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Has science PROVED God exists?


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2 hours ago, simplybill said:

With all due respect, Emma, atheists don't own Science. It belongs to all of us.

No it doesn't, nor is it anything to do with atheism. Science "belongs" to those that use it properly, within the framework of the scientific method. If it isn't used correctly, it ceases to function as a method.

You cannot claim that something is outside the realm of scientific enquiry and then in the same breath say that personal experience is evidence of something like God. 

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Well, the authority of the Bible is the Bible itself. The Bible is true because the Bible says it's true. This is the same with all religions. There is no external supporting evidence.

Holy Books have no authority unless we give them authority by our belief in them. This belief is a product of our personal imagination.Where else in the mind does this belief exist?

This is the opposite of the scientific method. Unless cognitive science can quantify what exists in the imagination by verifiable objective empirical observation,. I do not expect science to prove the existence of any God of religion.

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1 hour ago, Emma_Acid said:

 Science "belongs" to those that use it properly, within the framework of the scientific method. If it isn't used correctly, it ceases to function as a method.

 

I agree, and I looked up 'Scientific Method' on Wikipedia to be sure we're on the same page. I found this quote interesting:

"In general, the strongest tests of hypotheses come from carefully controlled and replicated experiments that gather empirical data. Depending on how well the tests match the predictions, the original hypothesis may require refinement, alteration, expansion or even rejection. If a particular hypothesis becomes very well supported a general theory may be developed."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

In the Vaccine thread I gave the example of Vitamin E research:

"A 400 mg. daily supplement of Vitamin E was recommended to reduce the risk of having a heart attack. The recommendation was backed by scientific research. Every drugstore in the US put bottles of Vitamin E on their shelves. And then came the announcement that further research indicated an increase of heart attacks from Vitamin E supplements."

From CBS News:

"The news about vitamin E will be surprising to many people because the vitamin was so widely touted for its ability to reduce the risk of heart disease, says Miller. At one point, doctors used to recommend that patients take vitamin E."

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/vitamin-e-may-shorten-life/

The Scientific Method worked exactly as planned.  Research was done, recommendations were made, further research found that the original research was incorrect, and the conclusions were refined and altered.  Unfortunately, people died.

Yes, conclusions are refined and altered, and I myself am willing to refine and alter my assertion that "it will always be impossible to prove spiritual matters with material tools" at some future date, because 100 years from now Physicists may discover that it is indeed possible to prove beyond any doubt that God exists. In the meantime, millions of people will have died while trusting their eternal fate to the Scientific Method.

If the preponderance of evidence convinces someone that God doesn't exist, that's their decision, but they should be expected to refine their beliefs as the Scientific Method proceeds. In the meantime, I'll suggest to people that some of the evidence points to the possibility of an Intelligent Designer, and I'll offer Judeo/Christian Ideology as a viable means of further research. Judeo/Christian Ideology, when held accountable to its own principles, is the ideology that has led us to the greatest amount of freedom and justice for the greatest number of people. World history has shown that it actually works in real life. 

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6 minutes ago, simplybill said:

~SNIP~

Judeo/Christian Ideology, when held accountable to its own principles, is the ideology that has led us to the greatest amount of freedom and justice for the greatest number of people. World history has shown that it actually works in real life. 

What is your evidence that Judeo-Christian ideology has ever truly been held accountable to its own principles? Such ideology has been used often over the past 2000 years to conquer, control and where some deemed necessary obliterate entire cultures in the purported name of "freedom, justice or even salvation". Even where such ideology proved ineffective in your claimed endeavour it was still used as an excuse to treat others in a less than Judeo-Christian fashion. In short, it has often failed under its own hypocrisy.

cormac

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Martin Luther, for example. He helped people to come to their senses and reject the theocracy of the misguided Catholic Church.

In modern times, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. helped us in American society come to our senses and ensure equal rights for all citizens.

History is a record of "two steps forward, one step back".

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10 hours ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

Atheism of the gaps.

That made no sense.

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7 hours ago, simplybill said:

The Scientific Method worked exactly as planned.  Research was done, recommendations were made, further research found that the original research was incorrect, and the conclusions were refined and altered.  Unfortunately, people died.

Yes, conclusions are refined and altered, and I myself am willing to refine and alter my assertion that "it will always be impossible to prove spiritual matters with material tools" at some future date, because 100 years from now Physicists may discover that it is indeed possible to prove beyond any doubt that God exists. In the meantime, millions of people will have died while trusting their eternal fate to the Scientific Method.

Eh, what? Firstly, the god as described in the bible (basically everything and everywhere) is impossible to prove scientifically. It is unfalsifiable. Secondly, I'm at a loss to respond to your "in the meantime, millions of people will have died while trusting their eternal fate to the Scientific Method" statement. Are you seriously suggesting that people should just trust in god instead??

I think I'm on to a loser with this argument already.

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I'm suggesting people should trust in God, while also enjoying the knowledge we gain from science. Science and belief in God are not mutually exclusive.

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18 hours ago, TruthSeeker_ said:
On 1/21/2017 at 9:47 AM, Rlyeh said:

When did his theory suggest a higher power?

I understood it only suggested the limitations of axioms.

18 hours ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

Atheism of the gaps.

Limitations of..I like that word axiom, Axioms, sayings said over and over and over, that are widely accepted which might obviously be revealed to have no merit tomorrow.

15 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Arguing against belief is like trying to punch a cloud.

Yes but if you can show that punching of a cloud again, and -- others can also, replicate this punching of a cloud, viola! can't stand friendcheese words like I was talking about a Stradivarius, Wa-lah! but sometimes they're the perfect quality descriptor.  Actually scratch that punching of a cloud, that's just silly but I fully get your meaning Hammer.

17 hours ago, simplybill said:
17 hours ago, Emma_Acid said:

Not sure how many times I'm going to have to have this sort of conversation on this forum.

A "personal encounter" isn't proof of anything.

That's my point. It can't be proven. One must weigh the available evidence, decide for himself/herself if it points to the existence of a Creator, and then decide if a spiritual conversion is the choice they want to make.

Sound. No riddles no ambiguity.

Two bits: Church for some is comforting, also good for kids and kittens but I'm quite sure they know(after growing up) its a social and comfort thing for some.

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13 hours ago, simplybill said:

Martin Luther, for example. He helped people to come to their senses and reject the theocracy of the misguided Catholic Church.

In modern times, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. helped us in American society come to our senses and ensure equal rights for all citizens.

History is a record of "two steps forward, one step back".

Tell it to the people who died because of Judeo-Christian ideology during the Middle Ages in general; the Inquisition, the Crusades (all of them); the French Wars of Religion and 30 Years War which themselves were responsible for an estimated 10+ million deaths, the Native Americans of North, Central and South America at the onset of Western European colonization clear up to the late 1800's/early 1900's who in many cases were exterminated, every pagan country around the globe that was forced or otherwise strongly influenced to convert to Christianity or suffer the consequences no matter how long it took. I don't think they'd appreciate your revisionist history.

He did? Perhaps you can explain that to the poor in America who realize there's a lot of truth to the saying "Money talks and bullscheise walks". Also, explain to them why as legal American citizens they should be overshadowed by the "rights" of and benefits given to illegal immigrants? Explain to women why they get paid less for often doing the same job a man gets paid more for. Yeah, it's a lot less equal than you'd like us to believe.

In many ways it's more like "two steps forward, three steps back".

cormac

 

Edited by cormac mac airt
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4 hours ago, simplybill said:

I'm suggesting people should trust in God, while also enjoying the knowledge we gain from science. Science and belief in God are not mutually exclusive.

That would be the Judeo-Christian one then? The one (Yahweh) who originally was part of an already extant pantheon (that of the Midianites) and was co-opted by the early Hebrews before being merged with the Canaanite god El, from a completely different pantheon? The one, again Yahweh, who was never a Creator deity to begin with but whose origin was reworked by those same Hebrews making him "the Creator"? Yeah, that's not exactly a point in your favor either. 

cormac

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37 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Tell it to the people who died because of Judeo-Christian ideology during the Middle Ages in general; the Inquisition, the Crusades (all of them); the French Wars of Religion and 30 Years War which themselves were responsible for an estimated 10+ million deaths, the Native Americans of North, Central and South America at the onset of Western European colonization clear up to the late 1800's/early 1900's who in many cases were exterminated, every pagan country around the globe that was forced or otherwise strongly influenced to convert to Christianity or suffer the consequences no matter how long it took. I don't think they'd appreciate your revisionist history.

He did? Perhaps you can explain that to the poor in America who realize there's a lot of truth to the saying "Money talks and bullscheise walks". Also, explain to them why as legal American citizens they should be overshadowed by the "rights" of and benefits given to illegal immigrants? Explain to women why they get paid less for often doing the same job a man gets paid more for. Yeah, it's a lot less equal than you'd like us to believe.

In many ways it's more like "two steps forward, three steps back".

cormac

 

That's my point. When Christianity is co-opted for devious purposes, then those of us Jews and Christians who haven't been misled must stand up and oppose the false teaching. Teachers, politicians, clergy...anyone professing to be followers of Jesus or Yahweh should be held accountable to the teachings of Jesus (or the Torah) .

Think of the Christians sent to concentration camps for opposing the Nazis, or the Europeans who were burned at the stake for opposing the Catholic clergy who used their positions to enrich themselves, or the young men in Dr. King's movement who were murdered for registering Black voters. There's always a price to be paid for standing against injustice, whether the injustice originates in the church or the halls of government.    

22 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

That would be the Judeo-Christian one then? The one (Yahweh) who originally was part of an already extant pantheon (that of the Midianites) and was co-opted by the early Hebrews before being merged with the Canaanite god El, from a completely different pantheon? The one, again Yahweh, who was never a Creator deity to begin with but whose origin was reworked by those same Hebrews making him "the Creator"? Yeah, that's not exactly a point in your favor either. 

Cormac

Even if you don't believe in a Deity, you can study world history (or a world map) and see that Judeo/Christian ideology, when held accountable to its own principles, is the ideology that has given us the greatest amount of freedom and justice for the greatest number of people. Where are the Midianites? Where are the Canaanites? Is there any group of people in the world that rallies under the cry  "For El and Country!"?  Judeo/Christian ideology has withstood the test of time, not only for its principles, but for its longevity. Its here because it works in real life for real people, right now, today. 

 

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25 minutes ago, simplybill said:

That's my point. When Christianity is co-opted for devious purposes, then those of us Jews and Christians who haven't been misled must stand up and oppose the false teaching. Teachers, politicians, clergy...anyone professing to be followers of Jesus or Yahweh should be held accountable to the teachings of Jesus (or the Torah) .

Think of the Christians sent to concentration camps for opposing the Nazis, or the Europeans who were burned at the stake for opposing the Catholic clergy who used their positions to enrich themselves, or the young men in Dr. King's movement who were murdered for registering Black voters. There's always a price to be paid for standing against injustice, whether the injustice originates in the church or the halls of government.    

Even if you don't believe in a Deity, you can study world history (or a world map) and see that Judeo/Christian ideology, when held accountable to its own principles, is the ideology that has given us the greatest amount of freedom and justice for the greatest number of people. Where are the Midianites? Where are the Canaanites? Is there any group of people in the world that rallies under the cry  "For El and Country!"?  Judeo/Christian ideology has withstood the test of time, not only for its principles, but for its longevity. Its here because it works in real life for real people, right now, today. 

Your point is diametrically opposed to the fact that Christianity has been co-opted for most of its existance, to mean what those in power wish it to mean. An example, here or there, of its "better nature" doesn't invalidate that fact. 

Oh please, that's a bunch of religious claptrap. In many, and possibly most, cases many Native Americans (as an example) were slaughtered outright with no regard to whether they were "standing against injustice". The only thing that mattered was that they had land that others wanted and those others would go to any lengths to acquire it, and be excused for doing so. 

It's been the religious equivalent of a "scorched earth" policy. If you take pride in excusing that then it says more about you, and not favorably, than it does about representing Christianity as a godsend to humanity. Judeo-Christianity was used to manipulate people in order for sway them to do its will well before any of its "better nature" was ever employed. That people in general have excused the lie in favor of the fantasy says more about them then it does about any better nature that humanity may have. It's nothing more than selective amnesia IMO.

cormac

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6 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

Your point is diametrically opposed to the fact that Christianity has been co-opted for most of its existance, to mean what those in power wish it to mean. An example, here or there, of its "better nature" doesn't invalidate that fact. 

Oh please, that's a bunch of religious claptrap. In many, and possibly most, cases many Native Americans (as an example) were slaughtered outright with no regard to whether they were "standing against injustice". The only thing that mattered was that they had land that others wanted and those others would go to any lengths to acquire it, and be excused for doing so. 

It's been the religious equivalent of a "scorched earth" policy. If you take pride in excusing that then it says more about you, and not favorably, than it does about representing Christianity as a godsend to humanity. Judeo-Christianity was used to manipulate people in order for sway them to do its will well before any of its "better nature" was ever employed. That people in general have excused the lie in favor of the fantasy says more about them then it does about any better nature that humanity may have. It's nothing more than selective amnesia IMO.

cormac

Cormac -  Yes there was corruption in some parts of the Catholic church after the destruction of the Roman Empire, but there were also monasteries filled with men who preserved a great deal of Roman and Greek literature. In spite of the corruption, the Catholic church preserved an infrastructure that kept less advanced, tribal invaders from overrunning all of Europe. Following that, the Renaissance was fueled partly with the preserved knowledge that was protected by the monasteries.

What makes you think it was Christians who slaughtered the Indians? Our U.S. government was founded on Judeo/Christian principles, but that doesn't make it a Church. It's disingenuous to blame the ills of society on people that are remotely connected to Judeo/Christian ideology, and then allege that they're all Christian. That's like saying Ted Bundy went to law school, therefore all serial killers are lawyers. 

Even today, Judeo/Christianity acts as a preservative for society. Look at a world map, and note the countries that reject Judeo/Christian ethics. Look what's happening to the U.S. as we reject Judeo/Christian ethics. Former Pres. Obama said it himself: "We're no longer just a Christian nation." Okay, that's fine, let's see how it works out. We could probably get a few pointers from Europe, because they delved into the multi-cultural experiment before we did. 

I'm still kind of in awe that even Russia can tell the difference in U.S. society as we reject Judeo/Christian ideology. Just a few days ago, the Russian Foreign Minister criticized the U.S. for trying to export a liberal post-Christian ideology that certainly isn't making the world a better place to live.

By the way, I'm not Catholic. I have Catholic friends who are good Christian people, but I'm not into the robes and rituals of Orthodox religions. To each his own, I guess.

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On 1/22/2017 at 6:09 AM, freetoroam said:

I was trying to read this, and I have not the foggiest what it means....can`t we just say Roger Daltrey is GOD, makes much more sense to me.

We cannot because his musical style is too far removed from Dave Gilmour's (God's Guitarist) 

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1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

We cannot because his musical style is too far removed from Dave Gilmour's (God's Guitarist) 

damn I thought Garcia was.:wacko:

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26 minutes ago, khol said:

damn I thought Garcia was.:wacko:

As fine as he is, I have seen Gilmour touted as Gods Guitarist a few times, but the latest album might require some reconciliation!

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Quote

What makes you think it was Christians who slaughtered the Indians? Our U.S. government was founded on Judeo/Christian principles, but that doesn't make it a Church. It's disingenuous to blame the ills of society on people that are remotely connected to Judeo/Christian ideology, and then allege that they're all Christian. That's like saying Ted Bundy went to law school, therefore all serial killers are lawyers. 

What makes you think it wasn't? As an example, in the 84 lines of my family tree that immigrated to America to escape religious persecution from Europe, mostly before we even had a government, every single one of them was responsible at some point thereafter for encroaching on Native American lands or settling on NA lands that had been recently "acquired" and taking what they wanted. And I'm not talking about over just a couple of hundred years. Of those 84 lines 59 migrated to America in the 1600s (the earliest being 1610), 23 in the 1700's and 2 in the 1800s. I have dozens of stories of how my various ancestors were amongst those who defeated the "savages" and fewer of how they lived in peace. It's not something I'm especially proud of but it is part of my family history. On the flip side I also have a small amount of Native American ancestry and have researched what they once enjoyed as their traditional lands and their populations compared to what they have now, it's sickening. And in all of this I'm not remotely the only one to have seen this happen just within their own family. That you either don't know about any of it, or wish to turn a blind eye to it, will never make it go away.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt
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Title seems inappropriate.

More like "A Theist came up with a Theist Philosophy". 

:sleepy: 

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On 1/22/2017 at 1:27 PM, Emma_Acid said:

Fixed it for you

either way is correct.  you can't prove spirit unless god wants you too with or without tools.

 

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13 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

What makes you think it wasn't? As an example, in the 84 lines of my family tree that immigrated to America to escape religious persecution from Europe, mostly before we even had a government, every single one of them was responsible at some point thereafter for encroaching on Native American lands or settling on NA lands that had been recently "acquired" and taking what they wanted. And I'm not talking about over just a couple of hundred years. Of those 84 lines 59 migrated to America in the 1600s (the earliest being 1610), 23 in the 1700's and 2 in the 1800s. I have dozens of stories of how my various ancestors were amongst those who defeated the "savages" and fewer of how they lived in peace. It's not something I'm especially proud of but it is part of my family history. On the flip side I also have a small amount of Native American ancestry and have researched what they once enjoyed as their traditional lands and their populations compared to what they have now, it's sickening. And in all of this I'm not remotely the only one to have seen this happen just within their own family. That you either don't know about any of it, or wish to turn a blind eye to it, will never make it go away.

cormac

actually most of the indians were wiped out from diseases like small pox.

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7 minutes ago, danielost said:

actually most of the indians were wiped out from diseases like small pox.

Which was introduced to them by Europeans. Figures also vary vastly with anywhere between 30% - 70%.

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On 1/23/2017 at 1:07 PM, simplybill said:

 Where are the Midianites? Where are the Canaanites? Is there any group of people in the world that rallies under the cry  "For El and Country!"?  Judeo/Christian ideology has withstood the test of time, not only for its principles, but for its longevity.

If we believe the bible then the Midianites were slaughtered on the orders of God, not supplanted by the superior ideology of Israel. Ha, yes, you mean wonderful 'principles' like Numbers 31?:

Quote

17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18 But all the women children, that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

That's not Catholic corruption, God ordered their slaughter.  But yes, where would be now without such examples of 'preservatives of society' and Judeo 'ethics'...

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52 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

If we believe the bible then the Midianites were slaughtered on the orders of God, not supplanted by the superior ideology of Israel. Ha, yes, you mean wonderful 'principles' like Numbers 31?:

That's not Catholic corruption, God ordered their slaughter.  But yes, where would be now without such examples of 'preservatives of society' and Judeo 'ethics'...

Would we be in a better place today if Judeo/Christian ethics were completely ignored throughout history? I'll leave that for ancient history scholars to decide.

However I can say with certainty that the teachings of Jesus recorded in the four gospels have had a positive affect on our world. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, danielost said:

either way is correct.  you can't prove spirit unless god wants you too with or without tools.

 

Then God must not want anyone to prove anything about God or spirit . 

Must be one of those 'faith tests' eh ?   Instead of a demo where we all go " Ohhhhh ... look at that Gid and spirit is real ! " and we all tow the line and everything is wonderful and peaceful   God doesnt prove anything and demands belief  via faith against any proof ! 

Now, if that were a person, I'd say they were covering up something ..... they got no goods or power, they BS !  

But of course your God doesnt work like  that  -    Shim works in 'mysterious ways '      :rolleyes:

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