Zero Point Classified Anti Gravity Craft

[lost_shaman]

What do the Time Crystals have to do with any of this? I think two different things are being interchanged as one.

(1) Time crystals are matter, that moves at absolute Zero.

(2) Zero Point Energy that people talk of hypothetically harnessing power from, is more accurately called the Zero Point Energy Field which is strictly electromagnetic in nature for these discussions.  

So Time crystals are cool. But I don't really see how they are relevant to the ZPE Field or the a-v (Fluxliners).

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

On 3/2/2017 at 0:54 AM, ChrLzs said:

Oh, and by the way, there are actually TWO reasons why a lot of people may dispute you in a similar way:

1. It's a huge plot and they are all in a gang.

2. You are wrong and they are rightly correcting you.

I think I've spotted which one applies here.

Its number 1 isn't it ? 

[DONTEATUS]

Brins a Name from the past to mind ? "Bob lazar" Didnt He Invent Alien Space Craft?

[stereologist]

On 2/2/2017 at 5:03 PM, aka CAT said:

stereologist,

 

I am done discussing the a-v, though I do not mind returning to the point I conceded you.  Whereupon I suggested energy need be expended to cool helium to absolute zero, you countered with the fact “that to lower our atmospheric temperature requires REMOVAL of energy.”  While we probably both know the least usable energy is thermal energy at the temperature of the environment, harnessing the heat lost while cooling something is another matter, isn’t it?

 

Some waste is unavoidable in life.  However, one needn’t waste his talents while he still possesses them.  You have a fine mind, though I suspect some hypercritical person led you to become too perfectionistic to enjoy the fact for fear of your making mistakes.  That’s the catch 22, because making mistakes is part of learning.

 

Peace be with you.

 

Here is what you wrote.

Quote

"[t]he lowest natural temperature ever directly recorded at ground level on Earth [according to Wikipedia] is −89.2 °C (−128.6 °F; 184.0 K), an input of energy would be required to lower our atmospheric temperature to that of a colder place.

What you are saying now is that energy needs to be expended to cool liquid helium, but you were not talking about liquid helium in your post. Maybe you were confused when you wrote #26. I was responding to your input of energy. To cool material energy must be removed. Your comment about "least usable energy" is not important. In fact, that comment makes no sense. Temperature is a measure of the mean kinetic energy of the particles in a system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperature

Quote

The kinetic theory offers a valuable but limited account of the behavior of the materials of macroscopic bodies, especially of fluids. It indicates the absolute temperature as proportional to the average kinetic energy of the random microscopic motions of those of their constituent microscopic particles

Removing energy from a system results in cooling. You suggested an "an input of energy" is needed to cool. That is wrong.

Once again you are trying to change what you posted. You now suggest you meant "energy need be expended" to cool. Is that the case? The Earth cools through radiative heating.

You tried to fix one of your glaring mistakes when it came to power and energy. That ended up in more bumbling mistakes.

[stereologist]

On 2/3/2017 at 8:16 PM, lost_shaman said:

What do the Time Crystals have to do with any of this? I think two different things are being interchanged as one.

(1) Time crystals are matter, that moves at absolute Zero.

(2) Zero Point Energy that people talk of hypothetically harnessing power from, is more accurately called the Zero Point Energy Field which is strictly electromagnetic in nature for these discussions.  

So Time crystals are cool. But I don't really see how they are relevant to the ZPE Field or the a-v (Fluxliners).

I think aka CAT thought that because there was motion at absolute zero it meant there was a way to harness that motion as a means of creating a perpetual power source.

 

[aka CAT]

On 2/3/2017 at 7:16 PM, lost_shaman said:

What do the Time Crystals have to do with any of this? I think two different things are being interchanged as one.

(1) Time crystals are matter, that moves at absolute Zero.

(2) Zero Point Energy that people talk of hypothetically harnessing power from, is more accurately called the Zero Point Energy Field which is strictly electromagnetic in nature for these discussions.  

So Time crystals are cool. But I don't really see how they are relevant to the ZPE Field or the a-v (Fluxliners).

You asked, “What do time crystals have to do with any of this?”
Helpful to your understanding are a few terms.  Preliminarily, realize that vacuum energy is defined in terms of zero point energy (ZPE) and consider ZPE nearly synonymous with ground state while reading a recap of what I wrote and quoted:

I set out to analyze the topic, mainly because I was and still am interested in a subtopic, in zero-point energy (ZPE).  That vacuum energy is the ZPE of all the fields in space applies to the topic.  Even though much of what is written in regard to ZPE in science fiction can be dismissed as pseudoscience, it doesn't negate the usefulness of materials in a ground state, e.g. a recent breakthrough made with time crystals that were in a ground state:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"First predicted by Nobel-Prize winning theoretical physicist Frank Wilczek back in 2012, time crystals are structures that appear to have movement even at their lowest energy state, known as a ground state.

Usually when a material is in ground state, also known as the zero-point energy of a system, it means movement should theoretically be impossible, because that would require it to expend energy.

But Wilczek predicted that this might not actually be the case for time crystals"

http://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-have-just-announced-a-brand-new-form-of-matter-time-crystals

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Previously, on January 28, 2017, I wrote Thorvir:
There are two things about time crystals that you might appreciate either directly or indirectly.  
They might improve time keeping, e.g. in satellite technology,
and they will certainly change quantum computing in ways, well, staggering, e.g.
_________________________________________________________________
[...] of important consequences. First up is the possibility that [the formation of time crystals] provides a mechanism for measuring time, since the periodic behaviour is like a pendulum. “The spontaneous formation of a time crystal represents the spontaneous emergence of a clock,” says Wilczek.

Another is the possibility that it may be possible to exploit time crystals to perform computations using zero energy.*As Wilczek puts it, “it is interesting to speculate that a…quantum mechanical system whose states could be interpreted as a collection of qubits, could be engineered to traverse a programmed landscape of structured states in Hilbert space over time.”

Altogether this is a simple argument. But simplicity is often  deceptively powerful. Of course, there will be disputes over some of the issues this raises. One of them is that the motion that breaks time symmetry seems a little puzzling. Wilczek and Shapere acknowledge this: “Speaking broadly speaking, what we’re looking for looks perilously close to perpetual motion.”

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/426917/physicists-predict-the-existence-of-time-crystals/

*Moreover, I have read that time crystals might potentially augment the memory capacity of quantum computers.

_________________________________________________________________

Did that answer your question?  Also, I hope the possible uses, to which I added bold, of time crystals suggest to you ways in which they might help to further the advancement of space technology.

Thank you, CAT

Edited February 6, 2017 by aka CAT

[lost_shaman]

3 hours ago, aka CAT said:

ou asked, “What do time crystals have to do with any of this?”
Helpful to your understanding are a few terms.  Preliminarily, realize that vacuum energy is defined in terms of zero point energy (ZPE) and consider ZPE nearly synonymous with ground state while reading a recap of what I wrote and quoted:

This is what I am pointing out here. You are calling Apples, Oranges and vise versa. 

The "ground state" of a mechanical system or electron or any other Matter is not synonymous with the ZPE field in a vacuum.

3 hours ago, aka CAT said:

I set out to analyze the topic, mainly because I was and still am interested in a subtopic, in zero-point energy (ZPE).  That vacuum energy is the ZPE of all the fields in space applies to the topic.

Yes it does, and you are right had you stopped there.

 

3 hours ago, aka CAT said:

Even though much of what is written in regard to ZPE in science fiction can be dismissed as pseudoscience, it doesn't negate the usefulness of materials in a ground state, e.g. a recent breakthrough made with time crystals that were in a ground state:

What? See you've gone off the rails here... Yes, Time Crystals are cool and recently in the news but this and "ground states" have nothing to do with the electromagnetic ZPE field.

 

Note how this is not in anyway like "absolute zero" temperature or the "ground state" of a material system.

(See below, UM editor will not allow my to post this sentence below the quote!)

Quote

http://www.calphysics.org/zpe.html

Zero-point energy is the energy that remains when all other energy is removed from a system. This behaviour is demonstrated by, for example, liquid helium. As the temperature is lowered to absolute zero, helium remains a liquid, rather than freezing to a solid, owing to the irremovable zero-point energy of its atomic motions. (Increasing the pressure to 25 atmospheres will cause helium to freeze.)

A harmonic oscillator is a useful conceptual tool in physics. Classically a harmonic oscillator, such as a mass on a spring, can always be brought to rest. However a quantum harmonic oscillator does not permit this. A residual motion will always remain due to the requirements of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, resulting in a zero-point energy, equal to 1/2 hf, where f is the oscillation frequency.

Electromagnetic radiation can be pictured as waves flowing through space at the speed of light. The waves are not waves of anything substantive, but are ripples in a state of a theoretically defined field. However these waves do carry energy (and momentum), and each wave has a specific direction, frequency and polarization state. Each wave represents a ''propagating mode of the electromagnetic field.''

Each mode is equivalent to a harmonic oscillator and is thus subject to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. From this analogy, every mode of the field must have 1/2 hf as its average minimum energy. That is a tiny amount of energy in each mode, but the number of modes is enormous, and indeed increases per unit frequency interval as the square of the frequency. The spectral energy density is determined by the density of modes times the energy per mode and thus increases as the cube of the frequency per unit frequency per unit volume. The product of the tiny energy per mode times the huge spatial density of modes yields a very high theoretical zero-point energy density per cubic centimeter.

From this line of reasoning, quantum physics predicts that all of space must be filled with electromagnetic zero-point fluctuations (also called the zero-point field) creating a universal sea of zero-point energy. The density of this energy depends critically on where in frequency the zero-point fluctuations cease. Since space itself is thought to break up into a kind of quantum foam at a tiny distance scale called the Planck scale (10^-33 cm), it is argued that the zero point fluctuations must cease at a corresponding Planck frequency (10⁴³ Hz). If that is the case, the zero-point energy density would be 110 orders of magnitude greater than the radiant energy at the center of the Sun.

How could such an enormous energy not be wildly evident? There is one major difference between zero-point electromagnetic radiation and ordinary electromagnetic radiation. Turning again to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle one finds that the lifetime of a given zero-point photon, viewed as a wave, corresponds to an average distance traveled of only a fraction of its wavelength. Such a wave ''fragment'' is somewhat different than an ordinary plane wave and it is difficult to know how to interpret this.

 

Edited February 7, 2017 by lost_shaman
formatting.

[aka CAT]

6 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

The "ground state" of a mechanical system or electron or any other Matter is not synonymous with the ZPE field in a vacuum.

Let's take one thing at a time.  A definition of ZPE,  "Zero-point energy (ZPE) or ground state energy is the lowest possible energy that a quantum mechanical system may have, i.e. it is the energy of the system's ground state"--Wikipedia.  From the above definition, one would conclude ZPE synonymous with ground state energy.  Granted the last word should not be omitted from ground state energy, I only once mentioned ZPE in conjunction with fields.  You agreed with that statement.

The fact is that you introduced the subject of a "ZPE field."  That isn't to say that the information that you quoted doesn't apply to the a-v, it is only to say that the preamble to 

Quote

From this line of reasoning, quantum physics predicts that all of space must be filled with electromagnetic zero-point fluctuations (also called the zero-point field) creating a universal sea of zero-point energy. 

was beyond what had previously been discussed in this thread.  Hence, I never claimed that time crystals have anything to do with an "electromagnetic ZPE field."  Instead, my mention of time crystals was exactly for the purposes stated and mainly as an example of "a material [...] in a ground state, also known as the zero-point energy of a system."

So, as I work to be more precise and to take greater care to avoid ellipses, e.g. by my getting plenty of rest, you might move beyond what has already been said and elaborate on your contribution to the discussion in terms of "fluctuations" and "enormous energy."  To what extent and for what purposes do you think the latter can be harnessed?

lost_shaman et al,

There are other questions that might be addressed, e.g.

- Would it surprise you to learn that the Nazis were experimenting with hover craft during WWII?  If so, their experimentation gave them no strategic advantage in the outcome of the war. 

- Do you think the steering mechanism of the FluxLiner, with its use of a laser, too sophisticated for WWII technology?  Yes or no, I’ll bet someone has tested such a design by now.

- Could a mercury vortex engine aka mercury turbine engine function in the FluxLiner as described in the a-v?  That is a more complex question where one might start with a simpler engine, e.g.

with a patent for a vortex engine, which “[...] claims that the main application [has to do with] generating twenty percent additional electric power from the heat normally wasted by conventional power plants”--

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_engine

Of limited use are the two answers provided in the following:

 

How does a mercury vortex engine work? - Quora

 

https://www.quora.com/How-does-a-mercury-vortex-engin...Proxy  Highlight

Hi! It depends on which description you are talking about, so far there are two kinds[...]

 

Such engines are discussed on various websites, there are a number of related videos (some document  experiments) and there are, of course, the persons named as sources in the a-v. 

- Has anyone looked into magnetohydrodynamic propulsion?

 

 

 

 

Edited February 7, 2017 by aka CAT

[+Hammerclaw]

Can you, yourself, relate to us any of the mathematics of how this engine works? Can you show us at least one peer reviewed paper on the topic confirming, at least,  it's theoretical viability?

[lost_shaman]

39 minutes ago, aka CAT said:

Let's take one thing at a time.  A definition of ZPE,  "Zero-point energy (ZPE) or ground state energy is the lowest possible energy that a quantum mechanical system may have, i.e. it is the energy of the system's ground state"--Wikipedia.  From the above definition, one would conclude ZPE synonymous with ground state energy.  Granted the last word should not be omitted from ground state energy, I only once mentioned ZPE in conjunction with fields.  You agreed with that statement.

The simple fact is that you introduced the subject of a "ZPE field," which involves much that had not mentioned.  That isn't to say that the information that you quoted doesn't apply to the a-v, it is only to say that the preamble to 

Quote

From this line of reasoning, quantum physics predicts that all of space must be filled with electromagnetic zero-point fluctuations (also called the zero-point field) creating a universal sea of zero-point energy. 

was beyond what had been discussed in this thread.  Hence, I never claimed that time crystals have anything to do with an "electromagnetic ZPE field."  Instead, my mention of time crystals was precisely for the purposes stated and mainly as an example of "a material [...] in a ground state, also known as the zero-point energy of a system."

So, as I work to be more precise and will take greater care to avoid ellipses, e.g. my getting plenty of rest, you might move beyond what has already been said and elaborate on your contribution to the discussion in terms of "fluctuations" and "enormous energy."  To what extent and for what purposes do you think the latter can be harnessed?

Ok. Fine. Obviously, just like "fruit" confuses people in a metaphorical discussion of Apples and Oranges. 

Zero Point Energy of a vacuum clearly is present, but how you might harness it in any meaningful way is clearly not evident or obvious.

I was thinking about this the other day and it would be like thinking you could harness the air pressure at sea level.  There is clearly potential energy in air under pressure at sea level right? Of course there is, but how do you harness it? Well, you do that by creating a variance in pressure. The problem is that moving the air expends more energy than the variance in pressure could ever provide after you capture it and move it.

 

 

Edited February 7, 2017 by lost_shaman

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

3 hours ago, aka CAT said:

- Would it surprise you to learn that the Nazis were experimenting with hover craft during WWII?  If so, their experimentation gave them no strategic advantage in the outcome of the war. 

How are hovercrafts in any way relevant to this discussion ? They work by using air as the working medium and have absolutely nothing to do with zero point energy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hovercraft

Maybe you mean something different when you write hovercraft ?

3 hours ago, aka CAT said:

- Do you think the steering mechanism of the FluxLiner, with its use of a laser, too sophisticated for WWII technology? 

Since the laser wasn't invented until well after WWII I certainly would say that it was too sophisticated for WWII technology. So sophisticated that it didn't exist yet (Just like the FluxLiner)

3 hours ago, aka CAT said:

Yes or no, I’ll bet someone has tested such a design by now.

I think you are going to lose that bet.

3 hours ago, aka CAT said:

with a patent for a vortex engine, which “[...] claims that the main application [has to do with] generating twenty percent additional electric power from the heat normally wasted by conventional power plants”--

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_engine

 

Just because something exist as a patent doesn't mean it actually works.

The link you provided have nothing to do with propulsion. 

3 hours ago, aka CAT said:

How does a mercury vortex engine work? - Quora

As far as I know the mercury vortex engine first made its appearance in the fictional chanelled stories about ancient Indian flying machines. Since then it have become a staple of the UFO crowd.

3 hours ago, aka CAT said:

Such engines are discussed on various websites, there are a number of related videos (some document  experiments) and there are, of course, the persons named as sources in the a-v. 

I really hope people aren't experimenting with mercury in those vidoes. Mercury is very toxic.

Quote

- Has anyone looked into magnetohydrodynamic propulsion ?

Yes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamic_drive

In fact the Japanese made a ship propelled by magnetohydrodynamic propulsion. It could go at a blistering 8 knots. A pretty far cry from being an interstellar space craft. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamato_1

Again what have MHD propulsion got to do with zero point energy ?

 

Edited February 7, 2017 by Noteverythingisaconspiracy

[aka CAT]

10 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Can you, yourself, relate to us any of the mathematics of how this engine works? Can you show us at least one peer reviewed paper on the topic confirming, at least,  it's theoretical viability?

There was source given and briefly shown in the a-v, but, while there are probably similar other documents, most of us wouldn't understand them.

[aka CAT]

lost_shaman, as duplicate replies appeared and disappeared while I was editing, see reply below.

Edited February 7, 2017 by aka CAT

[aka CAT]

7 hours ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

Maybe you mean something different when you write hovercraft ?

Yes, flying saucers to be more specific.

7 hours ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

Since the laser wasn't invented until well after WWII I certainly would say that it was too sophisticated for WWII technology. So sophisticated that it didn't exist yet (Just like the FluxLiner)

That would have been my guess.

7 hours ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

I think you are going to lose that bet [i.e. in regard to lasers being tested in steering mechanisms similar to that described in a-v by now]

I have read about and seen some pretty spectacular things done with lasers.  One example of their use in this discussion was in the making of time crystals.

7 hours ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

Just because something exist as a patent doesn't mean it actually works.

Persons critical of the vortex engine said it wouldn't pass wind tests, but it did.  From what I gathered, I believe it effectively operational.

7 hours ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

As far as I know the mercury vortex engine first made its appearance in the fictional chanelled stories about ancient Indian flying machines. Since then it have become a staple of the UFO crowd.

Inclined to agree with you, I think a study of propulsion techniques* more in order.

7 hours ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

I really hope people aren't experimenting with mercury in those vidoes. Mercury is very toxic.

Some people of questionable judgment are in fact conducting unsafe experiments; nevertheless, mercury as a superconductor is interesting.

7 hours ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

In fact the Japanese made a ship propelled by magnetohydrodynamic propulsion. It could go at a blistering 8 knots

LOL. 

Thank you.  Your input was greatly appreciated and, at times, amusing.

*I like Tim Benedict's approach to 

Antigravity and Propulsion Techniques 101

http://www.antigravity101.com/

[stereologist]

53 minutes ago, aka CAT said:

There was source given and briefly shown in the a-v, but, while there are probably similar other documents, most of us wouldn't understand them.

Where was this shown in the video. As I stated before I did examine the parts of the video you pointed out.

[aka CAT]

10 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

Ok. Fine. Obviously, just like "fruit" confuses people in a metaphorical discussion of Apples and Oranges. 

Zero Point Energy of a vacuum clearly is present, but how you might harness it in any meaningful way is clearly not evident or obvious.

I was thinking about this the other day and it would be like thinking you could harness the air pressure at sea level.  There is clearly potential energy in air under pressure at sea level right? Of course there is, but how do you harness it? Well, you do that by creating a variance in pressure. The problem is that moving the air expends more energy than the variance in pressure could ever provide after you capture it and move it.

 

 

Not an ufologist by any means, I thank you for and welcome all objective analyses on the subject.

[stereologist]

Quote

Some people of questionable judgment are in fact conducting unsafe experiments; nevertheless, mercury as a superconductor is interesting.

Mercury would not be that useful as a superconductor since it is a type I superconductor.

[aka CAT]

5 hours ago, stereologist said:

Where was this shown in the video. As I stated before I did examine the parts of the video you pointed out.

There is show of and mention of H.E Puthoff's supposedly published and peer-reviewed math @ ~1:00:27, though it isn't readily found online.  Also, in Nick Cook's much criticized 

The Hunt for Zero Point

Inside the Classified World of

Antigravity Technology

there is mention of mathematician's whom he claims to have consulted.

 

[stereologist]

The original question from Hammerclaw was

Quote

Can you, yourself, relate to us any of the mathematics of how this engine works? Can you show us at least one peer reviewed paper on the topic confirming, at least,  it's theoretical viability?

Puthoff has written papers that address that question. These are not necessarily mathematical in nature. Here is something he wrote that is a review paper. The review does not appear to cover anything having to do with the video in the OP. Puthoff is in the video only to support a few basic ideas about ZPE, nothing more. Notice the date on the link. It is 20 years ago. There appears to have been no gain since that time.

http://www.keelynet.com/gravity/putnasa.htm

[+Hammerclaw]

9 hours ago, aka CAT said:

There was source given and briefly shown in the a-v, but, while there are probably similar other documents, most of us wouldn't understand them.

S-o-o, we don't know what we're talking about?  Well, we might as well be 8th graders discussing Warp Drive at the lunch table, then.

[aka CAT]

11 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

S-o-o, we don't know what we're talking about?  Well, we might as well be 8th graders discussing Warp Drive at the lunch table, then.

Do you have a doctorate in math?  My use for it is mainly architectural.  

[stereologist]

39 minutes ago, aka CAT said:

Do you have a doctorate in math?  My use for it is mainly architectural.  

Why are you requiring a doctorate in mathematics?

[+Hammerclaw]

1 hour ago, aka CAT said:

Do you have a doctorate in math?  My use for it is mainly architectural.  

No, but I can use a slide rule, a vanishing art. You are well liked here, s-o-o, you've been given more leeway with woo than most others would have been. Although, I'm inclined to be charitable and call it idle speculation.

[aka CAT]

1 hour ago, stereologist said:

Why are you requiring a doctorate in mathematics?

That was an overstatement, granted that, on most discussion boards, the subject of math tends to thin out the participants.  

I plan to read whatever I can find on the subject in regard to Tesla.

26 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

No, but I can use a slide rule, a vanishing art. You are well liked here, s-o-o, you've been given more leeway with woo than most others would have been. Although, I'm inclined to be charitable and call it idle speculation.

Speaking of Tesla, he hadn't even a slide rule.  He'd have loved a scientific calculator.  The barely perceptible clicking of mine is almost musical to me when I'm crunching numbers.  

If I am well liked here, one would never guess it from this thread.

Edited February 8, 2017 by aka CAT

[badeskov]

On 2/7/2017 at 10:20 AM, aka CAT said:

There was source given and briefly shown in the a-v, but, while there are probably similar other documents, most of us wouldn't understand them.

Some of us actually has some knowledge of advanced math and physics. This is still a fantasy, what you are trying to do is to cram water out of an empty glass, by all means of respect. Again, ZPE is a definition, simply the lowest state of energy a system can be in - you can't pry anymore out of it.

Cheers,
Badeskov