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A good sight, see the one on the NDE


markdohle

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It's funny how what you call something influences how your audience perceives the importance of what you say.

NDE: Near death + experience

The first ingredient isn't what distinguishes these cases from the rest of human living. Not one of us is ever farther than a single heartbeat from death. No, what distinguishes these cases is that they are post-traumatic. The subject has managed to survive a grave crisis, an illness or an injury. That's what unusual and distinctive about the reports. Being candid about that reminds the listener that perception, judgment and memory are not at their best on such occasions.

The second ingredient is experience. Doesn't that word mean something that really happened, reported accurately? These are not real-time reports or records. These are recollections afterwards, when the neuro-muscular system of the subject has recovered sufficiently to communicate again. And what is recalled is the accommodation of that neuro-muscular system to the grave illness or injury it needed to recover from in the first place.

Post-traumatic recollections. That's what they are.

Useful conversation begins, I think, when things are called by neutral, candidly descriptive names. You know, calling a spade a spade. Just sayin'.

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4 hours ago, eight bits said:

It's funny how what you call something influences how your audience perceives the importance of what you say.

NDE: Near death + experience

The first ingredient isn't what distinguishes these cases from the rest of human living. Not one of us is ever farther than a single heartbeat from death. No, what distinguishes these cases is that they are post-traumatic. The subject has managed to survive a grave crisis, an illness or an injury. That's what unusual and distinctive about the reports. Being candid about that reminds the listener that perception, judgment and memory are not at their best on such occasions.

The second ingredient is experience. Doesn't that word mean something that really happened, reported accurately? These are not real-time reports or records. These are recollections afterwards, when the neuro-muscular system of the subject has recovered sufficiently to communicate again. And what is recalled is the accommodation of that neuro-muscular system to the grave illness or injury it needed to recover from in the first place.

Post-traumatic recollections. That's what they are.

Useful conversation begins, I think, when things are called by neutral, candidly descriptive names. You know, calling a spade a spade. Just sayin'.

 

Just an aside (add to): I am in my second journey being a part of one's death process and I am in phone contact with a friend that is currently on Hospice with terminal cancer. IMHO these videos are a way to help a person "relax" into the death process. sort of prepare for the experience of death, eventually. For example; Helen was terrified of dying she did not embrace her "near death experience" at all, there was no way to comfort her and it was not transformative to her. It was her show and that is how she chose to experience her end-- kicking and screaming the whole way.( I say this (non-judgementally). The interesting part (for me) was it was profoundly transformative to me in the sense that I looked at her lifeline and I looked at mine and have set to work to clean house personally. My objective isn't to tell myself stories to deny and avoid the death I will eventually experience, but to use my time in a way that is of value to me and those around me. For me, Helen showed me the things not to do. I have no objections to the story one tells themselves to cope with the idea of death, yet, I do suggest as food for thought that these types of videos can encourage denial and bandage fears and IMHO this is a tough way to go which for those that are prone to fear as a coping strategy or perspective can be debilitating, isolating, to the point one cannot escape their own prison of terror. I think it is a good idea to personally explore the idea of death early in one's life prepare for it. "No one gets out of here alive" death is a given.The Lady I am working with now, on the other hand, is ready to go and talks about her mental and emotional journey openly and candidly, I would describe her as relaxing into the death process, she credits her father with setting an example of how to die ( she is in the end stages of COPD). It is a beautiful experience for her and me, it is inspiring to me in the sense that it is a natural process that is fearless. My lady is comfy with the idea that we just don't know what is on the other side and it doesn't matter. Her thoughts are she is amazed at the things she was able to accomplish in her life and her end is about quality time with her adult children which is going as she anticipated, full of love and joy. My friend on Hospice has created a death experience of fun and celebration. She is taking the opportunity to go out in peace and joy and delights in the feedback of herself as a person according to those who are her friends. She is a joy to talk to.It looks as if I will be working as a person who helps transition people into Palliative and Hospice care I am the person who explains the physical process of dying as asked and fulfill the person's needs wherever they are in their journey. My take away is afterlife's and heavens are immaterial, and ones "hope" typically is to not linger on and suffer needlessly, physically or emotionally.        

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1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

Sometime when you give up on life, you can live again. (It's a metaphor)

I think this is a good point, we have varying degrees of wanting to be in control and we have no control over death. Of course, we need to take control a lot of times, but what we forget is there are times we have to get out of the way and let go too. In my experience, (from my last adventure and it was a nightmare), in retrospect, I had very little control and when I was able to see this life just opened doors, not always pleasant doors, but this is the nature of reality. We as people insulate ourselves to cope with the harsh reality of life to varying degrees. IMHO          

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5 hours ago, Sherapy said:

I think this is a good point, we have varying degrees of wanting to be in control and we have no control over death. Of course, we need to take control a lot of times, but what we forget is there are times we have to get out of the way and let go too. In my experience, (from my last adventure and it was a nightmare), in retrospect, I had very little control and when I was able to see this life just opened doors, not always pleasant doors, but this is the nature of reality. We as people insulate ourselves to cope with the harsh reality of life to varying degrees. IMHO          

The idea of non-attachment frightens people because they think they're going to lose everything, but you're going to lose it all anyway. Not to be attached to things is to be able to cut ties with them without emotional distress. It is not lack of love but acceptance that all is temporary. The greatest control is of one's self. Because life is a lot like throwing a baseball into a field of grass. Sure you've got a general idea of where it went but you have no clue about all the subtle things that influences it's direction. That's life right there. You do one thing and what the end results are, well that's a matter of time. 

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3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

The idea of non-attachment frightens people because they think they're going to lose everything, but you're going to lose it all anyway. Not to be attached to things is to be able to cut ties with them without emotional distress. It is not lack of love but acceptance that all is temporary. The greatest control is of one's self. Because life is a lot like throwing a baseball into a field of grass. Sure you've got a general idea of where it went but you have no clue about all the subtle things that influences it's direction. That's life right there. You do one thing and what the end results are, well that's a matter of time. 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

I think fantasy, fairy stories and using religious ideology, as a means to escape an inevitable end, "death" is what nurtures fear. For me, the NDE movement is simply just another way to avoid the reality of death.The lady I took care of was so afraid to die and out of time to prepare, to cope with reality. She honestly thought she could beat death, she became the monster in her own fantasy.She was a person who was terror-stricken and shell-shocked over the idea that her days were numbered, she had lived in a fantasy so long she believed in it. And, she had 8 and a half months to prepare and all the help she needed to do so and she savagely fought her made up demons, in the end, death was her salvation, merciful, and peaceful. the fear she lived in did not serve her when death came out of the closet to greet her. I think we do ourselves and our culture a great disservice by encouraging make- belief instead of just facing reality, experiencing life from the front lines, my take away is to use my life, myself, to live my life for all it is the good, the bad, and the ugly to not live in make- believe. In spite of the feet to the fire experience that I lived through, I am grateful for the opportunity to grow in a direction that will serve me. The way to self-awareness is to face fear (reality) or as you pointed out not attaching to things that aren't there anyway. IMHO             

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It's a lot like the difference between my mother and father. My dad is ready for death. Not in a suicidal mindset but basically tired. He's got a beat up body due to a life of hard labor and arthritis. He told me that he wasn't worried about dying, "Not like I can avoid it". So he keeps going each day and I'm of the same mindset as he is. Since I've faced death down twice I see it as just "The Great Sleep".

My mother fights it tooth and nail. She's terrified of it. And kind of a hypochondriac. My wife has accepted death when she was diagnosed with ovarian cancer, but she's too damn stubborn to give up.:lol: "I'm going to die one day and today isn't that day."

I think there is a difference in accepting death and loving life, vs fearing death and being depressed all the time. I say screw it and make the most of it. The reaper's going to get you one day, so live it up. 

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8 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

It's a lot like the difference between my mother and father. My dad is ready for death. Not in a suicidal mindset but basically tired. He's got a beat up body due to a life of hard labor and arthritis. He told me that he wasn't worried about dying, "Not like I can avoid it". So he keeps going each day and I'm of the same mindset as he is. Since I've faced death down twice I see it as just "The Great Sleep".

My mother fights it tooth and nail. She's terrified of it. And kind of a hypochondriac. My wife has accepted death when she was diagnosed with ovarian cancer, but she's too damn stubborn to give up.:lol: "I'm going to die one day and today isn't that day."

I think there is a difference in accepting death and loving life, vs fearing death and being depressed all the time. I say screw it and make the most of it. The reaper's going to get you one day, so live it up. 

 

I thank my grandfather for teaching me the beauty of death through his own ending. I have not been afraid to die since that experience.

Yet, not unlike your wife, there are times in the course of life one can't call it a day as they have kids to raise etc. etc.  

You have a good philosophy, X!. 

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My grandfather (mom's side) survived WW2. So he didn't put much stock in religion after that. He'd tell me to just "keep going, because that all we can do." I miss him.

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On 1/30/2017 at 9:34 AM, markdohle said:

 

A good sight, see the one on the Near Death Experience

http://www.focustvonline.com/

 

Lots of wishful thinking (and no small amount of charlatanry) to be found there. Wasted a bit of time with the "evidence of an afterlife" vids to find, unsurprisingly, the title was a misnomer. Could more aptly be called "a biased collection of anecdotes" with the usual fallacies thrown in. Once again, it will be up to science to learn what the "NDE" phenomena (that not everyone experiences) really is. Nothing here would sway anyone who doesn't desperately wish to believe, regardless (or perhaps in spite of) what the truth of it may be.

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22 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Sometime when you give up on life, you can live again. (It's a metaphor)

And a very accurate one!! I live with the best of intentions and dont really worry about the outcome.... 

Considering the age of the earth, ones entire life could be considered a near death experience!

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On 1/30/2017 at 4:56 AM, eight bits said:

It's funny how what you call something influences how your audience perceives the importance of what you say.

NDE: Near death + experience

The first ingredient isn't what distinguishes these cases from the rest of human living. Not one of us is ever farther than a single heartbeat from death. No, what distinguishes these cases is that they are post-traumatic. The subject has managed to survive a grave crisis, an illness or an injury. That's what unusual and distinctive about the reports. Being candid about that reminds the listener that perception, judgment and memory are not at their best on such occasions.

The second ingredient is experience. Doesn't that word mean something that really happened, reported accurately? These are not real-time reports or records. These are recollections afterwards, when the neuro-muscular system of the subject has recovered sufficiently to communicate again. And what is recalled is the accommodation of that neuro-muscular system to the grave illness or injury it needed to recover from in the first place.

Post-traumatic recollections. That's what they are.

Useful conversation begins, I think, when things are called by neutral, candidly descriptive names. You know, calling a spade a spade. Just sayin'.

 

Thank you, good points, but all of them have been tried and found wanting ;-).  It is a phenomenon which will continue to grow, who knows where it will end up.  

 

Peace
Mark

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On 1/30/2017 at 10:06 AM, Sherapy said:

Just an aside (add to): I am in my second journey being a part of one's death process and I am in phone contact with a friend that is currently on Hospice with terminal cancer. IMHO these videos are a way to help a person "relax" into the death process. sort of prepare for the experience of death, eventually. For example; Helen was terrified of dying she did not embrace her "near death experience" at all, there was no way to comfort her and it was not transformative to her. It was her show and that is how she chose to experience her end-- kicking and screaming the whole way.( I say this (non-judgementally). The interesting part (for me) was it was profoundly transformative to me in the sense that I looked at her lifeline and I looked at mine and have set to work to clean house personally. My objective isn't to tell myself stories to deny and avoid the death I will eventually experience, but to use my time in a way that is of value to me and those around me. For me, Helen showed me the things not to do. I have no objections to the story one tells themselves to cope with the idea of death, yet, I do suggest as food for thought that these types of videos can encourage denial and bandage fears and IMHO this is a tough way to go which for those that are prone to fear as a coping strategy or perspective can be debilitating, isolating, to the point one cannot escape their own prison of terror. I think it is a good idea to personally explore the idea of death early in one's life prepare for it. "No one gets out of here alive" death is a given.The Lady I am working with now, on the other hand, is ready to go and talks about her mental and emotional journey openly and candidly, I would describe her as relaxing into the death process, she credits her father with setting an example of how to die ( she is in the end stages of COPD). It is a beautiful experience for her and me, it is inspiring to me in the sense that it is a natural process that is fearless. My lady is comfy with the idea that we just don't know what is on the other side and it doesn't matter. Her thoughts are she is amazed at the things she was able to accomplish in her life and her end is about quality time with her adult children which is going as she anticipated, full of love and joy. My friend on Hospice has created a death experience of fun and celebration. She is taking the opportunity to go out in peace and joy and delights in the feedback of herself as a person according to those who are her friends. She is a joy to talk to.It looks as if I will be working as a person who helps transition people into Palliative and Hospice care I am the person who explains the physical process of dying as asked and fulfill the person's needs wherever they are in their journey. My take away is afterlife's and heavens are immaterial, and ones "hope" typically is to not linger on and suffer needlessly, physically or emotionally.        

 

It is true that we 'really' don't know what is on the other side...perhaps nothing.  However, why would such an experience evolve, how could it since it happens at death?  It is only in modern times when many are brought back from the brink of death that we hear these stories, not from all but from many adding up to the millions.  All the objections have been dealt with.....yet we live in a world where we have to wait.  Well, perhaps not for those who experience an NDE.  You are right of course, not all react the same way, and how we face death is independent on what we believe in my opinion.  I now devout believers who are terrified of death and atheist who are at peace with it......then flip it over and get the reverse.  Thanks, wonderful thoughtful comment.

Peace
Mark

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On 1/30/2017 at 10:17 AM, XenoFish said:

Sometime when you give up on life, you can live again. (It's a metaphor)

Yes a great burden can be let go of.

peace
mark

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19 hours ago, Horta said:

Lots of wishful thinking (and no small amount of charlatanry) to be found there. Wasted a bit of time with the "evidence of an afterlife" vids to find, unsurprisingly, the title was a misnomer. Could more aptly be called "a biased collection of anecdotes" with the usual fallacies thrown in. Once again, it will be up to science to learn what the "NDE" phenomena (that not everyone experiences) really is. Nothing here would sway anyone who doesn't desperately wish to believe, regardless (or perhaps in spite of) what the truth of it may be.

 

No more biased that your reaction.  Which is understandable, I do it, perhaps we all do it....have deep bias and it leads us to many conclusions, we use science or religion to back them up either way.

peace
mark

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5 hours ago, markdohle said:

No more biased that your reaction.  Which is understandable, I do it, perhaps we all do it....have deep bias and it leads us to many conclusions, we use science or religion to back them up either way.

peace
mark

 

More of an observation than a reaction. It's a site full of religious and quasi religious claptrap. It doesn't require a bias to see that the featured vids offer no real evidence of an afterlife, beyond claims and anecdotes. The bigfooters and advanced alien claimants offer the same type of evidence (anecdotes and fallacies) and are about as convincing. With the same claims that people who don't take their word on it, must be biased. Maybe this isn't really so. That site offers what sells to a certain demographic. Same old same old.

I have no problem being open to the possibility that one certain species of tailless monkey and perhaps other mammals found only very recently on a thin layer of one little infinitesimal speck floating around in our vast universe can live forever in some form, or are possibly the pride and joy of some powerful being. Only that I'm not prepared to take other people's beliefs on it as if a truth.

The great significance of the "Near" in NDE and what it can imply (and is consistent with what we understand so far) seems lost on these people, and they have also lost the ability to distinguish between personal belief and genuine knowledge. To make such claims as if fact requires them to be lying (intentionally or otherwise). We may spend our days riding the ether on pretty butterflies being amused by ineffable beings (as suggested by a certain neurosurgeon), but there is no real evidence as yet to suggest such things happen anywhere else but in our own brains (even the so called "out of body" experience can be induced by manipulating the brain). It's just as likely to be the result of fantasy, and a following willingness by other people so enamoured with themselves, and self centred enough, that they can't conceive of a universe without them in it (speaking of bias).

 

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mark

On a point you raised with Sheri

Quote

However, why would such an experience evolve, how could it since it happens at death?

I am unsure what it is about this phenmonenon you think happens only at death. The content of post-traumatic recollections is easily found in recall of ordinary dreams and in reports of waking fantasy, like daydreams.

Let us rehabilitate one observation of fact that you have dismissed as "tried and found wanting." Without exception, these are all survivors' stories.

You cannot argue that PTRs are irrelevant to survival, and then present only what has been said by people who've survived, indeed, people whose stories you have chosen precisely because they survived. That wouldn't be scientific.

As always when you post over here on the death-cage board, I appreciate your doing so. Thank you.

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20 hours ago, Horta said:

 

More of an observation than a reaction. It's a site full of religious and quasi religious claptrap. It doesn't require a bias to see that the featured vids offer no real evidence of an afterlife, beyond claims and anecdotes. The bigfooters and advanced alien claimants offer the same type of evidence (anecdotes and fallacies) and are about as convincing. With the same claims that people who don't take their word on it, must be biased. Maybe this isn't really so. That site offers what sells to a certain demographic. Same old same old.

I have no problem being open to the possibility that one certain species of tailless monkey and perhaps other mammals found only very recently on a thin layer of one little infinitesimal speck floating around in our vast universe can live forever in some form, or are possibly the pride and joy of some powerful being. Only that I'm not prepared to take other people's beliefs on it as if a truth.

The great significance of the "Near" in NDE and what it can imply (and is consistent with what we understand so far) seems lost on these people, and they have also lost the ability to distinguish between personal belief and genuine knowledge. To make such claims as if fact requires them to be lying (intentionally or otherwise). We may spend our days riding the ether on pretty butterflies being amused by ineffable beings (as suggested by a certain neurosurgeon), but there is no real evidence as yet to suggest such things happen anywhere else but in our own brains (even the so called "out of body" experience can be induced by manipulating the brain). It's just as likely to be the result of fantasy, and a following willingness by other people so enamoured with themselves, and self centred enough, that they can't conceive of a universe without them in it (speaking of bias).

 

 

Have you actually studied this subject?  All people of all religions or none, believers and atheist have the experience.  There is also NDE's that are shared:

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/group/firefighters-nde.html

There is too much to discount and the more people study it, the more come to believe.  I am talking about doctors, philosophers etc.  Can you explain that people who have OBE"s come back with veridical knowledge that proved correct with checked out.  

Thanks for your comment ;-).

Peace
mark

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16 hours ago, eight bits said:

mark

On a point you raised with Sheri

I am unsure what it is about this phenmonenon you think happens only at death. The content of post-traumatic recollections is easily found in recall of ordinary dreams and in reports of waking fantasy, like daydreams.

Let us rehabilitate one observation of fact that you have dismissed as "tried and found wanting." Without exception, these are all survivors' stories.

You cannot argue that PTRs are irrelevant to survival, and then present only what has been said by people who've survived, indeed, people whose stories you have chosen precisely because they survived. That wouldn't be scientific.

As always when you post over here on the death-cage board, I appreciate your doing so. Thank you.

 

Of course, that is why we will never be a hundred percent sure, yet they happen, and like I said above, there are shared NDE's.  Raymond Moody has a book out on these experiences, had by people who were simply with the deceased, often with more than one witness, even those who were not family members.  For those who have the experience, it is life changing, and beliefs are flipped over in an instant.....that goes for atheist as well.  Those of us who have not had them, well, we go by faith no matter what we take for truth.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/group.html

Peace

Mark

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4 hours ago, markdohle said:

Have you actually studied this subject?   

Yes, though not only from those who try to sell it. That's why I know they are biased.

Quote

All people of all religions or none, believers and atheist have the experience.

This doesn't change the fact that the site you offer seems full of religious and quasi religious claptrap though, does it.

Quote

That's a second/third hand anecdote from someone who uses it, and the subject in general, to prop up mormonism. Whatever truth there might be to it, why would you think it unexplainable without resorting to the usual afterlife beliefs? Can you point to anything showing some depth of research into a possible unbiased explanation, perhaps consultation with unbiased scientists who (unlike himself) do have quite a bit of relevant knowledge? What has been researched in any depth, how has it been discounted, before accepting it as indicative of the reality of an afterlife and the mormon god? What has been used to back the claim that it must be indicative of this (apart from belief)?

There is a difference between research and peddling a belief. Compare the neurosurgeon (Eben Alexander) who eschewed science to sell paperbacks and become a darling of the airy fairy...to the neuroscientist (with strong religious beliefs) who had similar experience, yet put it in a paper for his colleagues and other scientists to study and comment on.

Around 40,000 people saw the sun change into a kaleidoscope of colors and do a spinning dance across the sky, early last century (though not everyone who was present saw it). This is more than a few firefighters and they weren't suffering a trauma which could affect the brain and should be far more convincing. Does this mean that heliophysics and physics itself, has it all wrong? That stars can simply change to any colour they like, and flit anywhere they like with no effects on the planets orbiting them etc? Seems unlikely.

All sorts of weird shared experiences happen.

Quote

There is too much to discount and the more people study it, the more come to believe.  I am talking about doctors, philosophers etc. 

Well some doctors and philosophers believe it, must be so then...

Quote

Can you explain that people who have OBE"s come back with veridical knowledge that proved correct with checked out.  

In some circumstances this can happen, and is explainable. It is a fascinating topic and needs more genuine study, but for the most part it's nonsense (not necessarily all of it is though).

As I'm not the one making grandiose claims, can you give your own explanation for this? Something that might be verifiable and indicate that people can travel invisibly and undetectably yet maintain all mental faculties without taking their brain? As it is you that is making such claims, what is your theory?

Can you explain why attempts to verify this under controlled conditions (such as a scientific experiment with those who have OBE) always seem to fail?

We know that consciousness arises from brain function. Whatever affects the brain, and the level to which it has been affected, has a corresponding effect on consciousness. 

Yet you are saying that when the brain suffers the ultimate damage and no longer functions at all, that's when consciousness is at it's best, never been better. Can you explain how this works?

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On 1/31/2017 at 1:41 PM, markdohle said:

It is true that we 'really' don't know what is on the other side...perhaps nothing.  However, why would such an experience evolve, how could it since it happens at death?  It is only in modern times when many are brought back from the brink of death that we hear these stories, not from all but from many adding up to the millions.  All the objections have been dealt with.....yet we live in a world where we have to wait.  Well, perhaps not for those who experience an NDE.  You are right of course, not all react the same way, and how we face death is independent on what we believe in my opinion.  I now devout believers who are terrified of death and atheist who are at peace with it......then flip it over and get the reverse.  Thanks, wonderful thoughtful comment.

Peace
Mark

 
 

I'd say It is not death if you survive, it means you came close. My son was hit by a car and was in a coma for 11 days came out after being knocked out on heavy duty drugs with some God stories and other babble, he was traumatized at what he was told he lived through, as a way to cope. some especially a young person facing the reality that they could die in an instant is a lot to process. I think Paul brings in a good point when he says these are survivor stories they do not support or evidence an afterlife, but they can help one recover, make sense of an illness or accident, stories help us make sense of things it doesn't mean it is fact, yet what they don't tell you is how the story wears off and they have to live with the damages from the trauma. My son took a year to get over his accident mentally, it was a long road back.The better question is how does it serve you to believe in NDE"s?      

  

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Sheri

Quote

I'd say It is not death if you survive, ...

Word.

I think the story of your son's accident, and his long recovery put paid to the idea that the capacity for PTRs is somehow irrelevant to survival. In order to survive, something has to sustain the survivors' will to endure the unavoidable suffering in the meantime. Quitting is always an option, and "easy" enough to be tempting.

What that sustaining force is will differ from person to person. It isn't always  a PTR. Even within PTRs, there are different qualities directly related to the issue of boosting the survivor's will to recovery.

For example, some but not all PTRs include being told that "it isn't your time yet" or the person remembers making a choice whether or not to "come back." Sometimes the "return" is linked with some "mission" on Earth (easy enough to imagine for a parent of young children, for example, but others in different circumstances receive their own "commissions" as well). Carl Jung's PTR included the emotional blackmail that someone else would die in his place, forcefully making the point that he'd better make good use of his new lease on life. (His attending physician died shortly after Jung recovered from heart disease.)

Of course, episodes of severe physical illness or injury aren't the only times when a person's capacity to survive might be improved by an encouraging psychological experience. That would help to explain why PTRs so much resemble other, literally everyday emotionally charged recollections, like vivid dreams.


mark

Quote

and like I said above, there are shared NDE's.

and shared dreams, too.

Quote

For those who have the experience, it is life changing,

But an experience needn't be veridical to be life changing.

Quote

and beliefs are flipped over in an instant.

Enantiodromia is part of life. It is a feature of belief that it is labile. Another feature is that at any given time, confidence in a belief may be much too great or much too small. Fortunately, confidence is labile, too.

The folk parable of Goldilocks is instructive. Before she arrives at what is "just right," she repeatedly encounters one alternative that is "too much" and then another that is "too little." Enantiodromia made concrete. There's a lot of that back-and-forth surrounding our beliefs and our confidence in them.

Peace back at you.

Edited by eight bits
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10 hours ago, Horta said:

Yes, though not only from those who try to sell it. That's why I know they are biased.

This doesn't change the fact that the site you offer seems full of religious and quasi religious claptrap though, does it.

That's a second/third hand anecdote from someone who uses it, and the subject in general, to prop up mormonism. Whatever truth there might be to it, why would you think it unexplainable without resorting to the usual afterlife beliefs? Can you point to anything showing some depth of research into a possible unbiased explanation, perhaps consultation with unbiased scientists who (unlike himself) do have quite a bit of relevant knowledge? What has been researched in any depth, how has it been discounted, before accepting it as indicative of the reality of an afterlife and the mormon god? What has been used to back the claim that it must be indicative of this (apart from belief)?

There is a difference between research and peddling a belief. Compare the neurosurgeon (Eben Alexander) who eschewed science to sell paperbacks and become a darling of the airy fairy...to the neuroscientist (with strong religious beliefs) who had similar experience, yet put it in a paper for his colleagues and other scientists to study and comment on.

Around 40,000 people saw the sun change into a kaleidoscope of colors and do a spinning dance across the sky, early last century (though not everyone who was present saw it). This is more than a few firefighters and they weren't suffering a trauma which could affect the brain and should be far more convincing. Does this mean that heliophysics and physics itself, has it all wrong? That stars can simply change to any colour they like, and flit anywhere they like with no effects on the planets orbiting them etc? Seems unlikely.

All sorts of weird shared experiences happen.

Well some doctors and philosophers believe it, must be so then...

In some circumstances this can happen, and is explainable. It is a fascinating topic and needs more genuine study, but for the most part it's nonsense (not necessarily all of it is though).

As I'm not the one making grandiose claims, can you give your own explanation for this? Something that might be verifiable and indicate that people can travel invisibly and undetectably yet maintain all mental faculties without taking their brain? As it is you that is making such claims, what is your theory?

Can you explain why attempts to verify this under controlled conditions (such as a scientific experiment with those who have OBE) always seem to fail?

We know that consciousness arises from brain function. Whatever affects the brain, and the level to which it has been affected, has a corresponding effect on consciousness. 

Yet you are saying that when the brain suffers the ultimate damage and no longer functions at all, that's when consciousness is at it's best, never been better. Can you explain how this works?

 

You are very through LOL.  Time will tell my friend......thanks for the time.  One thing, you can't control NDE's, unless you got someone and induced one over and over again, to see if he would have an OBE LOL.  I see your point, science perhaps can't deal with this, people will have to make up their own mind.

 One reason I believe that people throughout history have believed in 'another world' is because of these incidents in people's lives.   They happen, are real, but yes they are subjective.....though, I think the shared NDE's could be the tie breaker, they are more than just subjective, but experienced by more than one, and not expected at all by those experience them.

Peace
Mark

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7 hours ago, Sherapy said:

I'd say It is not death if you survive, it means you came close. My son was hit by a car and was in a coma for 11 days came out after being knocked out on heavy duty drugs with some God stories and other babble, he was traumatized at what he was told he lived through, as a way to cope. some especially a young person facing the reality that they could die in an instant is a lot to process. I think Paul brings in a good point when he says these are survivor stories they do not support or evidence an afterlife, but they can help one recover, make sense of an illness or accident, stories help us make sense of things it doesn't mean it is fact, yet what they don't tell you is how the story wears off and they have to live with the damages from the trauma. My son took a year to get over his accident mentally, it was a long road back.The better question is how does it serve you to believe in NDE"s?      

  

 

Good points.  Perhaps your question is the wrong one.  Are they real.? You say they have a purpose but don't point to anything beyond, but a coping mechanism, those who have NDE's say something else.  I don't have the answer..., like I said, I am a believer but think we should all learn with the tension that we will never know, but can only search, and perhaps come to some belief or faith.  If we don't that is still a form of believing in how the world is made up.   Both believers and unbelievers (yes a simplistic way to look at people) will have to come to the reality that there is a big question mark on everything we ask about life that gives it meaning.  I think it should be that way.  Those who are totally convinced of either stance, of atheism or theism, can be dangerous. 

From a true believe/of sorts/yet I believe/with some doubt/and some hope

Peace
mark

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