Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -

Will Tanakh/Old Testament predictions occur?


rakovsky

Do you believe Tanakh/Old Testament prophecy is for real and if something is predicted to definitely occur, then it will?  

20 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you believe Tanakh/Old Testament prophecy is for real and if something is predicted to definitely occur, then it will?

    • Most likely Yes
    • Most Likely No
    • Other/N.A.


Recommended Posts

I. Jews and Christians agree that in Tanakh/the "Old Testament", there are predictions of a future resurrection of the dead.

For example, Isaiah 26 (Judaica Press Tanakh translation) says:

  • 19 Thy dead shall live, my dead bodies shall arise--awake and sing, ye that dwell in the dust--for Thy dew is as the dew of light, and the earth shall bring to life the shades. {P}
  • 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee; hide thyself for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
  • 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of His place to visit upon the inhabitants of the earth their iniquity; the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Jewish Virtual Library says that this refers to the future resurrection:

Quote

In the canonical Scriptures the first allusion to a return of the dead to life is made in Isaiah 26:19.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0015_0_15058.html

Hosea 5 (JPT) describes the Lord destroying Israel like a lion kills its prey, and then breaking the corpsedown like decay breaks down something dead:

 
Quote

 

10The princes of Judah were like those who remove the landmark; upon them will I pour My wrath like water.   יהָיוּ שָׂרֵי יְהוּדָה כְּמַסִּיגֵי גְּבוּל עֲלֵיהֶם אֶשְׁפּוֹךְ כַּמַּיִם עֶבְרָתִי:
11Ephraim is plundered, broken by judgment, because he desired and followed a command.   יאעָשׁוּק אֶפְרַיִם רְצוּץ מִשְׁפָּט כִּי הוֹאִיל הָלַךְ אַחֲרֵי צָו:
12And I am like a moth to Ephraim and like decay to the house of Judah.   יבוַאֲנִי כָעָשׁ לְאֶפְרָיִם וְכָרָקָב לְבֵית יְהוּדָה:
13And Ephraim saw his ailment, and Judah his pain, and Ephraim went to Assyria, and he sent to the king of Yarev, but he will not be able to heal you, and he will not remove the pain from you.   יגוַיַּרְא אֶפְרַיִם אֶת חָלְיוֹ וִיהוּדָה אֶת מְזֹרוֹ וַיֵּלֶךְ אֶפְרַיִם אֶל אַשּׁוּר וַיִּשְׁלַח אֶל מֶלֶךְ יָרֵב וְהוּא לֹא יוּכַל לִרְפֹּא לָכֶם וְלֹא יִגְהֶה מִכֶּם מָזוֹר:
14For I am like a young lion to Ephraim and like a lion's whelp to the house of Judah; I, yea I, will tear and I will go away; I will carry off and no one will rescue.   ידכִּי אָנֹכִי כַשַּׁחַל לְאֶפְרַיִם וְכַכְּפִיר לְבֵית יְהוּדָה אֲנִי אֲנִי אֶטְרֹף וְאֵלֵךְ אֶשָּׂא וְאֵין מַצִּיל:
15I will go away and return to My place until they admit their guilt and seek My face; in their straits they will seek Me.   טואֵלֵךְ אָשׁוּבָה אֶל מְקוֹמִי עַד אֲשֶׁר יֶאְשְׁמוּ וּבִקְשׁוּ פָנָי בַּצַּר לָהֶם יְשַׁחֲרֻנְנִי:


 

 

Hosea 6 (JPT) then has the Israelites saying that the Lord will return them to life, "reviving" them, so that they "live" before the Lord:

Quote
1Come and let us return to the Lord, for He has torn and He shall heal us; He smites, and He will bind us up.   אלְכוּ וְנָשׁוּבָה אֶל יְהֹוָה כִּי הוּא טָרָף וְיִרְפָּאֵנוּ יַךְ וְיַחְבְּשֵׁנוּ:
2He will revive us from the two days, on the third day He will set us up, and we will live before Him.   ביְחַיֵּינוּ מִיֹּמָיִם בַּיּוֹם הַשְּׁלִישִׁי יְקִמֵנוּ וְנִחְיֶה לְפָנָיו:
3And let us know, let us strive to know the Lord: like the dawn whose going forth is sure, and He will come to us like rain, like the latter rain which satisfies the earth.   גוְנֵדְעָה נִרְדְּפָה לָדַעַת אֶת יְהֹוָה כְּשַׁחַר נָכוֹן מֹצָאוֹ וְיָבוֹא כַגֶּשֶׁם לָנוּ כְּמַלְקוֹשׁ יוֹרֶה אָרֶץ:
4What shall I do for you, Ephraim? What shall I do for you, Judah? For your loving-kindness is like a morning cloud and like the dew that passes away early.   דמָה אֶעֱשֶׂה לְּךָ אֶפְרַיִם מָה אֶעֱשֶׂה לְּךָ יְהוּדָה וְחַסְדְּכֶם כַּעֲנַן בֹּקֶר וְכַטַּל מַשְׁכִּים הֹלֵךְ:
5Because I have hewed by the prophets, I have put them to death because of the words of My mouth; now will your verdicts come out to the light?   העַל כֵּן חָצַבְתִּי בַּנְּבִיאִים הֲרַגְתִּים בְּאִמְרֵי פִי וּמִשְׁפָּטֶיךָ אוֹר יֵצֵא:

It compares the Lord's coming to them like to the "latter rain" that enlivens the earth. That "latter rain" is a reference to the rain at the end of the spring or summer when the earth is dry. it suggests that even though there has already been rain, this will be like a latter rain. Even though events have already occurred, the Lord will provide another future refreshment that will enliven the deceased Israelites.

Dr. L. Bronner writes about Hosea's belief in afterlife:

Quote

 

The book of Hosea demonstrates that the concept of the afterlife, and even the idea of resurrection, may have emerged at an early date in ancient Israel. ... The prophet strikes out against Israelite idolatry and attachment to Baal-centered worship, and points out that God, like Baal, has the power to resurrect. Just as Baal was able to overcome the grave and rise again, Hosea seemed to want to show that God too could give life after death.
 

There are two possibilities for Hoseaís take on the afterlife. First, the text may have been polemical, reacting to the beliefs of neighboring cultures, and demonstrating Godís power over nature. Secondly, Hosea may not have been reacting to foreign ideas at all, but rather may have been referencing ideas that were already entrenched in Israelite society. His comment regarding the afterlife is distinctly different from the Baal cult in that he deals with individual and national resurrection, not a dying and rising deity. Thus initial stages of the concepts of the afterlife and in particular, of resurrection, seem to have appeared earlier rather than later in ancient Israel as hereto for thought.

...

The first verse [Hos. 6:1] describes the people begging to be healed by God from their ìwoundedî state. The request in the second verse intensifies with the paired verbs hyh and qwm, depicting the people asking not only to be healed but also to be revived to new life. The people apparently had been sick or wounded to the point of death, so they beseeched God to resurrect them again to life.

 

She says that the "the simple meaning of" "the verb roots hyh and qwm in Hosea 6:3"

Quote

 

clearly refers to bringing back to life. Why shouldnít we read them with this simple meaning, if the context does not require the reader to assume sickness? Other scholars concur. Mauchline also grapples with the problem of whether the language suggests healing or revival from death, but ends up concluding that the text suggests resurrection. He writes, ìThe words in verse 2 ëHe will revive usí seem to speak of a revival after death.î Spronk believes that Hosea 6:1-3 is derived from the belief in real liberation from the world of the dead as part of a cyclical conception of beatific afterlife, and does not refer only to healing from sickness.

Andersen also opts for the resurrection motif: ìVerse 2 opens and closes with the statements ëHe will make us live and we shall live.í Explicit hope for resurrection of the body can hardly be denied in this passage but commentators have been reluctant to admit it.î Andersen refers to a later verse on a similar theme: ìI will ransom them from the power of the grave (Sheol) and I will redeem them from deathî (Hos. 13:14). He further states, ìthere lies a picture of death and resurrection [in Hosea] which is widely accepted though not a part of a major dogmatic tradition.î

All the above evidence suggests that Hoseaís imagery is not merely metaphorical. It could indeed refer not only to national revival but also to a personís individual, physical resurrection. The comments quoted above by recent scholars bear witness to a shift in attitude, and indicate that they too accept the possibility of resurrection in Hosea.

http://www.bibleandjewishstudies.net/articles/afterlife.htm

 

She also draws a comparison with Isaiah 26, noting:

Quote

The nature imagery of the dew reviving the dead is reminiscent of the vocabulary and language of nature worship familiar from the surrounding cultures. However, in the Isaiah context, it is the image of the life-giving power of God that resurrects the dead, as the morning dew revives the flowers after a night of darkness. Verses in Hosea 6:3, quoted above, and in Hosea 14:5-6 also contain a similar theme of Godís control of the life-giving power of moisture to revive the dead.

United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism comments about the reference to reviving in Hosea 6:2 on its website:

Quote

the reference point of Hosea is ... to the revival of the people of Israel as is clear from the previous verse (Hosea 6:1): "Come, let us return to God, Although he tore us apart he will heal us. Although he smashed us, he will bandage us."

http://www.uscj.org/JewishLivingandLearning/SocialAction/SocialJustice/CurrentIssues/ReligiousIssues/JewishValues/MessianicJewsAreNotJews.aspx

The Yeshiva.co website says about Hosea 6:

Quote

Body and Soul, Dew and Rain
The blessing of rain is overt by nature. Man knows that after all his toil, preparing the soil, fertilizing, sowing, he is ever dependent upon an open expression of divine compassion - the gift of rain. He recognizes his dependence upon God's goodness in sustaining life on earth. He therefore prays for rain in order to receive God's blessing through it.

This was Israel's intention in seeking God like rain - "Let us know, let us follow on to know the Lord . . . and He shall come to us as the rain, as the latter rains that water the earth" (Hosea 6:3) - like an element which is vital and necessary for worldly existence. The same is true regarding the outward service of God, the fulfillment of Torah commandments. Man merits divine favor in accordance with his toil and effort. This is our overt prayer.

God further teaches, "I will be like dew to Israel" (ibid. 14:6). Here is an additional bond, the benefit of which is not so outwardly recognizable as rain's.

The website then relates this v. 14:6 in Hosea to resurrection in concept, saying:

Quote

The performance of commandments and the joy of commandments are conduits which bring us the dew of life from the bounty of the heavenly treasure, and allow us to enjoy the brilliance of eternal life.

And so, stage by stage, level upon level, ladders are erected between our physical world and the spiritual world of resurrection and the World to Come. This sure and safe passage parallels the actions of man when he plows and sows in order to merit God's blessing via rain and bring to realization that which is hidden in the soil.

Yet there is something higher than this. It is hidden away in the soul, in the secret of the inner uniqueness of Israel, beyond the thoughts and calculations of man. This is what the sages mean when they say that in the future the Almighty will use dew, not rain, in order to resurrect the dead (Shabbat 88b).

"Indeed, in the future, the Almighty will awaken His might, and he will say 'You do not understand what I consider worship. I hereby testify that even in those places where you have completely given up hope, Israel indeed clings to Me.' This comes from the power of the dew which falls without man's noticing, and through this power will God one day resurrect the dead, as it is written, 'I will be as dew for Israel.' The Almighty will reveal the source of His people, Israel, how they clang to him without even knowing it" (Sefer Hazmanim, ibid.).

http://www.yeshiva.co/midrash/shiur.asp?id=5304

The article A Jewish perspective on the Resurrection of Jesus says that Hosea 6 is one passage that talks about the Lord's power to raise the dead::

Quote

Unlike the pagan religions which had stories of a god dying and rising again, the people who bore witness to the resurrection of Jesus were Jews.  And faith in bodily resurrection was not at all unprecedented in Judaism: 1 Kings 17:17-24, 2 Kings 4:18-21,32-37, and 2 Kings 13:20-21 all tell of people being raised from the dead.  Ezekiel’s vision of a valley of dry bones being raised to life, the Hallel psalms (113-118) which are used in the Passover seder, and numerous passages from the Prophets (such as Isaiah 26 and Hosea 6) speak of God’s power to raise the dead to life.

https://christopherbrown.wordpress.com/2010/03/10/a-jewish-perspective-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus/

II. Jewish and Christian tradition contains expectations that Messiah would die and also sees in Daniel a dating predicting apocalyptic, Messianic, or End Time events.

Maimonides writes about the Messiah's death in the Messianic era:

Quote

all those who will be in those days will attain to great perfection, by which he will merit the world to come. The Messiah will then die [as all men], and his son, and his son's son will rule after him. Now God has already described his death; he says: ' לֹא יִכְהֶה וְלֹא יָרוּץ, עַד-יָשִׂים בָּאָרֶץ מִשְׁפָּט; וּלְתוֹרָתוֹ, אִיִּים יְיַחֵלוּ. {פ} ' (Isa. 42:4). His kingdom shall continue for a very long time, while the lives of men will also be prolonged; for by the absence of worries and troubles they shall prolong their lives. Neither should it seem strange that his kingdom will continue for thousands of years

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides

Rashi sees Daniel 9 to be making a prediction about the 1st c. AD, expiation of sin and anointing for the Messiah's work. He writes that the 70 weeks "to terminate the transgression and to end sin" are

Quote

so that Israel should receive their complete retribution in the exile of Titus and his subjugation, in order that their transgressions should terminate, their sins should end, and their iniquities should be expiated, in order to bring upon them eternal righteousness and to anoint upon them (sic) the Holy of Holies: the Ark, the altars, and the holy vessels, which they will bring to them through the king Messiah

 

Rashi  the anointed one / Messiah in the chapter to be King Herod Agrippa of Judea and "cut off" to refer to his being killed:

Quote


And after:
those weeks.

the anointed one will be cut off:
Agrippa, the king of Judea, who was ruling at the time of the destruction, will be slain.

and he will be no more:
Heb. וְאֵין לוֹ, and he will not have.
The meaning is that he will not be.

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16492/jewish/Chapter-9.htm#showrashi=true

 

Christians would normally disagree that the killed "messiah"/anointed one in Daniel 9 is Herod, and would instead say that this chapter refers to Messiah.

Maimonides wrote in his Letter to Yemen that Daniel had discovered the date of the Redemption:

Quote

In your letter you have adverted to the computations of the date of the Redemption and R. Saadia's opinion on the subject. First of all, it devolves upon you to know that no human being will ever be able to determine it precisely as Daniel has already intimated, "For the words are shut up and sealed." (Daniel 12:9). Indeed many hypotheses were advanced by scholars, who fancied that they have discovered the date, as was anticipated in Scripture, "Many will run to and fro, and opinions shall be increased." (Daniel 12:9). That is, there shall be numerous views concerning it.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Epistle_to_Yemen/Complete#3

Putting aside the fact that Christians and the rabbis commonly have different interpretations about Messianic prophecies, my main question is whichever interpretation of the Biblical prophecies is true, what reasons are there to believe that they must in fact be fulfilled? For example, if Isaiah did predict Messiah's death, or Daniel did predict that the Redemption would come in the 1st c. AD, what reasons are there to believe that those prophecies would have to have occurred - other than Jews and Christians saying after the fact that those events did?

That is, I understand that after the 1st century, Jews and Christians could argue that certain figures (eg. Herod Agrippa or Jesus of Nazareth) died in accordance with the prophecies, but what would there have been objectively predict that Messianic prophecies would be fulfilled if they are in fact found in the Tanakh/Old Testament? Could someone in the 2nd c. BC have been able to reliably predict whether Messianic and resurrection prophecies would be fulfilled?

There are three reasons I can think of to argue for this: 1) A belief that the Lord inspired the prophets' writings, and therefore the writings must have been correct; 2) That a paranormal ability for precognition or foretelling the future objectively exists; 3) That the prophets themselves had wise reasons and bases from which they correctly deduced that such events would occur. What do you think of these reasons, and can you think of others?

1) Does the Lord's inspiration mean that the prophecies must occur?
The apologist CARM website explains the belief that the Lord inspired the canonical writings:

 

Quote

 

The word "inspired" is literally "God-breathed."  This is an interesting phrase since it implies that the Scriptures are from the mouth of God.  Likewise, Peter says in 2 Pet. 1:21, "for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." Notice that Peter is stating that prophecy is not the product of human will.  Instead, prophecy occurs by those moved by the Holy Spirit.

Furthermore, we can easily see that the Old Testament Scriptures are full of statements and phrases claiming to be the Word of God.

  1. "Thus says the Lord" occurs 418 times in the NASB, 413 in the KJV
  2. God spoke through prophets
  3. The Spirit of the Lord spoke through people
    2 Sam. 23:2, "The Spirit of the Lord spoke by me, and His word was on my tongue."
    1 Kings 22:24, "Then Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah came near and struck Micaiah on the cheek and said, 'How did the Spirit of the Lord pass from me to speak to you?'"
    2 Chron. 20:14-15, "Then in the midst of the assembly the Spirit of the Lord came upon Jahaziel the son of Zechariah, the son of Benaiah, the son of Jeiel, the son of Mattaniah, the Levite of the sons of Asaph; 15 and he said, 'Listen, all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and King Jehoshaphat: thus says the Lord to you, Do not fear or be dismayed because of this great multitude, for the battle is not yours but God's.'"

Objections

What about the numerous contradictions in the Bible?

  1. It is true that there are difficulties with in the Word of God.  But these are due to copying errors through the centuries.  As more and more historical, archaeological, and manuscript evidence is uncovered, the fewer Bible difficulties there are.  Nevertheless, for an examination of answers to the alleged Bible contradictions, please see Bible Difficulties.

https://carm.org/bible-inspired

I think that the CARM website is dismissing the issue of contradictions too easily, ascribing them simply to copying errors.

For example, in Genesis 1, it talks about the plants being made before the sun, it calls the moon a "light", it says that the earth was made several days after the creation of the light and the earth, it describes the heavens as a firm layer, and it says that there is a water canopy above the firm layer of the heavens. It also says that the sun and stars are set into this firm layer, the heavens. Later, the water canopy flooded the earth in the Great Flood in the Torah that Noah experienced. It looks like a massive contradiction with my understanding of basic astronomy, geology, and biology.

And we haven't even gotten into the details of why the story of Noah's Ark and the Great Flood doesn't seem realistic, like where would all the Flood water go to, or how the flightless birds got to New Zealand after the flood.

 

Besides scripture, some claim that the Lord's inspiration works in believers' lives.

 

Quote

 

5 Inventions That Were God Inspired

As the Heavenly Father creates, so shall His children. Here are five inventors who responded to God’s call to create.
Peanut Products

inspirationscenicsunrisejpg.jpg?as=1&w=4

 

Affectionately known as the ‘Plant Doctor,’ George Washington Carver’s faith was a key component in his inventions. As a science enthusiast, he once asked God to tell him the secrets of the universe, but instead God pointed him to something much smaller – the peanut.

The secrets Carver discovered led to the invention of hundreds of new discoveries including – peanut butter, cosmetics, paint, oil, marble, plywood, and even the dye used in Crayola Crayons. All of his inventions Carver humbly attributes to the Creator having often said, “The Lord has guided me,” and “without my Savior, I am nothing.”

 

http://www.beliefnet.com/inspiration/galleries/5-inventions-that-were-god-inspired-ideas.aspx?p=2

I can see the Lord working through modern people in their moral work, their prayers, and their will to help others philanthropically. However, as a matter of objective judgments of reality, does this mean that predictions that the inspired moral leaders make will necessarily be correct? For example, if G.W.Carver, whom the Lord may have led to make discoveries, made scientific statements about evolution or creationism per the young earth theory, would the Lord's inspiration of G W Carver mean that the statements about reality, or the past or future must be correct? I am skeptical about that.

I can see that God inspired people to share their wealth like Amish families or Christian idealistic small communities, but does that mean that any predictions they make about the future must be true due to their general inspiration by the Lord?

2) There are numerous terms for the ability to foretell the future, like divination, prescience, precognition.

However, what is hard about using this as a gauge for the Tanakh/Old Testament's reliability is that we don't seem to have solid scientific studies creating a consensus in academia that this phenomenon is [roven to be real. Here is one scientific study:

Quote
Epilepsia. 2004 Aug;45(8):982-4.

Prescience as an aura of temporal lobe epilepsy.

RESULTS:

The charts of 218 patients were reviewed from 927 in the database; three had prescience as an ictal feature. The patients' descriptions were very similar in all cases (a profound sense of "knowing" what was going to happen in their environment in the immediate future). The experience was distinct from déjà vu and other psychic experiences. All patients probably have temporal lobe epilepsy. Only one other description of prescience as an ictal feature was found in the literature.

CONCLUSIONS:

Prescience can occur as an ictal feature of temporal lobe epilepsy and represents a previously underreported psychic phenomenon.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15270767

 

So is this saying that some peoples' senses of precognition can be epileptic, and not a real talent?

Here is an article called "We Tried Medieval Divination—And It Worked". In the article, people used a medieval text to make foretune telling, and the book gave back somewhat vague answers. In my view, it just shows the arbitrariness of this method. http://blogs.getty.edu/iris/we-tried-medieval-divination-and-it-worked

The book Divination and Human Nature researches ancient ideas about premonitions and makes the theory that premonitions were seen more as intuition and instinct, rather than as paranormal magic by some philosophers:

Quote

 

Popular attitudes during classical antiquity saw these readings as signs from the gods while modern scholars have treated such beliefs as primitive superstitions. In this book, Peter Struck reveals instead that such phenomena provoked an entirely different accounting from the ancient philosophers. These philosophers produced subtle studies into what was an odd but observable fact—that humans could sometimes have uncanny insights—and their work signifies an early chapter in the cognitive history of intuition.

 

Examining the writings of Plato, Aristotle, the Stoics, and the Neoplatonists, Struck demonstrates that they all observed how, setting aside the charlatans and swindlers, some people had premonitions defying the typical bounds of rationality. Given the wide differences among these ancient thinkers, Struck notes that they converged on seeing this surplus insight as an artifact of human nature, projections produced under specific conditions by our physiology. For the philosophers, such unexplained insights invited a speculative search for an alternative and more naturalistic system of cognition.

 

Recovering a lost piece of an ancient tradition, Divination and Human Nature illustrates how philosophers of the classical era interpreted the phenomena of divination as a practice closer to intuition and instinct than magic.

http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10765.html

 

I understand how intuition can make more sense than paranormal magic. But just because someone's intuition tells them something doesn't mean it must occur.

The Rational Wiki article talks about how claims for precognition rely on anecdotal evidence:

Quote

Most "evidence" for precognition tends to come from anecdotes rather than any actual data — indeed, properly controlled trials show no effect. People who don't do this for a living — such as dear ol' Aunt Gladis who says she can predict the future — tend to rely on confirmation bias and selective reporting, which are both effects of the human mind recalling and confirming some instances and forgetting disconfirming others.

That is to say, dear Aunt Gladis had a dream one night that a plane would crash and the next day one did. So she says to herself "I can predict the future". And if it should happen again, for instance she dreams her son would get sick and he does, that reinforces her belief that she is "seeing the future." However, what she conveniently forgets are the thousands of other dreams that "predicted" the future, which never played out in the real world. This is because cases that don't agree aren't particularly interesting or notable — no one remarks at a lack of co-incidence. Furthermore, the worldwide frequency of plane crashes is about once every 2 or 3 days,[1] so there's an excellent chance that there will be a plane crash within 1 day of dreaming about one.

So should Aunt Gladis be thinking of a dear old friend and then a minute later they happen to call her, she'll remark upon it, but if the friend calls her out of the blue when she wasn't thinking of them, she'll not mention the lack of a premonition. The confirmation bias effect is pretty much responsible for all reports of psychic powers, from mediumship to remote viewing.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Precognition

 

Interestingly, I think precognition does occur paranormally at some level, although I can't prove it. One day I had a dream about seeing a friend who I knew had moved to a far away state, and unbeknownst to me, he happened to come back to visit a neighbor the next day. I understand that it's just anecdotal, possible confirmation bias, etc., but it still feels to me like personal evidence in my life. I would not go so far as to say though that based on this dream, our meeting definitely had to occur.

3) Do you think that the prophets' Biblical reasoning and wisdom is alone enough to prove that the prophecies must occur?

I can see that a wise man can predict the future, but I think they can make mistakes, and just because we conclude that it would be morally or philosophically right for something to occur doesn't prove that it must.

  • Hosea's logic could be that the Lord, since He has destroyed, also has the ability to reenliven.
     
  • He compares the Lord's relationship to Israel to his own relations with his wife in the book. Hosea says that the Lord told him to take a prostitute for a wife. He compares Israel's relations with foreign deities to his own wife's cheating on him. He thinks that just as he loves his wife and takes her back when she repents, that the Lord takes Israel back when it repents. Consequently, when Israel has returned to the Lord, the Lord gives it blessings and provides for Israel. Loving and bestowing blessings on Israel, Hosea can conclude that the Lord bestows his blessing of resurrection on Israel.
     
  • Hosea also compares the resurrection to the latter rains. Just as latter rain can reenliven dry earth and give life to grass, the Lord can bestow life on deceased Israelites.
     
  • Likewise, Hosea may also be comparing the resurrection to the feast of first fruits when he compares the resurrection to the reenlivening of plants on the "third day". This is because in the festival of first fruits, the priest waved the first fruits of the Israelites' harvest before the Lord at the Temple on the third day of Passover. The reenlivened Israelites' living before the Lord that Hosea mentioned might be compared to the first fruits' being placed before the Lord by the priest. Hosea could be seeing in that ritual an allegory for reenlivening and life with God.

Now, I can read in Hosea's story this logic and I can agree that the Lord has the power to reenliven the dead, being God. And I can see that this is the kind of thing He would and should do, if the dead have repented and turned to the Lord. My difficulty in this as a full proof of the resurrection is that I know that unfortunately just because sometimes things could and should happen in my understanding, they don't. For example, I think that the persecution of early Christians or the slaughter of Byzantine Christians in Mamilla in Palestine in the 7th century didn't have to happen, and it morally shouldn't have happened, but it's a sad, real fact that these tragic events did occur.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I completely believe that all the predictions will eventually come to pass.  I also believe they will come in times and ways that are unexpected and those who disbelieve will mostly never accept even the evidence of their senses.  I guess it's the pride of their existence and intellect that keeps them cut off from God.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow, and I thought Lemieux's posts were lengthy. So the invention of the peanut was divinely inspired? :unsure: 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No. Prophecies from any source have proven, throughout human history, to be so vague as to be shoe-horned into vaguely-related events after the fact. No truly verifiable prophecy (ex. at 3:22 on 22/9/2019 such-and-such will happen) has ever verifiably come to pass. As such, there's no more reason to suspect that Christian/Jewish mythology's prophecies hold any more water than the prophecies that have been spoken by the thousands of other religions and "wise-men" throughout history.

Edited by Podo
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/14/2017 at 2:53 AM, and then said:

I completely believe that all the predictions will eventually come to pass. 

Do you have any basis for this belief other than what I gave in my opening post?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, but I like your avatar.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/14/2017 at 2:04 AM, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

Wow, and I thought Lemieux's posts were lengthy. So the invention of the peanut was divinely inspired? :unsure: 

After eating my first PB&J on whole wheat, I never doubted it. :) 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Jewish and Christian explanation seems to be that the Biblical prophets weren't just secular "diviners" or oracles, but rather that the Supreme Being was directing and guiding them to make the Biblical predictions. Wouldn't this tend to suggest that such a gift of prophecy exists in the secular world too?

Theopedia mentions about this:

Quote

Unbelievers/false prophets might possess it as well (John 11:51, Mark 13:22, also Deut 13:1-3). The test for the genuineness of the prophet is the fruits of his/her ministry (Matt 7:15-20)

https://www.theopedia.com/gift-of-prophecy

 

In the Bible, sometimes predictions are given through dreams. I think that in the real world this might happen. But it's hard to know what to make of that, because the scientific community is pretty skeptical about paranormal predictions, and anyway, how would that work? How could a material, physical human brain make major predictions about the distant future, like about resurrection or the coming of a Messiah?

This science article mentions the difficulty of supporting the ability because of theoretical difficulties in understanding how it works, despite studies suggesting that it can::

Quote

 

Presentiment without any external clues may, in fact, exist, according to new Northwestern University research that analyzes the results of 26 studies published between 1978 and 2010.

"What hasn't been clear is whether humans have the ability to predict future important events even without any clues as to what might happen," said Julia Mossbridge, lead author of the study and research associate in the Visual Perception, Cognition and Neuroscience Laboratory at Northwestern.

"I like to call the phenomenon 'anomalous anticipatory activity,'" she said. "The phenomenon is anomalous, some scientists argue, because we can't explain it using present-day understanding about how biology works; though explanations related to recent quantum biological findings could potentially make sense.

 The study, "Predictive Physiological Anticipation Preceding Seemingly Unpredictable Stimuli: A Meta-Analysis,"

 

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2012-10/nu-cyb102212.php

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For example, Isaiah 26 (Judaica Press Tanakh translation) says:

  • 19 Thy dead shall live, my dead bodies shall arise--awake and sing, ye that dwell in the dust--for Thy dew is as the dew of light, and the earth shall bring to life the shades. {P}
  • 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee; hide thyself for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
  • 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of His place to visit upon the inhabitants of the earth their iniquity; the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

 

I believe this one happens constantly in every generation. 

Would also have to look in my different Bible versions and commentaries to understand if it has already come to pass. As fulfilled prophecy is important to understand as well.

For a more traditional understanding without the prophetic overtones I suggest commentary by Rashi.

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15957/jewish/Chapter-26.htm#showrashi=true

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had to vote no due to the tack on ;  the second part of the question, which seemed very broad and undefined  ... all sorts of people  claim their predictions  will  definitely  occur ...    and constantly we see they do not . 

That could be a reason for the high no vote .... even if people agreed with the first part of your question . 

This how 'polls'  can  give skewered results  .... depending on interpretations of answers .  

 

Edited by back to earth
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/14/2017 at 3:04 AM, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

. So the invention of the peanut was divinely inspired? :unsure: 

It says " peanut butter " was inspired, although I suppose peanuts were if God inspires Evolution.

Quote


American Food by the Decades - Page 19

 his peanut-inspired invention—a mill for grinding peanuts into a buttery paste.

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/26/2017 at 6:19 AM, Avatar Samantha Ai said:

For example, Isaiah 26 (Judaica Press Tanakh translation) says:

  • 19 Thy dead shall live, my dead bodies shall arise--awake and sing, ye that dwell in the dust--for Thy dew is as the dew of light, and the earth shall bring to life the shades. {P}
  • 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee; hide thyself for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
  • 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of His place to visit upon the inhabitants of the earth their iniquity; the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

 

I believe this one happens constantly in every generation. 

Would also have to look in my different Bible versions and commentaries to understand if it has already come to pass. As fulfilled prophecy is important to understand as well.

For a more traditional understanding without the prophetic overtones I suggest commentary by Rashi.

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15957/jewish/Chapter-26.htm#showrashi=true

Rashi is saying that this is prophetic about literal resurrection in the "World to Come", not something (do you mean metaphorical revival?) in each generation. He writes for example about verse 14 that unlike the dead who arise in Isaiah 26 v. 19:
 

Quote

 

v. 14 The dead shall not live:

May it be Your will that these wicked men shall not live in the World to Come, and that these slackers who slackened their hands from Your commandments shall not have restoration.

 

~Rashi

Here is where Rashi says verses 14 and 19 are about literal future resurrection of corpses and are two verses that go together:
 

Quote

 

verse 19: May Your dead live:

Above (v. 14) he prayed that the wicked should not live, and here he prayed that the righteous should live. I beseech You that those who were slain for Your sake come to life. May a royal edict emanate from You saying, “My corpses shall rise.” The corpses of My people who made themselves corpses for My sake, they shall be raised up. This is the opposite of what is written above (v. 14): “Slackers shall not rise.” These, however, shall rise.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/26/2017 at 5:38 PM, back to earth said:

I had to vote no due to the tack on ;  the second part of the question, which seemed very broad and undefined  ... all sorts of people  claim their predictions  will  definitely  occur ...    and constantly we see they do not . 

That could be a reason for the high no vote .... even if people agreed with the first part of your question . 

This how 'polls'  can  give skewered results  .... depending on interpretations of answers .  

 

You are not taking into consideration the problem of conditionality. The word "definitely" does not skew the results, because it addresses the problem of conditionality.

In this thread I am asking whether you believe it's most likely that the Tanakh's predictions must come true. I am not asking whether the Tanakh's predictions "will conditionally" come true. Some people say that the predictions are supposed to happen, but that human actions can divert the prophecies, and that they are only conditional.

Someone in the rabbinical community told me that the theory of two promised Messiahs in rabbinical tradition and the prophecy of Daniel 9 will or will not come to pass depending on how the Israelites act. That is not what I am asking you about. I am not asking about conditional promises.

I am asking about the Messiah's arrival and the resurrection of the dead. Do you believe A. that those two events probably will in fact / definitely / confidently occur  if they are promised in the Tanakh, or do you believe B.  "No, it's probably just a matter of "maybe it will" happen and maybe not"?

 

 

Edited by rakovsky
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What do people here think about Synchronicity?

Quote

In 1952 Jung published a paper Synchronizität als ein Prinzip akausaler Zusammenhänge (Synchronicity – An Acausal Connecting Principle)[4] in a volume which also contained a related study by the physicist and Nobel laureate Wolfgang Pauli.[5] Jung's belief was that, just as events may be connected by causality, they may also be connected by meaning. Events connected by meaning need not have an explanation in terms of causality, which does not generally contradict the Axiom of Causality.

Following discussions with both Albert Einstein and Wolfgang Pauli, Jung believed that there were parallels between synchronicity and aspects of relativity theory and quantum mechanics.[12] Jung was transfixed by the idea that life was not a series of random events but rather an expression of a deeper order, which he and Pauli referred to as Unus mundus. This deeper order led to the insights that a person was both embedded in an orderly framework and was the focus of that orderly framework and that the realisation of this was more than just an intellectual exercise, but also had elements of a spiritual awakening. From the religious perspective, synchronicity shares similar characteristics of an "intervention of grace". Jung also believed that in a person's life, synchronicity served a role similar to that of dreams, with the purpose of shifting a person's egocentric conscious thinking to greater wholeness.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronicity

 

Some researchers:

Quote

 

A Scientific Look at Synchronicity:The Search for Meaning in Coincidence

Bernard D. Beitman, M.D., is Professor and former Chairman of the Department of Psychiatry at the University of Missouri-Columbia, and the author or editor of 15 books and over 100 papers and chapters primarily about psychotherapy. He served as editor of the May 2009 Psychiatric Annals issue on “Synchronicity, Weird Coincidences and Psychotherapy.”

Paul DeBell, M.D., is a psychiatrist in private practice in New York. He has worked in mental health clinics in the poorest areas of the city for over thirty years while teaching on the faculties of most New York City medical schools. He is the author of “Decoding the Spiritual Messages of Everyday Life: How Life Shows Us What We Need to Know.”

Ginette Nachman, M.D., Ph.D., holds doctorates in medicine and clinical psychology. She has served as a Board Member and Director of Education for the Rhine Research Center, where she is a Research Associate.  She is a member of the International Association for Near Death Studies Physicians Advisory Board and is presently writing a book on Synchronicity.

Robert Perry is best known for his work with “A Course in Miracles.” He has been working with CMPEs (Conjunctions of Meaningfully Parallel Events) for over thirty years, during which time he has slowly developed a model for identifying and understanding them. He is the author of “Signs: A New Approach to Coincidence, Synchronicity, Guidance, and Life Purpose.”

http://www.nourfoundation.com/events/A-Scientific-Look-at-Synchronicity/The-Search-for-Meaning-in-Coincidence.html

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Everybody have the abelity to predict like the black cloud there would be rain, there patren in Earth and Sky, there patren around yours simple as that.

Edited by Daimond25
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/1/2017 at 2:49 AM, Daimond25 said:

Everybody have the abelity to predict like the black cloud there would be rain, there patren in Earth and Sky, there patren around yours simple as that.

Hello Daimond.

I did not understand your sentence. Please explain more.

What do you mean:

"Everybody has the ability to predict like the black cloud there would be rain".

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of the main objections to the theory of precognition or paranormal predictions is that retrocausality is impossible under the laws of science. One of the interesting facts though is that this may not necessarily be true. In the case of Quantum Entanglement, two particles are entangled, so that a change in one directly causes or correlates to a change in another, even if the particles are not directly linked. Einstein called Quantum Entanglement "spooky action at a distance" and wanted to disprove it. Here you can see an analysis of why Quantum Entanglement is correct:

https://www.scienceandnonduality.com/videos/brilliantly-simple-explanation-of-quantum-entanglement/

Quote

Essentially, quantum entanglement suggests that acting on a particle here, can instantly influence a particle far away. This is often described as theoretical teleportation.

The video above focuses on Bell's Inequality theorem.

I have also read that the reason that retrocausality has been theorized with quantum entanglement is because in one experiment, sending entangled particles on a path on after another creates a situation where the later path can affect the earlier path.

Quote

 

In 1986, Carroll Alley at the University of Maryland at College Park, found a way to test this idea using a more practical set-up: an interferometer which lets a photon take either one path or two after passing through a beam splitter. Sure enough, the photon's path depended on a choice made after the photon had to "make up its mind." Other groups have confirmed similar results, and at first blush this appears to show the present affecting the past. Most physicists, however, take the view that you can't say which path the photon took before the measurement is made. In other words, still no unambiguous evidence for retrocausality.

That's where John Cramer comes in. In the mid-1980s, working at the University of Washington in Seattle, he proposed the "transactional interpretation" of quantum mechanics, one of many attempts to relate the mathematics of quantum theory to the real world. It says particles interact by sending and receiving physical waves that travel forward and backward through time. In June, at a conference of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, Cramer proposed an experiment that can at last test for this sort of retrocausal influence. It combines the wave-particle effects of double slits with other mysterious quantum properties in an all-out effort to send signals to the past.

http://www.sfgate.com/science/article/Science-hopes-to-change-events-that-have-already-2655518.php

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/17/2017 at 9:09 AM, and then said:

After eating my first PB&J on whole wheat, I never doubted it. :) 

I like your sense of humor. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/16/2017 at 2:07 PM, Podo said:

No. Prophecies from any source have proven, throughout human history, to be so vague as to be shoe-horned into vaguely-related events after the fact. No truly verifiable prophecy (ex. at 3:22 on 22/9/2019 such-and-such will happen) has ever verifiably come to pass.

 

The issue I see is that prophecy in theory generally comes in a dreamlike or visionary state. It is not the same as a 3 minute long dejavu. And in the dreamlike state, your mind is not seeing everything exactly as if you were staring with your eyes, but rather your mind is getting messages that it interprets using symbols that represent different things, like in poetry. That makes it hard to verify things, but doesn't necessarily mean that the phenomenon doesn't exist.

Let's say that you have a hard day shoveling snow, and then that night you dream that you have been shoveling iron weights at the gym. Of course your dream cannot be verified as exactly matching your experience during the day, but I think that you would admit that there was a real relationship between your experience and your dream, and that to connect the two would not be "shoehorning" them..

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/14/2017 at 0:29 PM, Guest Nostradamus Student said:

The answer is yes.

You will find it in #8 C2-Q58 & C5-Q23: Great Anti-Christ & Cabal.

Sorry, I looked at that thread and it looked off the wall.
I appreciate that you replied to me, but I invite you to present something simpler and more reasonable.

 

 

Edited by rakovsky
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, rakovsky said:

 

The issue I see is that prophecy in theory generally comes in a dreamlike or visionary state. It is not the same as a 3 minute long dejavu. And in the dreamlike state, your mind is not seeing everything exactly as if you were staring with your eyes, but rather your mind is getting messages that it interprets using symbols that represent different things, like in poetry. That makes it hard to verify things, but doesn't necessarily mean that the phenomenon doesn't exist.

Let's say that you have a hard day shoveling snow, and then that night you dream that you have been shoveling iron weights at the gym. Of course your dream cannot be verified as exactly matching your experience during the day, but I think that you would admit that there was a real relationship between your experience and your dream, and that to connect the two would not be "shoehorning" them..

 

Yeah, but therein lies my issue. "Prophecy" is always in some kind of dreamlike state. Convenient, isn't it? Tricksters, snake-oil salesmen, and idiots have been peddling prophecy and fortune telling for thousands of years, always with the excuse that it is "vague" and "dreamlike." I'll believe a prophecy the moment it can be verified. Barring that, it's all just shoehorns for days.


I think that experiences and dreams are entirely related. But dreams are regarding the past, things that have already happened. There is no solid evidence indicating that they have anything to do with future things, since looking into the future is impossible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, Podo said:
Quote

No truly verifiable prophecy (ex. at 3:22 on 22/9/2019 such-and-such will happen) has ever verifiably come to pass.



Yeah, but therein lies my issue. "Prophecy" is always in some kind of dreamlike state. Convenient, isn't it? Tricksters, snake-oil salesmen, and idiots have been peddling prophecy and fortune telling for thousands of years, always with the excuse that it is "vague" and "dreamlike." I'll believe a prophecy the moment it can be verified. Barring that, it's all just shoehorns for days.


I think that experiences and dreams are entirely related. But dreams are regarding the past, things that have already happened. There is no solid evidence indicating that they have anything to do with future things, since looking into the future is impossible.

The purple statement by you is meaningless, because you said that "looking into the future is 'impossible'" and because foresight is dreamlike. No verification in practice can therefore be enough.

Let's say that a man tells you that he dreamt that a jar of water falls on the floor and then he looks at his clock and it says 3:22. Later that day, the same thing occurs with you in the room. Due to your belief that this is impossible, you will consider it: (A) coincidence, (B) something he intentionally arranged, (C) other kind of event for which there is a non-retrocausal explanation.

 

Quote

 

Yes, we do have a sixth sense: The in-depth study of our intriguing dreams that convinced one doctor

 

Dossey recounts the tale of a mother living in Washington State who awoke at 2.30am from a nightmare. She had dreamt that a large chandelier that hung above her baby's crib had fallen and crushed him. In the dream, a violent storm was raging and the time on the clock read 4.35am.

Alarmed, the woman woke up, went into the next room and took the baby back to her bed. Two hours later, the couple were woken by a loud crash. They dashed into their child's room to find the crib demolished by the chandelier, which had fallen directly onto it.

In a further twist, a storm was raging - and the time on the clock read 4.35am.

 

Quote

 

 

Another example from a childhood friend of mine was that one night she dreamed of her grandfather and she woke up and looked at her clock and remembered the time. And was informed that at exactly that time her grandfather had passed away.

http://www.realmeaningofdreams.com/premonition-dreams.html

The famous psychologist Carl Jung related

Quote

I dreamed that my wife's bed was a deep pit with stone walls. It was a grave.... I heard a deep sigh, as if someone was giving up the ghost. A figure that resembled my wife sat up in the pit and floated upwards. ...I awoke, roused my wife, and checked the time. It was three oclock in the morning. ... At seven oclock came the news that a cousin of my wife had died at three oclock in the morning.
https://books.google.com/books?id=usrGSaO7QosC&pg=RA1-PA146&lpg=RA1-PA146&dq=dreamed+clock+time+premonition&source=bl&ots=zCdVegJ_H9&sig=z7HcpMajI--myz91YIa0frbdqqI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiM-MvYuIvTAhVFMGMKHVdsAUoQ6AEISTAH#v=onepage&q=dreamed clock time premonition&f=false



I am sure that stories like those above and the doctor's study will be rejected by you as anecdotal, coincidence, or otherwise unverified, because you have stated dream predictions are impossible. The reason you said that this was impossible was because of your understanding of the principle of causality.

As a result, I invite you to read Message #19 where I talked about 1. Noncausality in Quantum Entanglement and 2. Retrocausality in Quantum Entanglement. Based on our normal understanding of physics and how the universe works, both of them should be impossible. If they are however, then our understanding of what is causally possible and impossible in the universe is not necessarily always the case.

 

 

 

Edited by rakovsky
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, rakovsky said:

The purple statement by you is meaningless, because you said that "looking into the future is 'impossible'" and because foresight is dreamlike. No verification in practice can therefore be enough.

Untrue. As I've said, if someone was able to predict something very specific that came to pass, I'd give it credibility. Per my original post though, all "prophecy" has been vague, similar to cold-reading. That isn't good enough.

 

2 hours ago, rakovsky said:

Let's say that a man tells you that he dreamt that a jar of water falls on the floor and then he looks at his clock and it says 3:22. Later that day, the same thing occurs with you in the room. Due to your belief that this is impossible, you will consider it: (A) coincidence, (B) something he intentionally arranged, (C) other kind of event for which there is a non-retrocausal explanation.

False. If that actually happened, I'd explore it and talk with him about it. It doesn't mean that I'm going to throw up my hands and declare that prophecy is real, but I'll consider it. IF my bddy told me about it beforehand, anyway. It is really easy to have something happen and then gasp OMG I DREAMED THIS. If the thing was declared ahead of time, you bet your butt that'd make me pause. But it hasn't, and I doubt it will. I'm fine to be wrong about that, though. Introduce me to someone who can do such things.

 

2 hours ago, rakovsky said:

I am sure that stories like those above and the doctor's study will be rejected by you as anecdotal, coincidence, or otherwise unverified, because you have stated dream predictions are impossible. The reason you said that this was impossible was because of your understanding of the principle of causality.

As a result, I invite you to read Message #19 where I talked about 1. Noncausality in Quantum Entanglement and 2. Retrocausality in Quantum Entanglement. Based on our normal understanding of physics and how the universe works, both of them should be impossible. If they are however, then our understanding of what is causally possible and impossible in the universe is not necessarily always the case.

Yes, that is entirely unverified. It's interesting, but the only way to truly verify a prophecy is to announce the parameters ahead of time, and then have them come to pass.

 

My argument isn't necessarily that it definitely isn't possible. I don't think it is, but that's not really the point. It's more that there is no evidence pointing to it being possible, at the moment. Even if it IS possible (for argument's sake), there is still no good evidence on the contrary, thus making assuming that it is possible an illogical conclusion. I'm perfectly willing for that to change, but I suspect that if it was doable, someone would have done so by now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.