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Historic shift in US policy on Israel?


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http://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-un-idUSKBN14C1IV?il=0

This had been rumored for months but lately had gotten little press.  Obama wants to give Bibi and Israel the old two finger just as he leaves office.  What better time for a gift to the world than Christmas?  Egypt and 4 other nations sponsored the language but Egypt reversed course after Trump had a chat with Al Sisi.  Apparently, Obama is not to be denied.  If this passes today, people will look back and point to this event as the starting point for a third world war.  If it passes, Europe gains legitimacy to sanction Israel into the ground unless it gives up all settlements and even vacates the Jordan valley with the IDF.  Since they cannot do this, war will follow.  If a guy of average intelligence from Alabama can figure this out, you'd think the PTB would see it coming as well, no?

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these settlements are illegal are they not? this is not as worrying to start ww3 as lets say the increase in terrorism in Europe, a Russian ambassador getting shop, or the U.S/NATO instigating Russia into a conflict. There are obvious wrongs on the Palestinian side of this but Israel has made many questionable moves including violence settlement expansionism.

 

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37 minutes ago, AdealJustice said:

these settlements are illegal are they not? this is not as worrying to start ww3 as lets say the increase in terrorism in Europe, a Russian ambassador getting shop, or the U.S/NATO instigating Russia into a conflict. There are obvious wrongs on the Palestinian side of this but Israel has made many questionable moves including violence settlement expansionism.

 

"Most countries and the United Nations view Israeli West Bank settlements as illegal and an obstacle to peace."

Hmm. What could possibly be the reason we don't? 

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Alav Ha-sholom  Yitzhak Rabin ... finally ...

~

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I wonder which of the peace-loving, progressive states in Europe will be the first to foment for sanctions.  Today, with a US president's help, the world began a slow(?) tumble into true chaos.  When the Jews of Israel finally come to grips with the fact that they have no friends more powerful than themselves, they will finally, also be free to act BY THEMSELVES.  I think the anti-Israel bias - whatever its roots- is disgusting.  I also think that a global war is closer today than it has been in a very long time.  

I've been referring to this moment for months and now it's here, it still doesn't seem real.  I realize that the thug in chief doesn't read the bible but there is a verse he will someday become fully, eternally, aware of...

"I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse "

Incidentally, I did not start this thread to re-litigate the Palestinian/Israel issue.  It has been done to death and no attitude will ever change on this forum.  The thread is about the changes we can expect to see coming forward next.  I foresee progressively more odious sanctions on Israel until she either submits and removes to a country about half the size it is today while giving her mortal enemy the high ground from which to fire on her children, OR, recognizing the futility of that, initiates war in the area and claims the land her people believe is theirs.  Those who think that cannot happen should remember who will be in office in about 27 days.

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8 minutes ago, third_eye said:

Alav Ha-sholom  Yitzhak Rabin ... finally ...

~

 

Just as it takes TWO to be at war, it also takes two to find peace.  This resolution did nothing to advance peace.  It only pushed it farther away and made a catastrophic war more likely.  Even if the Israeli leadership bowed to this and actually demilitarized the west bank, vacated east Jerusalem and allowed a token right of return, it would not be enough.  It will NEVER be enough.  The world knows it and Israel knows it.  The question today is how will Israel react.  I don't think we will have long to wait.  Netanyahu will either lose his government or Israel will rally behind him.  After that, who knows?

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Just now, and then said:

Just as it takes TWO to be at war, it also takes two to find peace.  This resolution did nothing to advance peace.  It only pushed it farther away and made a catastrophic war more likely.  Even if the Israeli leadership bowed to this and actually demilitarized the west bank, vacated east Jerusalem and allowed a token right of return, it would not be enough.  It will NEVER be enough.  The world knows it and Israel knows it.  The question today is how will Israel react.  I don't think we will have long to wait.  Netanyahu will either lose his government or Israel will rally behind him.  After that, who knows?

Merry Christmas to you too ...

~

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2 hours ago, third_eye said:

Merry Christmas to you too ...

~

 

And to you, sir.  Best wishes for a happy, healthy 2017.  

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One more resolution which will not have any influence on the field.

14 hours ago, and then said:

Just as it takes TWO to be at war, it also takes two to find peace.  This resolution did nothing to advance peace.  It only pushed it farther away and made a catastrophic war more likely.  Even if the Israeli leadership bowed to this and actually demilitarized the west bank, vacated east Jerusalem and allowed a token right of return, it would not be enough.  It will NEVER be enough.  The world knows it and Israel knows it.  The question today is how will Israel react.  I don't think we will have long to wait.  Netanyahu will either lose his government or Israel will rally behind him.  After that, who knows?

We can never know if anything will be enough for peace because some sort of 'status quo' is preserved for very long time now. And this everlasting situation does favor Israel.

All in all, this resolution ( as many resolutions before ) won't change anything on the field so i believe that Israel won't actually loose anything by this. We can all just keep calm and watch things play out in the same manner as before, settlements will grow maybe even more rapidly now. There will be no changes even tho the world needs changes.

 

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1 hour ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

One more resolution which will not have any influence on the field.

We can never know if anything will be enough for peace because some sort of 'status quo' is preserved for very long time now. And this everlasting situation does favor Israel.

All in all, this resolution ( as many resolutions before ) won't change anything on the field so i believe that Israel won't actually loose anything by this. We can all just keep calm and watch things play out in the same manner as before, settlements will grow maybe even more rapidly now. There will be no changes even tho the world needs changes.

 

 

Respectfully, I think you misunderstand the importance of this event.  Yes, there will be no forced change on the ground tomorrow.  The changes, IMO, will begin early in the new year and will begin with the systematic application of increasing sanctions against the state.  In time, this will cause a change in the government and the Left there will do what the Left always does, it will attempt to appease an enemy that only wants them dead.  The argument for peace is a rational argument and if both parties WERE rational, peace could be achieved.  The passage of this resolution gives the imprimatur of justice to the European community's desire to crush Israel.  I don't think France will wait for long.  

I agree that the world needs changes.  The situation in many hotspots around the globe could be dealt with more fairly but they aren't even mentioned by most in the UN.  Only Israel's sins are proclaimed in resolution after resolution.  I've said for some time now that Israel is being pushed into a corner and that she will eventually have no choice but fight her way out of it or surrender and leave the land totally.  The people of Israel will never leave that land again without being utterly destroyed off of it.  By not having the nations of the world approach this situation with a JUST outcome for all in mind, they are guaranteeing a regional, or even global, war.  

As to the "status quo" being in favor of Israel, that is true.  The problem is that if that radical new position is tried, i.e. demilitarizing and removing the Jewish presence from about half the land it sits on now, what is to keep the Palestinians from doing what they have consistently done?  And if they begin killing Jews again, massive loss of life will ensue for both sides.  Peace is possible between enemies when BOTH are tired of the dying and killing and want better things for their children.  That situation does not exist today.  I don't say these things in desperation, nor do I gloat or revel in what I see coming.  I just wanted a discussion by members on what they see as the outcome of these moves.  As the situation develops, the path the UN have undertaken will become quite clear.  Irrevocably, undeniably, clear.

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21 hours ago, and then said:

Respectfully, I think you misunderstand the importance of this event.  Yes, there will be no forced change on the ground tomorrow.  The changes, IMO, will begin early in the new year and will begin with the systematic application of increasing sanctions against the state.  In time, this will cause a change in the government and the Left there will do what the Left always does, it will attempt to appease an enemy that only wants them dead.  The argument for peace is a rational argument and if both parties WERE rational, peace could be achieved.  The passage of this resolution gives the imprimatur of justice to the European community's desire to crush Israel.  I don't think France will wait for long.  

I agree that the world needs changes.  The situation in many hotspots around the globe could be dealt with more fairly but they aren't even mentioned by most in the UN.  Only Israel's sins are proclaimed in resolution after resolution.  I've said for some time now that Israel is being pushed into a corner and that she will eventually have no choice but fight her way out of it or surrender and leave the land totally.  The people of Israel will never leave that land again without being utterly destroyed off of it.  By not having the nations of the world approach this situation with a JUST outcome for all in mind, they are guaranteeing a regional, or even global, war.  

As to the "status quo" being in favor of Israel, that is true.  The problem is that if that radical new position is tried, i.e. demilitarizing and removing the Jewish presence from about half the land it sits on now, what is to keep the Palestinians from doing what they have consistently done?  And if they begin killing Jews again, massive loss of life will ensue for both sides.  Peace is possible between enemies when BOTH are tired of the dying and killing and want better things for their children.  That situation does not exist today.  I don't say these things in desperation, nor do I gloat or revel in what I see coming.  I just wanted a discussion by members on what they see as the outcome of these moves.  As the situation develops, the path the UN have undertaken will become quite clear.  Irrevocably, undeniably, clear.

I can not say that such decisions can't ( legally ) open new possibilities for Palestinian authorities to open cases against Israel but such things have never happened in all history of this conflict and i will trust history and logic. As i have said many times here no one can make Israeli people to leave the land because it simply would be unfair to many families even tho that existence of modern state of Israel and it's rise to today's standards was and is unfair to others in many ways.

 

Simply, as much as i support Palestine in their fight for their own country i support Israel's survival as a country because we cannot change what had to be changed 100+ years ago.

What disgusts me about this case are all those claims from Israeli officials ( after resolution was voted in favor ) where they say how this resolution is '' immoral, unjust... '' etc. What's more immoral is existence of Jewish settlements, road blocks and presence of IDF in every aspect of life in every Palestinian family in occupied lands. That is immoral and simply put, defending yourself doesn't and should not include offensive operations and total control of oppressed population.

You have made some things clear here and i can see logic behind it but i do hope and i believe that you are wrong, respectfully. UN is lost case. Remember Rwanda, Srebrenica well even Gadaffi's end after his historical speech. UN makes me laugh honestly.

 

 

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On 24/12/2016 at 7:30 AM, and then said:

I wonder which of the peace-loving, progressive states in Europe will be the first to foment for sanctions.  Today, with a US president's help, the world began a slow(?) tumble into true chaos.  When the Jews of Israel finally come to grips with the fact that they have no friends more powerful than themselves, they will finally, also be free to act BY THEMSELVES.  I think the anti-Israel bias - whatever its roots- is disgusting.  I also think that a global war is closer today than it has been in a very long time.  

I've been referring to this moment for months and now it's here, it still doesn't seem real.  I realize that the thug in chief doesn't read the bible but there is a verse he will someday become fully, eternally, aware of...

"I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse "

Incidentally, I did not start this thread to re-litigate the Palestinian/Israel issue.  It has been done to death and no attitude will ever change on this forum.  The thread is about the changes we can expect to see coming forward next.  I foresee progressively more odious sanctions on Israel until she either submits and removes to a country about half the size it is today while giving her mortal enemy the high ground from which to fire on her children, OR, recognizing the futility of that, initiates war in the area and claims the land her people believe is theirs.  Those who think that cannot happen should remember who will be in office in about 27 days.

And God has often seen fit to use other nations to sanction Israel when it stepped off the path He forged for them, whose to saw that God has not chosen to harden people's hearts against Israel to remind Israel of its Covenant?

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On 23-12-2016 at 3:52 PM, and then said:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-un-idUSKBN14C1IV?il=0

This had been rumored for months but lately had gotten little press.  Obama wants to give Bibi and Israel the old two finger just as he leaves office.  What better time for a gift to the world than Christmas?  Egypt and 4 other nations sponsored the language but Egypt reversed course after Trump had a chat with Al Sisi.  Apparently, Obama is not to be denied.  If this passes today, people will look back and point to this event as the starting point for a third world war.  If it passes, Europe gains legitimacy to sanction Israel into the ground unless it gives up all settlements and even vacates the Jordan valley with the IDF.  Since they cannot do this, war will follow.  If a guy of average intelligence from Alabama can figure this out, you'd think the PTB would see it coming as well, no?

 

Yes, what a criminal act of the evil UN to try and go against the incroaching, exponential illegal occupation of other peoples land by oh so holy Israel.. An act of war, we must defend ourselves (while taking other peoples land)! Yeay!

Up side down much?

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The US move at the UN was an embarrassment, abstaining was very poor indeed. If they wanted to send a message to Israel they should have voted one way or another. abstaining was a **** house way.

There is something going very wrong in the USA Obama has led a very weak administration and as a world we face the consequences.  

 

Edited by stevewinn
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3 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

And God has often seen fit to use other nations to sanction Israel when it stepped off the path He forged for them, whose to saw that God has not chosen to harden people's hearts against Israel to remind Israel of its Covenant?

 

Of COURSE, that's what this is about.  And YES they need to be called back to him.  Can you think of any other group in history which has been more disciplined by fate and circumstances over as long a period of time and STILL retains faith at all?  My point about the Jews and Israel has NEVER been that they are blameless or better in any way than other human beings.  I made that clear 5 years ago and have done so regularly since.  The fact that God uses others to accomplish his plans does not excuse them when they do it for reasons of their own. Egypt and Assyria didn't fare so well after they played that role, did they?  The Palestinians (Arabs in general) as well as Europeans and seemingly some people from nearly every other country on the planet, simply cannot let go of an innate hatred of these people.  Often enough, people who have never harmed them personally, ever.  The discussion is about where this goes from here.  

This truly is a game changer.  It opens the nation and all its leaders up to litigation and even criminal prosecution.  Sanctions will follow that will cripple the economy in time and when the pressure is great enough, change will be imposed.  The real question is, how long will it take and what changes will come?  Will Trump be a wild card in their favor?  Will Putin's yes vote cause a problem sooner rather than later in the immediate area?  I see no real, imminent consequences for New Zealand though I am disappointed by the treachery.  The rest I am not surprised by.  The bottom line is that what is written about Israel will become a reality in time and that time seems to be quickly approaching now.  Documenting these events as they occur seems to me to be a productive exercise.

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1 hour ago, stevewinn said:

The US move at the UN was an embarrassment, abstaining was very poor indeed. If they wanted to send a message to Israel they should have voted one way or another. abstaining was a **** house way.

There is something going very wrong in the USA Obama has led a very weak administration and as a world we face the consequences.  

 

 

I agree, totally and I pray that some of the faith of our allies can be restored in the coming years.  I think the man is a coward, a weak, immoral man.  He could have had his lap dog just vote yes but he wouldn't do that for political reasons.  From this day forward, however, when US Jewry vote for his party, they will do so with clear, open eyes about what that means for the only home for the Jews of the world and if they continue to support the Dems, they should have no right to flee to Israel when they are persecuted here.  They are a disgrace to their own blood.

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2 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

 

Yes, what a criminal act of the evil UN to try and go against the incroaching, exponential illegal occupation of other peoples land by oh so holy Israel.. An act of war, we must defend ourselves (while taking other peoples land)! Yeay!

Up side down much?

 

Perhaps you missed an earlier post or didn't understand the OP.  This thread is NOT to re-litigate opinions of who is to blame for the Israel/Palestinian situation.  Respectfully, it is about discussing what potential forms the ramifications of this decision will take.  If you've read the articles explaining the extent of the decision at law, you can probably foresee some of those coming attractions.

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On 12/23/2016 at 8:52 AM, and then said:

 <snip>

If this passes today, people will look back and point to this event as the starting point for a third world war.  If it passes, Europe gains legitimacy to sanction Israel into the ground unless it gives up all settlements and even vacates the Jordan valley with the IDF.  Since they cannot do this, war will follow.  If a guy of average intelligence from Alabama can figure this out, you'd think the PTB would see it coming as well, no?

images_2.jpg

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6 hours ago, and then said:

Perhaps you missed an earlier post or didn't understand the OP.  This thread is NOT to re-litigate opinions of who is to blame for the Israel/Palestinian situation.  Respectfully, it is about discussing what potential forms the ramifications of this decision will take.  If you've read the articles explaining the extent of the decision at law, you can probably foresee some of those coming attractions.

What ramifications? This is no victory for Obama or the Palestinians. Obama is a lame duck just waiting for the the Donald to steam roll his legacy. Once Trump is in office he will reverse America's UN policy. Count on it!

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We have seen the true face of Bibi. Suddenly Israel ''no longer needs the U.N.''. Well, it's about time they are being told officially to stop building illegal settlements in Palestinian territories. We know they won't stop, but a little bit of isolation might make them think twice.

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8 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

What ramifications? This is no victory for Obama or the Palestinians. Obama is a lame duck just waiting for the the Donald to steam roll his legacy. Once Trump is in office he will reverse America's UN policy. Count on it!

 

You don't seem to grasp the reality of this action.  A US president cannot unilaterally reverse an action of the Security Counsel.  An effort at causing huge financial pain might be used against those who took the action, but the resolution is on record now and opens a legal door for tremendous harm against Israel.  That will seem like a gratifying act until they are pushed beyond what they are willing to stand.  What actions do you envision Trump taking to reverse the situation?

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16 minutes ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

We have seen the true face of Bibi. Suddenly Israel ''no longer needs the U.N.''. Well, it's about time they are being told officially to stop building illegal settlements in Palestinian territories. We know they won't stop, but a little bit of isolation might make them think twice.

 

Actually, it isn't Bibi's face that has been obscured, it's Obama's.  But he has now shown himself and what he really is...   I read today that this may only be the first shot in a salvo against Israel before Obama leaves office.  Kerry is soon to give a speech on the M.E. situation and it seems he may set out a plan that will give the world community further ammo to use, "diplomatically"  against Israel.

8 hours ago, Avatar Samantha Ai said:

images_2.jpg

 

Time will tell.  If I AM wrong, I will admit it.  Will you, I wonder?

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2 hours ago, and then said:

You don't seem to grasp the reality of this action.  A US president cannot unilaterally reverse an action of the Security Counsel.  An effort at causing huge financial pain might be used against those who took the action, but the resolution is on record now and opens a legal door for tremendous harm against Israel.  That will seem like a gratifying act until they are pushed beyond what they are willing to stand.  What actions do you envision Trump taking to reverse the situation?

Maybe you're right maybe you're just over reading to much into it. Trump is one of the few presidents that just doesn't give a fig about the status quo or the UN for that matter. Here have a read this might relax you.

Five Ways Trump Could Avenge the Anti-Israel UN Vote

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/12/23/five-ways-trump-will-avenge-anti-israel-un-vote/

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Since yesterday Israel has changed politics with 12 countries which voted in favor of the latest UN resolution ( as i have understood it, not necessarily truth as i can't find more news sources) and also this morning i have read about new plans for 618 new apartments in Eastern Jerusalem. Constructions going as planned despite UN ( as expected ).

 

News are also on Haaretz website : http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.761337

Then there is also Trump and his view of situation. Palestinians won't have better situation because UN's flawed ways, they just feel stronger stomping as result.

 

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