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Right wing ideas for saving the environment


travelnjones

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Howdy folks

This is going to be a little game for the folks on the board that self identify as right leaning.  As a thought experiment lets come up with solutions for climate change and the environment. 

My disclaimer here I follow idealist philosophies and don't believe in a physical universe, let alone a climate to be changed.  We are all just playing along that there is a climate that is changing and we need ideas to fix it. 

 

My personal thought is less humans

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Just now, travelnjones said:

My personal thought is less humans

Oh goodie, another anit-Human.  And how would you make this "less humans" thing happen?

BTW, this thread isn't going to go well for you at all.  It's an intentional attempt at starting a flame war.  And why does "climate change" need to be addressed at all?  News flash, it's the Earth, climate changes, it has and it always will.

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7 minutes ago, travelnjones said:

My personal thought is less humans

Ok. Here is your map. gt1f.gif Now, do you want to wipe out Africa, the Middle East, or both?

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My theory is even when we agree on climate change needing fixing.  we wont agree on how to fix it.

but seriously I would like to see people would come up with, Hopefully without comment from the other side. until there are a few ideas at the very least.  I know people don't like my ideas most of the time.  

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Just now, travelnjones said:

My theory is even when we agree on climate change needing fixing.  we wont agree on how to fix it.

"We" don't necessarily agree that it needs a fixing.  But, if it does, fleecing money from taxpayers isn't the way to do it.

Just now, travelnjones said:

but seriously I would like to see people would come up with, Hopefully without comment from the other side. until there are a few ideas at the very least.  I know people don't like my ideas most of the time.  

What are your ideas, exactly?

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I was speaking generally but more push for single child families.  Showing only children in a non negative light in movies and tv. 

I hate ideas of carbon offset I think they are very much like indulgences, but a city owned greenbelt that maintains trees in proportion to population is a thought.

Edited by travelnjones
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The sun changes our climate as it goes through cycles. We cannot control that.

Continental drift changes our climate. We cannot control that.

Climate keeps changing. We cannot control that.

What we can do is try to predict what changes the climate will go through, just like with the weather, and prepare for those changes.

I think too much time has been wasted at this point, with two Scandals of Fake Data for man made climate change, that could have been better devoted to greater understanding and preparation for changes that will inevitably occur. 

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3 minutes ago, travelnjones said:

I was speaking generally but more push for single child families.  

There is no reason to push for single child families in most nations since most nations already have a shrinking population. Controlling population in those nations of Africa and the Middle East can only be done from the outside by punishing their governments if they do not promote and enforce with punishments themselves those who have too many children. 

Instead Europe and the USA have responded to the overpopulating nations by allowing their excess populations to spill over into their own nations, posing direct threats to their own citizens, and creating more expansion room for global overpopulation.

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More people would be on board with making changes if it translated to personal gain. For example, if new home construction added affordable solar panels to rooftops, thereby eliminating power bills. Built-in rainwater collection systems, gray-water recycling, barrel type wind turbines (VAWT - Vertical Axis Wind Turbine) and so on, would all add up to personal savings. 

Edited by simplybill
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8 minutes ago, simplybill said:

More people would be on board with making changes if it translated to personal gain. For example, if new home construction added affordable solar panels to rooftops, thereby eliminating power bills. Built-in rainwater collection systems, gray-water recycling, barrel type wind turbines (VAWT - Vertical Axis Wind Turbine) and so on, would all add up to personal savings. 

I like that one, if you add in something like the tesla power wall unit you also, have resistance to power outage/ grid failure.

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23 hours ago, travelnjones said:

My theory is even when we agree on climate change needing fixing.  we wont agree on how to fix it.

but seriously I would like to see people would come up with, Hopefully without comment from the other side. until there are a few ideas at the very least.  I know people don't like my ideas most of the time.  

"Conservative" ways to address climate change?  It appears some Republicans may have beat you to it.  A group of several Senators/Congressmen has approached Trmp about a "carbon tax" with all proceeds to be returned to citizens on a per capita basis.  I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that idea was first proposed by James Hansen about 20 years ago.

Personally, I disagree with some of the details of their proposal, but it is head-and-shoulders above anything else anybody has proposed.  More power to them if they can do it.

Doug

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23 hours ago, travelnjones said:

I like that one, if you add in something like the tesla power wall unit you also, have resistance to power outage/ grid failure.

That proposal in Post 11 will make it possible for all citizens - at least tax-paying ones - to get a share of the pie.

Some other ideas:  those Appalachian coal miners could benefit from wind power if we started putting windmills on old strip-mine land in West Virginia.  Each of those towers has a land-rental value of $8000 per month (at least in Oklahoma).  Even if West Virginia's wind resources aren't as good as Oklahoma's they should still be worth at least $5000 a month.  If you really pack them in, you could fit one tower on ten acres, but one to 40 acres is more likely.  That makes a 120-acre run-down hill farm worth $180,000 a year!  And you don't have to use reclaimed land - there are thousands of acres of orphan spoils that would cost a little more to develop, but would still generate a fortune.  And then there's jobs:  each tower has to be built and maintained.  Transmission lines have to be built to carry the power and the grid has to be upgraded to handle the increased load.

Tesla is already building a battery plant in Nevada to produce C-cell-sized batteries "faster than a machine gun can fire."  Those batteries are intended for a new line of electric cars, all of which have to be built and maintained.

The new technologies are starting to come on line.

Doug

Edited by Doug1029
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It seems like their plan might be to speed up the destruction of the air and oceans until everyone dies and the Earth repairs itself.

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Just now, The Narcisse said:

It seems like their plan might be to speed up the destruction of the air and oceans until everyone dies and the Earth repairs itself.

How so?

Doug

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3 hours ago, Doug1o29 said:

That proposal in Post 11 will make it possible for all citizens - at least tax-paying ones - to get a share of the pie.

Some other ideas:  those Appalachian coal miners could benefit from wind power if we started putting windmills on old strip-mine land in West Virginia.  Each of those towers has a land-rental value of $8000 per month (at least in Oklahoma).  Even if West Virginia's wind resources aren't as good as Oklahoma's they should still be worth at least $5000 a month.  If you really pack them in, you could fit one tower on ten acres, but one to 40 acres is more likely.  That makes a 120-acre run-down hill farm worth $180,000 a year!  And you don't have to use reclaimed land - there are thousands of acres of orphan spoils that would cost a little more to develop, but would still generate a fortune.  And then there's jobs:  each tower has to be built and maintained.  Transmission lines have to be built to carry the power and the grid has to be upgraded to handle the increased load.

Tesla is already building a battery plant in Nevada to produce C-cell-sized batteries "faster than a machine gun can fire."  Those batteries are intended for a new line of electric cars, all of which have to be built and maintained.

The new technologies are starting to come on line.

Doug

why one question with this is will the area support wind generation.  Green folks really like wind but living in California near the Altamont pass, you would often see turbines not going.  I understand the new ones are way better.  But still you would often think it seems a little windy why aren't they turning

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I know this isn't a super popular idea but I think, a mar mission would an idea.  Most folks think of it as throwing cash away, I know.  but I think it would really drive solar and battery technology along with many other tech sectors.   If they technologies could be passed along to American companies, US First Right, it could support growth for years.  Tech investments from the space program paid off in private sector in 70/80's right?

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On 2/8/2017 at 8:44 PM, travelnjones said:

Howdy folks

This is going to be a little game 

My disclaimer here I follow idealist philosophies and don't believe in a physical universe, let alone a climate to be changed. 

 

Idealist philosophies? You mean those that dont fit reality? You dont believe in a physical universe? Oh boy.....

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yep the universe and others don't exist.  It's just me and God as I see it.  But if look at the rest of the post it was only said to point out that the post is just a thought experiment and encourage others that may not believe in climate change. 

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18 hours ago, travelnjones said:

why one question with this is will the area support wind generation.  Green folks really like wind but living in California near the Altamont pass, you would often see turbines not going.  I understand the new ones are way better.  But still you would often think it seems a little windy why aren't they turning

I haven't checked, but I suspect West Virginia wouldn't be as good a place for windmills as Oklahoma or Iowa.  Even so, this can be equalized with a lower land rental rate.  And we do need to gets jobs into those mountains.  A slightly lower efficiency might well be worth it to do that.

Altamont is obsolete.  Also, the power may not be needed at the moment.

Doug

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On 2/8/2017 at 1:08 PM, Bella-Angelique said:

The sun changes our climate as it goes through cycles. We cannot control that.

Continental drift changes our climate. We cannot control that.

Climate keeps changing. We cannot control that.

What we can do is try to predict what changes the climate will go through, just like with the weather, and prepare for those changes.

I think too much time has been wasted at this point, with two Scandals of Fake Data for man made climate change, that could have been better devoted to greater understanding and preparation for changes that will inevitably occur. 

OK, we cannot control climate change, but as you say there is a lot we can do. We encourage our allies to stop building nuclear reactors in tsunami plains a la Fukushima.  That debris washed up on my coast.  We don't let the levees in the Mississippi basin erode, we put our tax dollars into remediation.  If weather patterns lead to more frequent hurricanes and tornadoes we build storm shelters.  We encourage agricultural colleges to experiment with drought resistant crops.  There are a lot of actions that could be taken, most of them would be good investments in our country whether the climate changes as rapidly as predicted or not.  The military has long been running scenarios of global instability caused by food  and water shortages. They probably have a pretty good idea of what is likely to happen already.

Yeah Doug, we could take advantage of all of those new technologies you mentioned.  We don't need a Mars mission to spur development, it is already happening.  Not that I am against Mars Missions, but there are more economical ways to move quickly on tech development.  With the Chinese and Indians cranking out scientists and engineers at their current rate, it will be a tech race.  We will have to work hard to keep our edge.

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On ‎10‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 10:43 AM, travelnjones said:

yep the universe and others don't exist.  It's just me and God as I see it.  But if look at the rest of the post it was only said to point out that the post is just a thought experiment and encourage others that may not believe in climate change. 

You call that voice in your head "God"?

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On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 3:08 PM, Bella-Angelique said:

The sun changes our climate as it goes through cycles. We cannot control that.

Continental drift changes our climate. We cannot control that.

Climate keeps changing. We cannot control that.

What we can do is try to predict what changes the climate will go through, just like with the weather, and prepare for those changes.

I think too much time has been wasted at this point, with two Scandals of Fake Data for man made climate change, that could have been better devoted to greater understanding and preparation for changes that will inevitably occur. 

The solar cycle does influence weather/climate, but not as strongly as deniers seem to think.

If you model climate, you can reproduce the effect of continental drift with a constant.  It is so slow that in terms of data analysis, it doesn't occur at all.

Natural climate change is of a greater amplitude than human-caused climate change.  BUT:  natural climate change is either cyclical and corrects itself within a few years, or random and damps out over a few years, eg. dust from a volcanic eruption settling out of the atmosphere.  Human-caused climate change is persistent.  Once a change occurs, it stays around.  Carbon persists in the atmosphere for at least 300 years and maybe as long as a thousand (half-lives).  Each minor man-caused change is added to previous changes and the effects accumulate.

Doug

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7 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

You call that voice in your head "God"?

I post that just to say where I was coming from.  This post is really not about belief, mine or others.  There are no voices, I don't assume what I am experiencing comes from self.  But again environmental ideas conservative folks like.

I don't like the broad environmental laws but like local parks and green belts for example. 

For Doug:  I would question if its not changed to something different then those changes are adapted to, or not, in both cases.  As in changes, man made or natural, create a better system for animals a,b,c and worse for e,f,g.  Animals A,B,C flourish and hunter D eats them.  Hunter D over eats A,B,C, now H,I,J flourish. 

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8 minutes ago, travelnjones said:

I post that just to say where I was coming from.  This post is really not about belief, mine or others.  There are no voices, I don't assume what I am experiencing comes from self.  But again environmental ideas conservative folks like.

I don't like the broad environmental laws but like local parks and green belts for example. 

For Doug:  I would question if its not changed to something different then those changes are adapted to, or not, in both cases.  As in changes, man made or natural, create a better system for animals a,b,c and worse for e,f,g.  Animals A,B,C flourish and hunter D eats them.  Hunter D over eats A,B,C, now H,I,J flourish. 

The problem is that we're animal e.  The consensus is that climate disruption will be an increasing problem for the next 300 years or so.  If it persists longer than that, we are likely to see an ecosystem collapse that could well kill us off along with a lot of other critters.

Doug

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On 2/8/2017 at 3:53 PM, Bella-Angelique said:

Ok. Here is your map. gt1f.gif Now, do you want to wipe out Africa, the Middle East, or both?

Your data are a bit outdated, let's see something more fresh:

Résultats de recherche d'images pour « population growth world map »


On your map, orange and red were over 2% growth, on my map, two decades later, only the red ones are still above 2%. So there's still some heat in Central America, but for the rest, the worst is over. In South East Asia, only Laos and Bhutan are still above 2%, all the rest have cold down, even below 1% more often than not. In West and South Asia, only Pakistan and Afghanistan are problematic. In South West Asia, namely the Arabian peninsula, it's still a hotspot for population growth. Africa is cooling too, North Africa and Southern Africa, plus a few countries here and there. Central and West Africa are problematic.

But all that means little unless we know how much population density there is already in these countries. So here a map:
Résultats de recherche d'images pour « population density »

Europe and East Asia show little population growth, but they are already quite full, growth is the last thing they need. India is in major trouble already and its growth is just average, it would need to be very low for a few centuries. On the other hand, Africa looks much less alarming with this map, they'll probably just go through a modern medicine induced babyboom phase before they industrialize.

Now how to reduce the growth. Better agricultural practice will require less hands in this field of activity and will boost urbanization. Urbanization in turn make families live in small habitations, which will physically pressure for smaller families. A good investment would be in cheap education, specially girls education, as this is the most effective factor which make families smaller. When girls stay longer in school, they usually don't bear children. But this is all part of a wider phenomenon, economic growth = lower or even reverse population growth.

As the Millennium Development Goals showed, economic growth pull more people out of poverty than international aids. China and India improved the live of hundreds of millions of the poorest people on earth just because their economy improved. A better economy in these high growth countries will make agriculture more efficient, will promote urbanization and make education more affordable, which in turn will make families smaller.

Another factor will be the improvement of medicine. In very poor countries right now, and among our ancestors even just a century ago, they could expect about half of their children to die before they reach adulthood. Also, with no government pension, they needed to be sure they had enough living children around, so that together, they would have enough resources to take care of their old parents. In Western and East Asian countries, there's no need for spare children anymore.

So economy improvement is the best solution for population growth. Is this right leaning enough?

Edited by Gingitsune
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