Occult Origins of the Nazis

[Sahir]

Won't have the time today to provide all the sources to my earlier post. But will try, over the weekend, to find the English version of the initiation rituals document used by the Germanenorden. 

In the meantime, suggest reading some of the chapters in this book, as it is very interesting. 

The Occult Roots of Nazism

by 

Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke

"Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke (15 January 1953 – 29 August 2012) was a British historian and professor of Western Esotericism at University of Exeter, best known for his authorship of several scholarly books on esoteric traditions."

[Carnoferox]

1 hour ago, Sahir said:

Won't have the time today to provide all the sources to my earlier post. But will try, over the weekend, to find the English version of the initiation rituals document used by the Germanenorden. 

In the meantime, suggest reading some of the chapters in this book, as it is very interesting. 

The Occult Roots of Nazism

by 

Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke

"Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke (15 January 1953 – 29 August 2012) was a British historian and professor of Western Esotericism at University of Exeter, best known for his authorship of several scholarly books on esoteric traditions."

Thanks for the useful information. I will look forward to further sources.

[GlitterRose]

"As far as I know, some of the ideas of the Nazis (Aryan master race, German homeland, etc.) originated with Ariosophy and the volkisch movements. I would just like to learn more about them."

Historians argue over the origins, but no actual historian is arguing occultism was a factor. Nationalism, yes. Instability, yes. Militarism, yes.

Historians have long debated the origins of Nazism. One common interpretation is that Nazism was a new development, a creature borne during the trouble period after World War I. It was fuelled by post-war political instability and the economic suffering of the 1920s; the Weimar period was hampered by conditions that allowed Nazism to take root and grow like a malignant tumour. This idea is supported by the rise of totalitarianism in other places. The interwar period is often called the ‘age of dictators’ because there were several, including Stalin in Soviet Russia, Mussolini in Italy and Franco in Spain. But arguing that Nazism was just an angry political reaction to difficult conditions is also simplistic. The origins of Nazi ideas are complex and more deeply rooted in German history. Core elements of Nazi ideology, such as militarism and pan-German nationalism, can be traced back to the mid-1800s. At this stage of history there was no German nation, only a cluster of 26 German-speaking kingdoms, duchies and city-states. But there was also a growing nationalist movement that demanded the unification of these regions into a greater German nation. A unified Germany, they argued, could stand against France, Russia and Britain and claim its rightful place as a European power. This German nationalism, voiced mainly by writers and radical politicians, was strong, impatient and demanding. It also had a darker side, since many of these nationalists were vehement anti-Semites; they often blamed a Jewish conspiracy for sabotaging or holding back German unification.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjqgIrsuL_RAhWqq1QKHSC-D7AQFggkMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Falphahistory.com%2Fnazigermany%2Fthe-origins-of-nazism%2F&usg=AFQjCNElj3EZCsyZhLKms9uKvJipr9ToSA

[Sahir]

1 hour ago, ChaosRose said:

"As far as I know, some of the ideas of the Nazis (Aryan master race, German homeland, etc.) originated with Ariosophy and the volkisch movements. I would just like to learn more about them."

Historians argue over the origins, but no actual historian is arguing occultism was a factor. Nationalism, yes. Instability, yes. Militarism, yes.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjqgIrsuL_RAhWqq1QKHSC-D7AQFggkMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Falphahistory.com%2Fnazigermany%2Fthe-origins-of-nazism%2F&usg=AFQjCNElj3EZCsyZhLKms9uKvJipr9ToSA

Suggest you read the entire article in your link.  Also suggest reading the chapter on the Germanenorden in the book The Occult Roots in Nazism. Here you read and see the building blocks of Nazism.  

From your own link. 

"Nazism was also strongly influenced by the grass volkisch movement. Volkisch groups embraced ethnic nationalism, believing the German people were linked together by Aryan blood, shared history and connections with the land. There were   dozens of smaller volkisch organisations, most of them concentrated in rural areas and often operating in secret. These volkischgroups were traditionalist, politically conservative and sometimes embraced mythical or superstitious ideas about race or culture. They despised outsiders and outside ideas, including communism, industrial capitalism and democracy. Many volkischgroups – like Tatkreis and the infamous Thule Society – became feeder groups for the emerging NSDAP. Several powerful Nazis, including Rudolf Hess and Hermann Goering, are believed to have been members of the Thule Society before joining the Nazi movement."

The German Occult groups in the early 20th century were a factor.  I understand your skepticism. You think it's some kind of conspiracy, but it's not. The ideology of Nazism was heavily influenced by the aforementioned secret societies. It is a very complex matter however Goodrick-Clarke demonstrates quite well how these occult societies inspired the ideology which was followed by Hitler's nazi Germany.  

As previously said, give the chapter a go. It also have the needed references, so you can validate it for yourself. 

Its pretty scary how a bunch of crazy people like Hess, Goebels, Himmler and Hitler were able to take political control over a nation. The Nazi party didn't even have the majority of the German people votes, when they by law took the control of the German Nation. 

Its crazy, but it's not a conspiracy. Have invested several hundred hours of research into this, with a very skeptical mind. However it's all there in the historical records, they didn't succeed in burning everything. 

Anyway cannot find an English version of the promised document. If UM have any German speaking members which wish to translate, then PM me. 

 

Edited January 13, 2017 by Sahir

[Khaemwaset]

AFAIK the above ref. book: Occult Roots of Nazism,  linked to by Safir, is the most reliable go to source right now.  Another tome might be The Occult and the Third Reich by Jean Michel Angebert (a pastiche of two French authors), from 1974, which is interesting but translated versions are out of print and hard to find.  There is also The Rainbow Swastika by Hannah Newman.  Others I can think of off hand are considered sketchy, to be kind.

I look forward to reading others' suggestions.

[Carnoferox]

As a said earlier, I read Invisible Eagle: The History of Nazi Occultism by Alan Baker (the whole book can be found here: https://wikispooks.com/w/images/3/39/Invisible_Eagle.pdf). I am not sure of its overall reliability, though.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Carnoferox

[Sahir]

19 minutes ago, Carnoferox said:

As a said earlier, I read Invisible Eagle: The History of Nazi Occultism by Alan Baker (the whole book can be found here: https://wikispooks.com/w/images/3/39/Invisible_Eagle.pdf). I am not sure of its overall reliability, though.

I know of the book, however have always been a bit skeptical of this book. The main issue i have is that the book does not reference the primary sources. Look at the reference section, it's quite bad in my opinion. 

[GlitterRose]

21 hours ago, Sahir said:

Suggest you read the entire article in your link.  Also suggest reading the chapter on the Germanenorden in the book The Occult Roots in Nazism. Here you read and see the building blocks of Nazism.  

From your own link. 

"Nazism was also strongly influenced by the grass volkisch movement. Volkisch groups embraced ethnic nationalism, believing the German people were linked together by Aryan blood, shared history and connections with the land. There were   dozens of smaller volkisch organisations, most of them concentrated in rural areas and often operating in secret. These volkischgroups were traditionalist, politically conservative and sometimes embraced mythical or superstitious ideas about race or culture. They despised outsiders and outside ideas, including communism, industrial capitalism and democracy. Many volkischgroups – like Tatkreis and the infamous Thule Society – became feeder groups for the emerging NSDAP. Several powerful Nazis, including Rudolf Hess and Hermann Goering, are believed to have been members of the Thule Society before joining the Nazi movement."

The German Occult groups in the early 20th century were a factor.  I understand your skepticism. You think it's some kind of conspiracy, but it's not. The ideology of Nazism was heavily influenced by the aforementioned secret societies. It is a very complex matter however Goodrick-Clarke demonstrates quite well how these occult societies inspired the ideology which was followed by Hitler's nazi Germany.  

As previously said, give the chapter a go. It also have the needed references, so you can validate it for yourself. 

Its pretty scary how a bunch of crazy people like Hess, Goebels, Himmler and Hitler were able to take political control over a nation. The Nazi party didn't even have the majority of the German people votes, when they by law took the control of the German Nation. 

Its crazy, but it's not a conspiracy. Have invested several hundred hours of research into this, with a very skeptical mind. However it's all there in the historical records, they didn't succeed in burning everything. 

Anyway cannot find an English version of the promised document. If UM have any German speaking members which wish to translate, then PM me. 

 

Again, being nationalistic and superstitious doesn't mean "occult origins." You could say that the religious right is superstitious and embraces the mythical. That doesn't mean that they have occult origins. 

Occult simply means hidden. You could say that many groups seek out what they deem to be hidden knowledge. That doesn't mean they are occult in origin. They had an ideology first, and then some of them embraced elements of the occult. 

People usually have their prejudices first, and then they seek out anything they can use to try to validate them. It's not generally the other way around.

That last bolded bit is especially relevant today. 

Edited January 14, 2017 by ChaosRose

[Doc Socks Junior]

Keep digging, Rose, keep digging.

Occult does not "simply mean hidden" in current usage. If it did, all scientific research would be said to heavily focus on the occult. Occult has a specifically paranormal/mystic connotation.

Just because you didn't read your whole link doesn't mean you need to vehemently defend the mistake.

[GlitterRose]

10 minutes ago, Socks Junior said:

Keep digging, Rose, keep digging.

Occult does not "simply mean hidden" in current usage. If it did, all scientific research would be said to heavily focus on the occult. Occult has a specifically paranormal/mystic connotation.

Just because you didn't read your whole link doesn't mean you need to vehemently defend the mistake.

If you read the bolded parts, the link actually verifies what I've said.

Nazism was also strongly influenced by...does not mean its origins were the Volkisch movement.

Currently, people apply occult to the paranormal, but its original meaning is hidden. Hidden knowledge. 

Edited January 14, 2017 by ChaosRose

[Sahir]

20 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

Again, being nationalistic and superstitious doesn't mean "occult origins." You could say that the religious right is superstitious and embraces the mythical. That doesn't mean that they have occult origins. 

Occult simply means hidden. You could say that many groups seek out what they deem to be hidden knowledge. That doesn't mean they are occult in origin. They had an ideology first, and then some of them embraced elements of the occult. 

People usually have their prejudices first, and then they seek out anything they can use to try to validate them. It's not generally the other way around.

That last bolded bit is especially relevant today. 

"Occult simply means hidden."

Not true. 

"You could say that many groups seek out what they deem to be hidden knowledge. That doesn't mean they are occult in origin. They had an ideology first, and then some of them embraced elements of the occult. 

People usually have their prejudices first, and then they seek out anything they can use to try to validate them. It's not generally the other way around."

Someone clearly doesn't like to be told they are wrong. 

In post 28, you state:

"Historians argue over the origins, but no actual historian is arguing occultism was a factor. Nationalism, yes. Instability, yes. Militarism, yes."

Just answer one simple question, so I know I am not wasting my time. 

Do you believe, German 20th century occult groups, influenced the ideology used by the Nazi party? 

 

[GlitterRose]

2 minutes ago, Sahir said:

"Occult simply means hidden."

Not true. 

"You could say that many groups seek out what they deem to be hidden knowledge. That doesn't mean they are occult in origin. They had an ideology first, and then some of them embraced elements of the occult. 

People usually have their prejudices first, and then they seek out anything they can use to try to validate them. It's not generally the other way around."

Someone clearly doesn't like to be told they are wrong. 

In post 28, you state:

"Historians argue over the origins, but no actual historian is arguing occultism was a factor. Nationalism, yes. Instability, yes. Militarism, yes."

Just answer one simple question, so I know I am not wasting my time. 

Do you believe, German 20th century occult groups, influenced the ideology used by the Nazi party? 

 

Again...we're arguing origins. Lots of historians say that occultism influenced Nazism. They don't say Nazism originated from the occult. That's the difference I don't think people are seeing. 

The ideologies of militarism and nationalism existed, and in response to instability. Those people who felt strongly about those ideologies clearly sought out anything they thought could bolster their ideas. Hitler even used the bible, but you can hardly say the bible was the origins of Nazism.

Edited January 14, 2017 by ChaosRose

[Doc Socks Junior]

4 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

If you read the bolded parts, the link actually verifies what I've said.

Currently, people apply occult to the paranormal, but its original meaning is hidden. Hidden knowledge. 

First, it doesn't verify what you said. You believe it can be skewed into your interpretation of it. That's different.

Second, if that's how it is currently used, as you admit, that is likely the way your link is using it. Can't have your cake and eat it. 

[GlitterRose]

1 minute ago, Socks Junior said:

First, it doesn't verify what you said. You believe it can be skewed into your interpretation of it. That's different.

Second, if that's how it is currently used, as you admit, that is likely the way your link is using it. Can't have your cake and eat it. 

No, not skewed. Influenced by does not mean originated. You can try and make it so, but it still isn't. 

Like I've stated before, people with prejudices seek out anything that will bolster their ideology. Hitler even used the bible to bolster his prejudice against Jews, (specifically, the New Testament). You can hardly say that Christianity was the origin of Nazism. 

 

[Doc Socks Junior]

3 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

No, not skewed. Influenced by does not mean originated. You can try and make it so, but it still isn't. 

Like I've stated before, people with prejudices seek out anything that will bolster their ideology. Hitler even used the bible to bolster his prejudice against Jews, (specifically, the New Testament). You can hardly say that Christianity was the origin of Nazism. 

 

Given that your own link states that at least several prominent Nazis -began- as members of societies under discussion in this thread, -originated- is an accurate descriptor. 

Flawed analogy. But a telling one.

[Sahir]

14 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

Again...we're arguing origins. Lots of historians say that occultism influenced Nazism. They don't say Nazism originated from the occult. That's the difference I don't think people are seeing. 

The ideologies of militarism and nationalism existed, and in response to instability. Those people who felt strongly about those ideologies clearly sought out anything they thought could bolster their ideas. Hitler even used the bible, but you can hardly say the bible was the origins of Nazism.

Suggest you read the bit about Germany in Antisemitism: A Historical Encyclopedia of Prejudice and Persecution 

Here you will see how antisemitism originated in Germany. One aspect of the Nazi ideology, which was heavily influenced by the early occult groups in the 20th Century.  

The antisemitism among the general public didn't start until after World War One. As Jews got the blame for Germany's defeat and the Versaille Treaty.  

[SHaYap]

I believe antisemitism started much further back than just from the days where it was politicized by Nazi Germany ...

I guess its how one defines the character of prejudice and how it is expressed through actions ... according to Max I Dimont and his Jews, God and History pdf

Quote

1700 - 1800 The Frankist heresy. Rise of Hasidism. Deterioration of Jewish learning. Beginnings of psychological anti-Semitism

~

[GlitterRose]

It's easy to point to beliefs that aren't yours as the root of all evil. That's what ethnocentrism and xenophobia are all about.