectly.. He was the first true doctorate in the astronaut ranks and his thesis was "Manned Orbital Rendezvous" - he was heavily involved in developing the navigation and docking procedures.

There was no way he would allow them to be truly lost.., and even if they were, he woulda found a way!

 

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SOFIA detecting its engines would be a neat twist!  IR telescope above 98% of the atmosphere.  Pure coincidence, obviously, but what is fiction for if not coincidences.  :D

Edited by Merc14
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5 hours ago, Merc14 said:

SOFIA detecting its engines would be a neat twist!  IR telescope above 98% of the atmosphere.  Pure coincidence, obviously, but what is fiction for if not coincidences.  :D

I think you will find that a very clever and knowledgeable poster allready suggested that very idea back on the first page of this thread (post #5 to be exact) . :whistle: 

Edited by Noteverythingisaconspiracy
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1 hour ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

I think you will find that a very clever and knowledgeable poster allready suggested that very idea back on the first page of this thread (post #5 to be exact) . :whistle: 

:tsu::tsu:

Great minds and all that NEIAC.  :D  I was watching an episode of Deep Astronomy about SOFIA and remembered Derek's book and thought "How cool would that be?"  Such a cool machine. 

Edited by Merc14
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