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Human Nature


DebDandelion

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We are more often treacherous through weakness than through calculation. ~François VI de la Rochefoucault

I find this quote above interesting and I am interested in opinions about it. 

I for one believe that we are treacherous by calculation and choice, for being  treacherous doesn't come naturally. (to most)

Edited by DebDandelion
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I believe that treachery in the first instance is also driven by choice. The difference between the two scenarios is that the first is less malicious and premeditated than the last.

Edited by Claire.
Auto-spellcheck was being difficult.
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I think I would agree with the first statement. If you look at treachery as being, the quality of being deceptive. Then deception itself is more often created by people who are hiding either a flaw or shameful secret.

Treachery in the case of political deception, can be seen as calculating, but is less frequently occurring than your average daily human deception.

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siblings.....even identical twin can make the same choice......either treacherous.....like treason......is a calculate choice.....history has proven strenght in numbers.....that would show that weaker people make choices they may not normally choose......

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2 hours ago, Claire. said:

I believe that treachery in the first instance is also driven by choice. The difference between the two scenarios is that the first is less malicious and premeditated than the last.

Quoting myself because the more I think of it the more I believe that both scenarios could be fueled by maliciousness and premeditation. It's all a matter of how 'weakness' is defined, and perhaps also how much 'choice' factored into it.

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3 hours ago, DebDandelion said:


We are more often treacherous through weakness than through calculation. ~François VI de la Rochefoucault

I find this quote above interesting and I am interested in opinions about it. 

I for one believe that we are treacherous by calculation and choice, for being  treacherous doesn't come naturally. (to most)

Depending upon the situation one may be treacherous in order to save many lives if the powers that be are of tyranny. It can also be about pure survival. Being the only option. Either through intentional or unintentional actions.

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21 minutes ago, Claire. said:

Quoting myself because the more I think of it the more I believe that both scenarios could be fueled by maliciousness and premeditation. It's all a matter of how 'weakness' is defined, and perhaps also how much 'choice' factored into it.

I like the point you make about what is viewed as weakness, and I'm facinated by the view that treachery is pre-meditated and intentionally malicious.

It's true that the term treachery has negative appeal, but I feel that most treachery or lies are done to cover up a weakness or wrong doing. Not all weakness and wrong doing is intentional or premeditated. That's where  shame comes from. And shame is the best fertiliser for lies, deceit , and treachery.

E.g.. a small child damages the living room rug. They are then left two choices fess up or make something up. ( it was like that when I got here) practicing deceit.

Edited by Kismit
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17 minutes ago, Kismit said:

I like the point you make about what is viewed as weakness, and I'm facinated by the view that treachery is pre-meditated and intentionally malicious.

It's true that the term treachery has negative appeal, but I feel that most treachery or lies are done to cover up a weakness or wrong doing. Not all weakness and wrong doing is intentional or premeditated. That's where  shame comes from. And shame is the best fertiliser for lies, deceit , and treachery.

E.g.. a small child damages the living room rug. They are then left two choices fess up or make something up. ( it was like that when I got here) practicing deceit.

Your earlier post (specifically your points about why deceptions occur) had me rethink the motivation behind each scenario. I agree that most lies are done to cover up a weakness or wrongdoing, which is why I realized that premeditation most likely occurred in both scenarios. Deliberate, however, might have been a better choice of words.

Both scenarios require a conscious, and therefore, deliberate decision.

I also agree that shame is a good fertilizer, but so is fear I think  — fear of consequences, for instance. Using deceit enables someone to manipulate the consequences so that they are more favorable, rather than negative or punitive in any way. In addition to consequences, deceit can also be used to achieve a desired outcome. For example, you meet a person you like but are afraid they won't like you because you're an artist, so you lie and tell them you're a dentist.

As for maliciousness, it's a strong word admittedly, but primarily because intent is involved. Intent to cause harm is not a requirement, as shown by your example. Intent can very easily be to protect one's self, and the harm (if any) a by-product of that.

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3 minutes ago, Kismit said:

Excellent Clair. I quite enjoyed reading that. Very thought provoking. 

Thank you, and likewise with your posts.

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I Love reading your replies! Question then, the weakness referred to in the quote would be weakness to 'man up' about a situation? Thus leading to u (general reference) being treacherous to avoid consequences? 

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1 hour ago, Eldorado said:

There's always a choice.

Please ignore that.  My mind took me off on another tangent and then when I was just about to edit my post, my laptop froze.  All I had on was UM and Hank Locklin so I'm blaming my Firefox plugins.  Grr.

Sorry, folks.

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2 hours ago, Eldorado said:

There's always a choice.

Well, I thought it was a choice if.one chooses an action based on your.perception of the situation...

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7 hours ago, Claire. said:

I believe that treachery in the first instance is also driven by choice. The difference between the two scenarios is that the first is less malicious and premeditated than the last.

I like this. It makes sense in my head:rolleyes:

Edited by DebDandelion
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5 hours ago, cluey said:

siblings.....even identical twin can make the same choice......either treacherous.....like treason......is a calculate choice.....history has proven strenght in numbers.....that would show that weaker people make choices they may not normally choose......

In other words they are Influenced by the majority? So would their actions then be seen as treacherous? (those who follow the masses?)

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5 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Depending upon the situation one may be treacherous in order to save many lives if the powers that be are of tyranny. It can also be about pure survival. Being the only option. Either through intentional or unintentional actions.

This also makes sense, so your actions are determined by your perception of the situation... 

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4 hours ago, Kismit said:

I like the point you make about what is viewed as weakness, and I'm facinated by the view that treachery is pre-meditated and intentionally malicious.

It's true that the term treachery has negative appeal, but I feel that most treachery or lies are done to cover up a weakness or wrong doing. Not all weakness and wrong doing is intentional or premeditated. That's where  shame comes from. And shame is the best fertiliser for lies, deceit , and treachery.

E.g.. a small child damages the living room rug. They are then left two choices fess up or make something up. ( it was like that when I got here) practicing deceit.

Makes sense. Stands to reason that there is a line of development for treachery if one has a good working moral compass. (it's not your first avenue, it developed due to other circumstances) treachery will be your last avenue... 

But we do find (as previously stated) people where treachery is their first avenue of choice

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I do think all humans are capable of treacherous behaviour..... not always the masses.......peer pressure......a persons ability to make up there own mind...and not feel pressured to follow.......see...thats where empathy and a minds ability come into play....

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On 1/22/2017 at 2:23 PM, DebDandelion said:


We are more often treacherous through weakness than through calculation. ~François VI de la Rochefoucault

I find this quote above interesting and I am interested in opinions about it. 

I for one believe that we are treacherous by calculation and choice, for being  treacherous doesn't come naturally. (to most)

Treachery through weakness seems to be the case of some event that occurs that then potentially causes treachery.  I.e some event occurs that then raises the possibility of being treacherous.

Treachery through calculation is something different.  It's the act of creating some sort of a scam.

To me this says that we are more often treacherous due to our circumstances as opposed to actively going out and trying to scam people.  To me this seems about right since most people aren't scammers.

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