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davros of skaro

Temple Cleansing Fiction

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Temple Cleansing Fiction
 
The Jesus Temple cleansing scene is considered historical by many biblical scholars due to it not being supernatural. Never mind that the courtyard was a massive area (this fact overlooked in recreations), and had armed guards (there were boxes people put money in to look after). Even if you reduce the size to half a football field, and take away the guards? It would take the Son of a God to cause such chaos gone unmolested, but that's the plotline in fiction.
 
The Gospel of Mark (named out of Church tradition) is chock full of hallmarks of literary fabrication, and not an account of historical events, or conflated oral traditions. Mark is considered the first Gospel by most scholars, while later Gospels copy from it verbatim (mostly Matthew & Luke), and add their own embellishments. This would be considered collusion by competent police detectives.
 
The Gospel called Mark has many literary allusions to the Old Testament. Some are overt, but many are covert, and the Temple cleansing scene is a prime example. It even has a "Markan Sandwich" which bookends the event, and completes the literary allusion to scripture. This is not how history is recorded even by the standards of the day. Just imagine reading Josephus, Tacitus, or even Plutarch if they used foreshadowing, allegories, ironies, and other literary fabrication devices in their histories?
 
To understand Mark is to realize that it's a polemic of the Jewish War, and the sacking of Judea by the Romans. The OT is loaded with God sending them destruction for turning away from him, and Prophets giving warnings. Of course these writings are after the event (wether mythical, or not), and labeled fulfilled prophecies. Also Mark has literary allusions in other places to the writings of Paul. If you apply scrutiny to the Pauline Epistles, his Jesus is a celestial being that looks like it never was on Earth historically. 
 
Now look at the literary allusions to scripture in the Gospel of Mark for the Temple cleansing scene, and the Markan sandwich. Then look how the later Gospels do not recognize some of it, drop it out, and put their own spin on things. John puts the event early (there's some funny mental gymnastics by apologists for this), and adds creative writing as if he's recording an actual event meanwhile it's literary artifice.
 
First the OT passages alluded to:
 
Hosea 9 (NRSV)
 
Punishment for Israel’s Sin
 
"9 Do not rejoice, O Israel!
    Do not exult as other nations do;
for you have played the whore, departing from your God.
    You have loved a prostitute’s pay
    on all threshing floors.
2 Threshing floor and wine vat shall not feed them,
    and the new wine shall fail them.
3 They shall not remain in the land of the Lord;
    but Ephraim shall return to Egypt,
    and in Assyria they shall eat unclean food.
4 They shall not pour drink offerings of wine to the Lord,
    and their sacrifices shall not please him.
Such sacrifices shall be like mourners’ bread;
    all who eat of it shall be defiled;
for their bread shall be for their hunger only;
    it shall not come to the house of the Lord.
5 What will you do on the day of appointed festival,
    and on the day of the festival of the Lord?
6 For even if they escape destruction,
    Egypt shall gather them,
    Memphis shall bury them.
Nettles shall possess their precious things of silver;
    thorns shall be in their tents.
7 The days of punishment have come,
    the days of recompense have come;
    Israel cries,
“The prophet is a fool,
    the man of the spirit is mad!”
Because of your great iniquity,
    your hostility is great.
8 The prophet is a sentinel for my God over Ephraim,
yet a fowler’s snare is on all his ways,
    and hostility in the house of his God.
9 They have deeply corrupted themselves
    as in the days of Gibeah;
he will remember their iniquity,
    he will punish their sins.
10 Like grapes in the wilderness,
    I found Israel.
Like the first fruit on the fig tree,
    in its first season,
    I saw your ancestors.
But they came to Baal-peor,
    and consecrated themselves to a thing of shame,
    and became detestable like the thing they loved.
11 Ephraim’s glory shall fly away like a bird
    no birth, no pregnancy, no conception!
12 Even if they bring up children,
    I will bereave them until no one is left.
Woe to them indeed
    when I depart from them!
13 Once I saw Ephraim as a young palm planted in a lovely meadow,
    but now Ephraim must lead out his children for slaughter.
14 Give them, O Lord—
    what will you give?
Give them a miscarrying womb
    and dry breasts.
15 Every evil of theirs began at Gilgal;
    there I came to hate them.
Because of the wickedness of their deeds
    I will drive them out of my house.
I will love them no more;
    all their officials are rebels.
16 Ephraim is stricken,
    their root is dried up,
    they shall bear no fruit.
Even though they give birth,
    I will kill the cherished offspring of their womb.
17 Because they have not listened to him,
    my God will reject them;
    they shall become wanderers among the nations."
 
Psalm 37:35-36 (NRSV)
 
"35 I have seen the wicked oppressing,
and towering like a cedar of Lebanon.
36 Again I passed by, and they were no more;
though I sought them, they could not be found."
 
Zechariah 14:21 (NRSV)
 
"21 and every cooking pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be sacred to the Lord of hosts, so that all who sacrifice may come and use them to boil the flesh of the sacrifice. And there shall no longer be traders in the house of the Lord of hosts on that day."
 
Isaiah 56:7 (NRSV)
 
"7 these I will bring to my holy mountain,
    and make them joyful in my house of prayer;
their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
    will be accepted on my altar;
for my house shall be called a house of prayer
    for all peoples."
 
Jeremiah 7:11 (NRSV)
 
"11 Has this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your sight? You know, I too am watching, says the Lord."
 
Jeremiah 26:8 (NRSV)
 
"8 And when Jeremiah had finished speaking all that the Lord had commanded him to speak to all the people, then the priests and the prophets and all the people laid hold of him, saying, “You shall die!" "
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Now the Gospels:
 
Mark 11:12-21 (NRSV)
 
Jesus Curses the Fig Tree
 
"12 On the following day, when they came from Bethany, he was hungry. 13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to see whether perhaps he would find anything on it. When he came to it, he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. 14 He said to it, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard it."
 
Jesus Cleanses the Temple
 
"15 Then they came to Jerusalem. And he entered the temple and began to drive out those who were selling and those who were buying in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves; 16 and he would not allow anyone to carry anything through the temple. 17 He was teaching and saying, “Is it not written,
 
‘My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations’?
    But you have made it a den of robbers.”
 
18 And when the chief priests and the scribes heard it, they kept looking for a way to kill him; for they were afraid of him, because the whole crowd was spellbound by his teaching. 19 And when evening came, Jesus and his disciples went out of the city."
 
The Lesson from the Withered Fig Tree
 
"20 In the morning as they passed by, they saw the fig tree withered away to its roots. 21 Then Peter remembered and said to him, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree that you cursed has withered.” "
 
Matthew 21:12-20 (NRSV)
 
Jesus Cleanses the Temple
 
"12 Then Jesus entered the temple and drove out all who were selling and buying in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. 13 He said to them, “It is written,
 
‘My house shall be called a house of prayer’;
    but you are making it a den of robbers.”
 
14 The blind and the lame came to him in the temple, and he cured them. 15 But when the chief priests and the scribes saw the amazing things that he did, and heard the children crying out in the temple, “Hosanna to the Son of David,” they became angry 16 and said to him, “Do you hear what these are saying?” Jesus said to them, “Yes; have you never read,
 
‘Out of the mouths of infants and nursing babies
    you have prepared praise for yourself’?”
 
17 He left them, went out of the city to Bethany, and spent the night there."
 
Jesus Curses the Fig Tree
 
"18 In the morning, when he returned to the city, he was hungry. 19 And seeing a fig tree by the side of the road, he went to it and found nothing at all on it but leaves. Then he said to it, “May no fruit ever come from you again!” And the fig tree withered at once. 20 When the disciples saw it, they were amazed, saying, “How did the fig tree wither at once?”
 
Luke 19:45-48 (NRSV)
 
Jesus Cleanses the Temple
 
"45 Then he entered the temple and began to drive out those who were selling things there; 46 and he said, “It is written,
 
‘My house shall be a house of prayer’;
    but you have made it a den of robbers.”
 
47 Every day he was teaching in the temple. The chief priests, the scribes, and the leaders of the people kept looking for a way to kill him; 48 but they did not find anything they could do, for all the people were spellbound by what they heard."
 
John 2:13-22 (NRSV)
 
Jesus Cleanses the Temple
 
"13 The Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 In the temple he found people selling cattle, sheep, and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables. 15 Making a whip of cords, he drove all of them out of the temple, both the sheep and the cattle. He also poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16 He told those who were selling the doves, “Take these things out of here! Stop making my Father’s house a marketplace!” 17 His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for your house will consume me.” 18 The Jews then said to him, “What sign can you show us for doing this?” 19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 The Jews then said, “This temple has been under construction for forty-six years, and will you raise it up in three days?” 21 But he was speaking of the temple of his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this; and they believed the scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken."
 
For those that find this interesting? Check these out:
 

R. G. Price: Jesus Myth - The Case Against Historical Christ

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_history.htm

R. G. Price: The Gospel of Mark as Reaction and Allegory

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/gospel_mark.htm

R. G. Price: How a Fictional Jesus Gave Rise to Christianity

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/fictional_jesus.htm

Dr. Robert M Price: New Testament Narrative as Old Testament Midrash

http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/art_midrash1.htm

Dr. Richard Carrier: Mythical Jesus

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=79Lmmy2jfeo

R. Carrier: Mythmaking in the NT

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cKD3_46Sr88

R. Carrier: Why the Gospels Are Myth

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2e7uhaed594

R. Carrier: Acts as Historical Fiction

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B5MUUP4l6l4

NT Interpolations & Forgeries

http://richardcarrier.blogspot.com/2011/06/pauline-interpolations.html?m=1

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Legends2

http://depts.drew.edu/jhc/rp1cor15.html

R. Carrier: Three things to know about NT manuscripts

http://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/11209

R. Carrier: Paul's Historicity

http://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/7643

The James that Paul met was the "Brother of the Lord" in a spiritual/fictive kinship of all Baptized Christians. Paul was also differentiating James from a racist James that did not behave in a united spiritual family.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=291478

Edited by davros of skaro
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davros

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The Jesus Temple cleansing scene is considered historical by many biblical scholars due to it not being supernatural.

Yes, the standards for what's "historical" in academic Jesus studies are laughable. And more seriously, the argument is fundamentally circular: take a fiction, any fiction, cross out everything that couldn't possibly happen, and designate whatever is left as "what really happened," or better yet "based on what really happened" (and there will always be something left, 'cause otherwise, you'll need to get a real job).

Quote

Just imagine reading Josephus, Tacitus, or even Plutarch if they used foreshadowing, allegories, ironies, and other literary fabrication devices in their histories?

Even Plutarch? Anyway, Josephus and Tacitus are more immediately relevant to our problem, and neither of them was above "literary fabrication devices" (also, Tacitus looks to me like as if he copies Joe when it's in his interest to do so, much like Mattie using Mark, except that Tacitus isn't quite so lazy as to copy word-for-word).

Quote

To understand Mark is to realize that it's a polemic of the Jewish War, ...

Then you've got to check out Lena Einhorn, and her new book A Shift in Time.

http://lenaeinhorn.se/books/a-shift-in-time-2016/

Her take is that Jesus is a fictionalized real person and that the synoptic Gospels are BOTH an allegory of Josephus' Egyptian WITH a literary subtext that is a history of the whole Jewish War. I like what she does with the evidence, but to me it also supports equally well the idea that her "subtext" is the whole text, that "Jesus" is some kind of "Spirit of Jewish National Resistance" (as indeed, one ancient take on the "Christ"  was as an independent spirit that infused various people, coming and going through history to shape events).

Einhorn is the real deal: an MD-PhD who got into medical documentary film making, and then realized that her skills as a professional researcher in real science were rare in Jesus Studies. Even if she is wrong about the conclusion (and um, maybe she isn't wrong), she raises the bar for the level of thinking compared with what gets tenure in the Jesus Studies academy.

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On 12/25/2016 at 6:41 AM, eight bits said:

Then you've got to check out Lena Einhorn, and her new book A Shift in Time.

http://lenaeinhorn.se/books/a-shift-in-time-2016/

Her take is that Jesus is a fictionalized real person and that the synoptic Gospels are BOTH an allegory of Josephus' Egyptian WITH a literary subtext that is a history of the whole Jewish War. I like what she does with the evidence, but to me it also supports equally well the idea that her "subtext" is the whole text, that "Jesus" is some kind of "Spirit of Jewish National Resistance" (as indeed, one ancient take on the "Christ"  was as an independent spirit that infused various people, coming and going through history to shape events).

Einhorn is the real deal: an MD-PhD who got into medical documentary film making, and then realized that her skills as a professional researcher in real science were rare in Jesus Studies. Even if she is wrong about the conclusion (and um, maybe she isn't wrong), she raises the bar for the level of thinking compared with what gets tenure in the Jesus Studies academy.

Interesting Book. But it depends on the Gospels as being history though back written to conceal a later date. The author does not realize that these Messiah wannabes Josephus writes about are acting out to fulfil OT prophecy. Also that the Gospels are not history, and try to fulfill prophecy via Ink.

Dr. Carrier gives a fair review, and sums it up much broader here:

Lena Einhorn on the Claudian Christ Theory

http://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/11048

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Here's another example that Mark (which inspired the later Gospels) is not recording history.
 
Mark 6:1-6
 
"6 He went away from there and came to his own country; and his disciples followed him. 2 And on the sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue; and many who heard him were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get all this? What is the wisdom given to him? What mighty works are wrought by his hands! 3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him. 4 And Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor, except in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.” 5 And he could do no mighty work there, except that he laid his hands upon a few sick people and healed them. 6 And he marveled because of their unbelief. And he went about among the villages teaching."
 
This is a condemnation (of many) of the Jews found in Mark which provides Theistic reasons for the Jewish War. Also this is an allusion to both the Pauline Epistles, and the OT.
 
Paul was persecuted by his own countrymen for turning to Christ. Then the text turns to irony in that Jesus was God's agent (Wisdom) of creation (Carpenter/master worker) that these people fail to recognise (but Demons know who he is elsewhere). Paul's Theology is that Jesus was God's instrument through which things were created.
 
Then it furthers the irony by rattling off what's essentially the Tom, Dick, and Harry in names of ancient Judea. Paul says that Jesus is the "Firstborn" of many brethren. Those Baptized in Christ are in a spiritual family. Also note that in Mark this is the only mention of Mary mother of Jesus, and Mark has several other women named Mary (note:  Romans 16:6). 
 
Finally Jesus could do no mighty work there due to the lack of faith (not being in a spiritual family by the fellow Jews).
 
Proverbs 8:12-36 (NRSV)
 
"12 I, wisdom, live with prudence,
    and I attain knowledge and discretion.
13 The fear of the Lord is hatred of evil.
Pride and arrogance and the way of evil
    and perverted speech I hate.
14 I have good advice and sound wisdom;
    I have insight, I have strength.
15 By me kings reign,
    and rulers decree what is just;
16 by me rulers rule,
    and nobles, all who govern rightly.
17 I love those who love me,
    and those who seek me diligently find me.
18 Riches and honor are with me,
    enduring wealth and prosperity.
19 My fruit is better than gold, even fine gold,
    and my yield than choice silver.
20 I walk in the way of righteousness,
    along the paths of justice,
21 endowing with wealth those who love me,
    and filling their treasuries.
 
Wisdom’s Part in Creation
 
22 The Lord created me at the beginning of his work,
    the first of his acts of long ago.
23 Ages ago I was set up,
    at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,
    when there were no springs abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains had been shaped,
    before the hills, I was brought forth—
26 when he had not yet made earth and fields,
    or the world’s first bits of soil.
27 When he established the heavens, I was there,
    when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 when he made firm the skies above,
    when he established the fountains of the deep,
29 when he assigned to the sea its limit,
    so that the waters might not transgress his command,
when he marked out the foundations of the earth,
30     then I was beside him, like a master worker;
and I was daily his delight,
    rejoicing before him always,
31 rejoicing in his inhabited world
    and delighting in the human race.
32 “And now, my children, listen to me:
    happy are those who keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction and be wise,
    and do not neglect it.
34 Happy is the one who listens to me,
    watching daily at my gates,
    waiting beside my doors.
35 For whoever finds me finds life
    and obtains favor from the Lord;
36 but those who miss me injure themselves;
    all who hate me love death.” "
 
1 Samuel 10:11-12
 
"11 And when all who knew him before saw how he prophesied with the prophets, the people said to one another, “What has come over the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?” 12 And a man of the place answered, “And who is their father?” Therefore it became a proverb, “Is Saul also among the prophets?” "
 
Numbers 14:11 (NRSV)
 
11 "And the Lord said to Moses, “How long will this people despise me? And how long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the signs that I have done among them? "

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Yes, I read the Carrier review. Neither he nor Einhorn in her recent interviews has much to say about her first book on this topic, The Jesus Mystery (in some places it's titled What Happened on the Road to Damascus?).

To me, Paul and his usually-accepted epistles are a huge problem with Einhorn's "real Jesus" in the 50's. Paul was writing in the 50's, and referring back in an autobiographical voice to events from the 30's. Or so it seems. That would need to be accounted for, and it is not obvious how it would help if Paul were Jesus (the final hypothesis in her earlier book).

Paul is less of a problem if Mark is all allegory. Paul might have had his visions of some "Jewish National Spirit" during a lull in the turbulence between the death of Herod the Great and the First Century War. Paul may even have interpreted the resurgence of  bandits in the 50's as a good sign, that the JNS was soon to appear (so, a possibe reading of that cryptic remark in 1 Thessalonians 2:16, that "the wrath of God has finally begun to come upon them.").

Bottom line, then, Einhorn might be valuable for marshalling the evidence for her "subtext," which seems close to how you would like to interpret the synoptics. The difference between her and most "mythicists" would be over whether there was any real figure of Jesus at all, time-shifted or otherwise.

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eight

"Yes, I read the Carrier review."

Then you know she was caught not knowing the peer reviewed literature on the subject?

"Neither he nor Einhorn in her recent interviews has much to say about her first book on this topic, The Jesus Mystery (in some places it's titled What Happened on the Road to Damascus?)."

You mean her thinking the Book of Acts is recording revisionist history in contrast to secular scholarship which says it's mostly made up?

"To me, Paul and his usually-accepted epistles are a huge problem with Einhorn's "real Jesus" in the 50's. Paul was writing in the 50's, and referring back in an autobiographical voice to events from the 30's. Or so it seems. That would need to be accounted for, and it is not obvious how it would help if Paul were Jesus (the final hypothesis in her earlier book)."

I can understand thinking Paul is Jesus, but only momentarily of course. I sure would not create a thread saying so let alone write a Book. Markan Jesus does have Pauline Theological influences including some of his Apostleship experiences. That's if the latter is not Paul's own embellishments for power play?

"Paul is less of a problem if Mark is all allegory."

Mark is demonstrable to be mostly allegory, and symbolism. It casts John the Baptist as the returned Elijah for example. It even gives a wink, and a nod that the whole Book is a parable within parables. 

"Paul might have had his visions of some "Jewish National Spirit" during a lull in the turbulence between the death of Herod the Great and the First Century War."

The simple premise that fits the evidence is that; Paul was persecuting this heretical sect, then started believing it. When someone thinks they have unique knowledge (it does not have to be true) it's capable of having dynamic effects both psychological, and neurological. I highly recommend Carrier's Book "On the Historicity of Jesus". He lays out Christ Theology straight out of the OT which these people were cherry picking for hidden messaged (just like Bible Code believers of today).

What I posted already is just the tip of the Iceberg. 

"Paul may even have interpreted the resurgence of  bandits in the 50's as a good sign, that the JNS was soon to appear (so, a possibe reading of that cryptic remark in 1 Thessalonians 2:16, that "the wrath of God has finally begun to come upon them.")."

Hence "Like a Thief in the night"? LOL!

2:16 is more likely to be an interpolation. See the first link under "NT interpolations & forgeries" for those that want to see what I mean.

"Bottom line, then, Einhorn might be valuable for marshalling the evidence for her "subtext," which seems close to how you would like to interpret the synoptics. The difference between her and most "mythicists" would be over whether there was any real figure of Jesus at all, time-shifted or otherwise." "

If Paul was talking about a celestial being that never was historical (by our standards of historical)? If Mark is not history at all (except borrowing a couple of names), and the other Gospels are not individual attestations, but based on Mark?

Then the probability would be is Jesus is a myth. Jesus would be an adaptation of Philo's "Firstborn Word" Archangel. This would make Paul's terms for his Christ Jesus that matches Philo's "Image of God" make perfect sense.

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The whole issue comes down to creation, does it not?

Currently we have no clue as to why anything exists in the first place.

We model "reality" after the "Big Bang", yet have no clue, at all, as to what caused it.

 

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davros

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Then you know she was caught not knowing the peer reviewed literature on the subject?

On some points. What I think we might agree on is that in this field, the "peer reviewed" literature includes a lot of crap. That complicates everybody's research, including Carrier's own. The need to filter on an industrial scale joins the ever-present possibility of overlooking something.

Quote

You mean her thinking the Book of Acts is recording revisionist history in contrast to secular scholarship which says it's mostly made up?

The status of Acts is disputable, and disputed. For example, there is a secular school that thinks it is heavily cribbed from Josephus. If so, then it is not "made up." Nobody thinks it is faithful to Josephus. If not, then it is the revision of a history.

Whatever else it is, Acts is a story about human activity in the past. It is entirely reasonable to inquire what earlier versions of the story there might have been, and whether or not those earlier versions have any real-historical basis.

Quote

I sure would not create a thread saying so let alone write a Book.

So far as I know, she wrote a chapter where the idea was stated as a hypothesis. As I mentioned, I can't find her advancing that hypothesis lately, and it isn't especially relevant to the problem that "Time shift" has with Paul.

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Mark is demonstrable to be mostly allegory, and symbolism.

Unfortunately, the only way to decide that is to know the truth about the possibly historical Jesus, and we don't. As you know, the indisputably historical Abraham Lincoln was depicted as prosecuting the indisputably historical American Civil War within an allegorical power struggle among vampires, in which the human armies were pawns.

I think that that author's (Grahame-Smith's) intentions were entertainment and humor, however, there is a serious view of the Civil War as a mortal difference of opinion among capitalist big shots about the most lucrative way to exploit workers. Not my cup of tea politically, but the viewpoint exists and might find allegorical expression.

Quote

The simple premise that fits the evidence is that; Paul was persecuting this heretical sect, then started believing it.

Well, not a simple premise. Paul never says by what overt acts, if any, he persecuted the churches, and he never says why, of all nuisances, he focused on them. He does state his belief that he had a visionary experience similar to what people in the churches had had before he did. Whether Paul ever came to believe just what they did is at best unclear. In part, that's because Paul never says what they believed, and neither did they, so far as we know.

It is Acts which says that it was all kumbaya, and you didn't like Acts all that much as a history a few paragraphs ago.

Quote

2:16 is more likely to be an interpolation.

That doesn't rebut the claim that a contemporaneous rise in Judean banditry, chronicled by Josephus, offers "a possible reading of that cryptic remark in 1 Thessalonians 2:16, that 'the wrath of God has finally begun to come upon them.'"

Quote

If Paul was talking about a celestial being that never was historical (by our standards of historical)? If Mark is not history at all (except borrowing a couple of names), and the other Gospels are not individual attestations, but based on Mark?

Those are great questions. Unfortunately,the answers are what is in dispute.

At the time Paul writes, his Jesus is a celestial being, and what Paul believes about his Jesus is based on the Jewish Bible (pre-canonical at that point), especially end-of-days prophecies and new covenant stuff. So, yes, Paul's Jesus resembles Philo's Logos. They're drinking from the same well. That's not what's in dispute in HJ v. MJ.


pallidin

Quote

The whole issue comes down to creation, does it not?

That sounds more like a question about Jesus' divinity, whether he was and if he was, whether he was  divine before the creation, or was himself a created being who got promoted to divine status sometime along the way.

That's not a historical problem, thank God.

Edited by eight bits
order word matters of
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Honestly for myself personally ... in the most humble manner of speaking possible ... I felt that the question is at its most weakest when its focused obsessively on JC alone in regards to the historicity of the times. There are so many other characters in the narratives that has their contributory factors to verify or dispute the inordinate lack of accuracy of the canonical Gospels. For instance, just noting the 'twelve' itself has now been proven without a doubt to be highly dubious, Simon 'Peter' Judas 'Iscariot' Thomas 'Didymus' just to mention a few ... and let's not forget the problem of the too many Marys ...

The issues about the translations to skirt the uncomfortable nuances in the original Greek has been too conveniently ignored just to perpetuate the debate.

Nazarene Nazareth Sicarii Iscariot Lestai Qannai ... I don't know why some find that a slander when its actually the most logical of the answers, it was the time when Rome was stomping on Judea and Palestine. I guess the marketing team Paul got together to sell the 'god' deal to the Hellenized Jews of Ancient Rome couldn't come up with anything better other than be economical with the truth, can't blame him though ... the Romans were notorious for being heavy handed with that kind of nonsense ~

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On 12/29/2016 at 4:21 AM, eight bits said:

davros

On some points. What I think we might agree on is that in this field, the "peer reviewed" literature includes a lot of crap. That complicates everybody's research, including Carrier's own. The need to filter on an industrial scale joins the ever-present possibility of overlooking something.

What you call "some" is well known in the field, and critical to Einhorn's hypothesis. 

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The status of Acts is disputable, and disputed. For example, there is a secular school that thinks it is heavily cribbed from Josephus. If so, then it is not "made up." Nobody thinks it is faithful to Josephus. If not, then it is the revision of a history.

Whatever else it is, Acts is a story about human activity in the past. It is entirely reasonable to inquire what earlier versions of the story there might have been, and whether or not those earlier versions have any real-historical basis.

Acts is from the same author of Luke who cribbed off of Mark, and Matthew. Not looking good.

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So far as I know, she wrote a chapter where the idea was stated as a hypothesis. As I mentioned, I can't find her advancing that hypothesis lately, and it isn't especially relevant to the problem that "Time shift" has with Paul.

That's good to know. 

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Unfortunately, the only way to decide that is to know the truth about the possibly historical Jesus, and we don't. As you know, the indisputably historical Abraham Lincoln was depicted as prosecuting the indisputably historical American Civil War within an allegorical power struggle among vampires, in which the human armies were pawns.

If the only thing we got for a pre-Van Helsing like Lincoln was someone non-contemporary refering to him from visions, and select versus from scripture? I would find Abe as improbable as being historical.

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Well, not a simple premise. Paul never says by what overt acts, if any, he persecuted the churches, and he never says why, of all nuisances, he focused on them. He does state his belief that he had a visionary experience similar to what people in the churches had had before he did. Whether Paul ever came to believe just what they did is at best unclear. In part, that's because Paul never says what they believed, and neither did they, so far as we know.

It's a simple premise once you separate the Epistles Paul from the fictional Acts Paul.

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That doesn't rebut the claim that a contemporaneous rise in Judean banditry, chronicled by Josephus, offers "a possible reading of that cryptic remark in 1 Thessalonians 2:16, that 'the wrath of God has finally begun to come upon them.'"

Are Bandits God's style? I would think swarms of Locusts would be a good starter?

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Those are great questions. Unfortunately,the answers are what is in dispute.

I know you love questions, but have trouble with probabilities. 

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At the time Paul writes, his Jesus is a celestial being, and what Paul believes about his Jesus is based on the Jewish Bible (pre-canonical at that point), especially end-of-days prophecies and new covenant stuff. So, yes, Paul's Jesus resembles Philo's Logos. They're drinking from the same well.

I'm glad we can agree.

Quote

That's not what's in dispute in HJ v. MJ.

Those pesky probabilities again.

 

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On 12/29/2016 at 5:35 AM, third_eye said:

Honestly for myself personally ... in the most humble manner of speaking possible ... I felt that the question is at its most weakest when its focused obsessively on JC alone in regards to the historicity of the times. There are so many other characters in the narratives that has their contributory factors to verify or dispute the inordinate lack of accuracy of the canonical Gospels. For instance, just noting the 'twelve' itself has now been proven without a doubt to be highly dubious, Simon 'Peter' Judas 'Iscariot' Thomas 'Didymus' just to mention a few ... and let's not forget the problem of the too many Marys ...

The issues about the translations to skirt the uncomfortable nuances in the original Greek has been too conveniently ignored just to perpetuate the debate.

Nazarene Nazareth Sicarii Iscariot Lestai Qannai ... I don't know why some find that a slander when its actually the most logical of the answers, it was the time when Rome was stomping on Judea and Palestine. I guess the marketing team Paul got together to sell the 'god' deal to the Hellenized Jews of Ancient Rome couldn't come up with anything better other than be economical with the truth, can't blame him though ... the Romans were notorious for being heavy handed with that kind of nonsense ~

Mark 14:17-21 (NRSV)

"17 When it was evening, he came with the twelve. 18 And when they had taken their places and were eating, Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, one of you will betray me, one who is eating with me.” 19 They began to be distressed and to say to him one after another, “Surely, not I?” 20 He said to them, “It is one of the twelve, one who is dipping bread into the bowl with me. 21 For the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that one by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that one not to have been born.” "

2 Corinthians 11:26 (NRSV)

"26 on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from bandits, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brothers and sisters;"

Psalm 41:8-10 (NRSV)

"8 They think that a deadly thing has fastened on me,
    that I will not rise again from where I lie.
9 Even my bosom friend in whom I trusted,
    who ate of my bread, has lifted the heel against me.
10 But you, O Lord, be gracious to me,
    and raise me up, that I may repay them."

Judas=Jews who are false brothers

"As an alternative etymology of Judas’s nickname ’Iskariṓt(h), one can derive it from the Hebrew/Aramaic verb šāqar/šeqar (“to lie, deceive, slander”, sc. “to violate (a treaty, etc.)”, “to betray” [the latter meaning is attested in Samaritan Aramaic]) and the same noun ’ōṯ/’ôṯ: the “one who slandered/resp. betrayed a sign” "

https://m.cyberleninka.ru/article/n/etymology-of-the-nickname-iskari-t-h-the-one-who-saw-a-sign-i-sqar-yisqar-or-the-one-who-slandered-betrayed-a-sign-i-qar-yi-qar

 

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2 minutes ago, davros of skaro said:

Mark 14:17-21 (NRSV)

"17 When it was evening, he came with the twelve. 18 And when they had taken their places and were eating, Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, one of you will betray me, one who is eating with me.” 19 They began to be distressed and to say to him one after another, “Surely, not I?” 20 He said to them, “It is one of the twelve, one who is dipping bread into the bowl with me. 21 For the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that one by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that one not to have been born.” "

Funnily enough I was reading up on that particular passage early today ... 'JC said one of you here will betray me' and there is pandemonium and protests ... then when Judas was picked out none of the the rest suddenly knows whats going on ... and Judas goes off to sell JC for 30 pieces of silver unimpeded ...

~ [ 00.06:50 ]


~

 

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If we aren't even sure of the historicity of Jesus, it seems kind of a moot point that a story about him might be fictional.

To me, these religious texts are just collections of stories meant to convey a message. The message in this one seems to be that greed shouldn't overtake the Temple. 

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9 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

If we aren't even sure of the historicity of Jesus, it seems kind of a moot point that a story about him might be fictional.

To me, these religious texts are just collections of stories meant to convey a message. The message in this one seems to be that greed shouldn't overtake the Temple. 

The problem with noting JC as totally fiction would by default render Simon Paul Thomas James Jude Matthew and the whole lot as outright liars ... that's quite and uncomfortable thought don't you think ?

I believe JC existed or at least a man (apologies to the faithful) by such a name as Joshua ben Joseph did exist ... though the life story was somewhat exaggerated as most life stories of notable figures were as treated in those days ...

~

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Just now, third_eye said:

The problem with noting JC as totally fiction would by default render Simon Paul Thomas James Jude Matthew and the whole lot as outright liars ... that's quite and uncomfortable thought don't you think ?

I believe JC existed or at least a man (apologies to the faithful) by such a name as Joshua ben Joseph did exist ... though the life story was somewhat exaggerated as most life stories of notable figures were as treated in those days ...

~

We don't even know who wrote the Gospels. 

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Just now, ChaosRose said:

We don't even know who wrote the Gospels. 

Not every and every passage but there is much and a great proportions of the letters that are verifiable as much as verify can mean in regards to documents of the day, for instance passages quoted and referenced in other sources and measured to every word to the letter ...

~

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Just now, third_eye said:

Not every and every passage but there is much and a great proportions of the letters that are verifiable as much as verify can mean in regards to documents of the day, for instance passages quoted and referenced in other sources and measured to every word to the letter ...

~

How could you possibly verify any of it? They were written, anonymously, the earliest being at least 40 years after the supposed crucifixion. And they also contradict each other.

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Honestly, at this point, people should give up the ghost on trying to verify any of it and just read them like Aesop's Fables. Stories with a message. Some of the stories are still relevant and some aren't. A lot of the tribal war stories and this one begat that one bits are just not relevant today. Other messages about love and forgiveness still resonate.

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Just now, ChaosRose said:

Honestly, at this point, people should give up the ghost on trying to verify any of it and just read them like Aesop's Fables. Stories with a message. Some of the stories are still relevant and some aren't. A lot of the tribal war stories and this one begat that one bits are just not relevant today. Other messages about love and forgiveness still resonate.

Exactly ... which is which and where and when is the issue, anyhow much of it all is actually Paul's (the Saint) interpretation of the references, much of what is attributed to JC as unique was actually old not only across the world but also in Jerusalem of the day ...

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Hillel (Hebrew: הלל; variously called Hillel HaGadol, or Hillel HaZaken, Hillel HaBavli[1] or HaBavli,.[2] was born according to tradition in Babylon c. 110 BCE, died 10 CE[3] in Jerusalem) was a famous Jewish religious leader, one of the most important figures in Jewish history. He is associated with the development of the Mishnah and the Talmud. Renowned within Judaism as a sage and scholar, he was the founder of the House of Hillel school for Tannaïm (Sages of the Mishnah) and the founder of a dynasty of Sages who stood at the head of the Jews living in the Land of Israel until roughly the fifth century of the Common Era.

~

Anyhow there is a line where veracity of the texts does not equates the veracity of the contents .. if that makes any sense ... what it does mean is that these texts were not conjured up as some fraudulent excerpts meant to deceive ... the exegesis of the studies in the historical sense ignores the theological and religious contexts totally and there is where I lay my hat.

~

 

 

Quote

 

3. Conclusion.

If the argument sketched out above is valid, any responsible reconstruction of Christian origins must find its starting-point in the first- century gospel records, not in the hints of an alternative view of Jesus contained in second-century literature from the Gnostic wing of Christianity, nor in the attempt to assimilate Jesus to non-Christian parallels in the history of religions. The four canonical gospels will not answer all the questions we would like to ask about the founder of Christianity; but, sensitively interpreted, they do give us a rounded portrait of a Jesus who is sufficiently integrated into what we know of first-century Jewish culture to carry historical conviction, but at the same time sufficiently remarkable and distinctive to account for the growth of a new and potentially world-wide religious movement out of his life and teaching.

 

 

~

  • Wiki does a great cross reference resource collection on this : wiki link

~

Bear in mind that these are the best that can be done with what there is that can be done with what is left ... and rediscovered ~

I wouldn't use the Gospels as a historical device but as a general guide of a general vista of the day, there is very little that others can provide on this perspective ~

~

 

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davros

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It's a simple premise once you separate the Epistles Paul from the fictional Acts Paul.

I only mentioned things from the Epistles, bearing on the hypothesis "Paul was persecuting this heretical sect, then started believing it."

- Paul gives no hint about how he persecuted the sect
- His supposed recent former victims didn't know his name
- We don't know that the sect was "heretical," or anything else about what they taught or practiced apart from Judaism
- Paul taught practices that the sect didn't, to people the sect didn't welcome
- Those things suffice to explain why Paul got into trouble
- Over a career that spanned decades, Paul spent little time with sect leaders, and was proud of it.

All that's from the epistles. For all that, it might still be so, but it ain't simple.

3ye

Quote

Funnily enough I was reading up on that particular passage early today ... 'JC said one of you here will betray me' and there is pandemonium and protests ... then when Judas was picked out none of the the rest suddenly knows whats going on ... and Judas goes off to sell JC for 30 pieces of silver unimpeded ...

That works on stage, though.  Here's from the film which basically records the 2000 London stage production.

One of the theories of the origins of the Gospel plot is that it came from a stage play. (Seneca is sometimes mentioned as the playwright; but "Mark" is very gifted as a storyteller and could easily have been writing for oral performance.) What you've pointed out is very theatrical.

Edited by eight bits
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30 minutes ago, eight bits said:

That works on stage, though.  Here's from the film which basically records the 2000 London stage production.

Though I do like the stage and sets of the London 2000 production, my heart will always be with the original cast of Neeley, Elliman and friends .. performance wise, honest and passionate without the glitz and glam ... also the music was played with the kind of heart as Webber and Co produced ... but that's just me I guess ~

 

30 minutes ago, eight bits said:

One of the theories of the origins of the Gospel plot is that it came from a stage play. (Seneca is sometimes mentioned as the playwright; but "Mark" is very gifted as a storyteller and could easily have been writing for oral performance.) What you've pointed out is very theatrical.

Yes, I was reading up on theater history when the Last Supper scene of JC Superstar was brought up,  wasn't Mark said to be more the Greek than most among the lot ? I don't remember all that well ...

It is no surprise though isn't it ? The Oral traditions kinda drags all the way back to Homer and all things Greek/Roman, its practically the only mode of connecting with the masses seeing that being Literate of the word isn't all that widespread in those days ...

~

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15 hours ago, eight bits said:

davros

I only mentioned things from the Epistles, bearing on the hypothesis "Paul was persecuting this heretical sect, then started believing it."

Good.

15 hours ago, eight bits said:

- Paul gives no hint about how he persecuted the sect

What he describes as the consequences for his turning is a good rough estimate. 

15 hours ago, eight bits said:

- His supposed recent former victims didn't know his name

It seems he had a reputation, but what verse do you suggest makes it clear they did not know his name?

15 hours ago, eight bits said:

- We don't know that the sect was "heretical," or anything else about what they taught or practiced apart from Judaism

It sure sounds like a stumbling block to me.

15 hours ago, eight bits said:

- Paul taught practices that the sect didn't, to people the sect didn't welcome

Paul was progressive. So what?

15 hours ago, eight bits said:

- Those things suffice to explain why Paul got into trouble

Oh come on now. It pretty much replaced the Temple Cult.

15 hours ago, eight bits said:

- Over a career that spanned decades, Paul spent little time with sect leaders, and was proud of it.

Another weird thing if there was a Jesus that taught on Earth.

15 hours ago, eight bits said:

All that's from the epistles. For all that, it might still be so, but it ain't simple.

It looks to me you're the one complicating things?

Here's some of my favorites:

Mark 1:16-17 

Jesus Calls the First Disciples

"16 And passing along by the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew the brother of Simon casting a net in the sea; for they were fishermen. 17 And Jesus said to them, “Follow me and I will make you become fishers of men.” "

Jeremiah 16:16 

"16 “Behold, I am sending for many fishers, says the Lord, and they shall catch them; and afterwards I will send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain and every hill, and out of the clefts of the rocks."

Ezekiel 47:10

"10 Fishermen will stand beside the sea; from En-ge′di to En-eg′laim it will be a place for the spreading of nets; its fish will be of very many kinds, like the fish of the Great Sea."

Mark 4:35-41

"35 On that day, when evening had come, he said to them, “Let us go across to the other side.” 36 And leaving the crowd, they took him with them in the boat, just as he was. And other boats were with him. 37 And a great storm of wind arose, and the waves beat into the boat, so that the boat was already filling. 38 But he was in the stern, asleep on the cushion; and they woke him and said to him, “Teacher, do you not care if we perish?” 39 And he awoke and rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, “Peace! Be still!” And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm. 40 He said to them, “Why are you afraid? Have you no faith?” 41 And they were filled with awe, and said to one another, “Who then is this, that even wind and sea obey him?” "

Jonah 1:1-17

Jonah Tries to Run Away from God

1 Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah son of Amittai, saying, 2 “Go at once to Nineveh, that great city, and cry out against it; for their wickedness has come up before me.” 3 But Jonah set out to flee to Tarshish from the presence of the Lord. He went down to Joppa and found a ship going to Tarshish; so he paid his fare and went on board, to go with them to Tarshish, away from the presence of the Lord.

4 But the Lord hurled a great wind upon the sea, and such a mighty storm came upon the sea that the ship threatened to break up. 5 Then the mariners were afraid, and each cried to his god. They threw the cargo that was in the ship into the sea, to lighten it for them. Jonah, meanwhile, had gone down into the hold of the ship and had lain down, and was fast asleep. 6 The captain came and said to him, “What are you doing sound asleep? Get up, call on your god! Perhaps the god will spare us a thought so that we do not perish.”

7 The sailors[a] said to one another, “Come, let us cast lots, so that we may know on whose account this calamity has come upon us.” So they cast lots, and the lot fell on Jonah. 8 Then they said to him, “Tell us why this calamity has come upon us. What is your occupation? Where do you come from? What is your country? And of what people are you?” 9 “I am a Hebrew,” he replied. “I worship the Lord, the God of heaven, who made the sea and the dry land.” 10 Then the men were even more afraid, and said to him, “What is this that you have done!” For the men knew that he was fleeing from the presence of the Lord, because he had told them so.

11 Then they said to him, “What shall we do to you, that the sea may quiet down for us?” For the sea was growing more and more tempestuous. 12 He said to them, “Pick me up and throw me into the sea; then the sea will quiet down for you; for I know it is because of me that this great storm has come upon you.” 13 Nevertheless the men rowed hard to bring the ship back to land, but they could not, for the sea grew more and more stormy against them. 14 Then they cried out to the Lord, “Please, O Lord, we pray, do not let us perish on account of this man’s life. Do not make us guilty of innocent blood; for you, O Lord, have done as it pleased you.” 15 So they picked Jonah up and threw him into the sea; and the sea ceased from its raging. 16 Then the men feared the Lord even more, and they offered a sacrifice to the Lord and made vows.

17 But the Lord provided a large fish to swallow up Jonah; and Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights."

Psalm 107:23-29

"23 Some went down to the sea in ships,
doing business on the mighty waters;
24 they saw the deeds of the Lord,
his wondrous works in the deep.
25 For he commanded and raised the stormy wind,
which lifted up the waves of the sea.
26 They mounted up to heaven, they went down to the depths;
their courage melted away in their calamity;
27 they reeled and staggered like drunkards,
and were at their wits’ end.
28 Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble,
and he brought them out from their distress;
29 he made the storm be still,
and the waves of the sea were hushed."

Mark 9:48

"48 where their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched."

Isaiah 66:24

"24 And they shall go out and look at the dead bodies of the people who have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

Mark 10:13-14

"13 People were bringing little children to him in order that he might touch them; and the disciples spoke sternly to them. 14 But when Jesus saw this, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the little children come to me; do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of God belongs."

2 Kings 4:26-27

"26 run at once to meet her, and say to her, Are you all right? Is your husband all right? Is the child all right?” She answered, “It is all right.” 27 When she came to the man of God at the mountain, she caught hold of his feet. Gehazi approached to push her away. But the man of God said, “Let her alone, for she is in bitter distress; the Lord has hidden it from me and has not told me.” "

Mark 7:28-29

"28 But she answered him, “Sir, even the dogs under the table eat the children’s crumbs.” 29 Then he said to her, “For saying that, you may go—the demon has left your daughter.” "

2 Kings 8:13-14

"13 Hazael said, “What is your servant, who is a mere dog, that he should do this great thing?” Elisha answered, “The Lord has shown me that you are to be king over Aram.” 14 Then he left Elisha, and went to his master Ben-hadad, who said to him, “What did Elisha say to you?” And he answered, “He told me that you would certainly recover.” "

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davros

Quote

What he describes as the consequences for his turning is a good rough estimate.

For the scope of his earlier career as a persecutor?  I don't think so. Paul is absurdly self-important. Whatever Paul does is a big deal in Paul's estimation. The only specific "persecution" thing he cops to is hatred of the sect (and he hasn't exactly fallen in love with them since turning, either).

If Paul's Jesus might exist only in the Third Heaven, then his "persecution" may have occurred only in the Third Heaven, too. Maybe Paul dissed Cephas and James to Gabriel and Michael, or even to Jesus himself. Powerful mojo that is; lucky for Rocky and Jimbo that Paul turned.

Acts, fiction or not, imagines a single day of overt action, that action being holding the coats of those who stoned Stephen (say what?), and then joining in an anti-Christian riot later that day. Paul did solicit a sternly worded note from the Temple to the Jews of Damascus, but didn't manage to deliver the note. And that's it; the whole career.

Quote

It seems he had a reputation, but what verse do you suggest makes it clear they did not know his name?

Galatians 1: 22-24

And I was unknown personally (prosopo - literally "by face") to the churches of Judea that are in Christ; they only kept hearing that the one (ho - not "he," but "the one," definite article and unnamed) who once was persecuting us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy. So they glorified God because of me.

Quote

It sure sounds like a stumbling block to me.

What does? We have no indication that the sect ever did anything blatantly "unJewish." Even in Acts, it is at best vague what the problem was.

Quote

Paul was progressive. So what?

The hypothesis being discussed is that Paul came to believe what the sect believed. They weren't "progressive," not according to Paul's letters anyway.

Quote

Oh come on now. It pretty much replaced the Temple Cult.

Says who? That building Titus destroyed in 70 seemed to have been fully operational right up until the Romans torched it. Josephus had been working there a generation after Paul turned; Joe never once mentions the sect as having had any adverse effect on revenue.

Paul taught a new, apparently non-sacrificial, covenant. That doesn't mean Rocky and Jimbo agreed. In fact, early Christian tradition about Jimbo was that he spent so much time praying in the Temple, his knees were like a camel's.

Quote

Another weird thing if there was a Jesus that taught on Earth.

Maybe not so weird, succession is a hard problem in any movement. Look at Mohammed's death. You had "followers" who dropped out because their loyalty was to him personally and so for them there was no subsequent legitimate movement at all, others who claimed leadership because they were kin or in-laws, and still others because they were close companions in life.

To that disparate mix of possible succession scenarios, Paul adds a wild card, that Paul could still talk to Jesus, and Jesus said that Paul was the cat's pajamas.

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