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Jor-el

The Reason for Religion

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Lately I've been thinking a lot about the underlying reasons as to why people believe in their religion, what motivates them besides the message they have taken to heart. One of the things that I have found is that religion, no matter what it is seems to have a common thread in peoples motivations, something that they can all relate to, even if they can't relate to the other religions beside their own.

The conclusion I have come to is that no matter what religion one belongs to, it is a decision to become involved and actively take a side in a war. Not a war against other people, although many times it comes down to that as well, although that is an unintended consequence, not because of those people believing differently from themselves.

The war is actually quite old, as old as intelligence itself, it is a war against entropy.

Let's look at this carefully. Entropy is the movement of a system toward a lower energy state, it is also the reason for death, it is the reason why democracies will end in dictatorships and laws that are fair eventually seem to be abandoned as too restrictive. It is why morality degrades over time. It is the reasons why old orders pass away and new orders whether they be political, social or even moral have to periodically be reinstituted, the old done away with as corrupt.

So why is religion important to this issue? Because religion alone fights entropy. We take in hand the theme of being creators, in the image of the creator, and we bring to life, we decrease entropy, not only by our beliefs and actions but because we know that entropy is the single cause of human suffering.

 

What say you?

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If you consider the darkness of the human psyche/spirit as entropy, then yeah, I can get on board with your explanation.  I'm not a Dan Brown fan but a line from one of his books/movies has always seemed eloquent to me.  A catholic priest at the Vatican was interviewing a scholar who wanted access to the archives.  The priest asked if he believed in God.  He began answering the question referring to religion and the priest interrupted him and said "I didn't ask you what man says about God, I asked you if believed in God".

Starts at 40 secs.

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Entropy can be decreased, but only by expending energy. Expending that energy in one place, however, must increase entropy somewhere else.

Pretty bleak. Can't win. Can't break even. Can't quit.

That could drive somebody to drink. Or to religion.

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1 hour ago, Jor-el said:

Lately I've been thinking a lot about the underlying reasons as to why people believe in their religion, what motivates them besides the message they have taken to heart. One of the things that I have found is that religion, no matter what it is seems to have a common thread in peoples motivations, something that they can all relate to, even if they can't relate to the other religions beside their own.

The conclusion I have come to is that no matter what religion one belongs to, it is a decision to become involved and actively take a side in a war. Not a war against other people, although many times it comes down to that as well, although that is an unintended consequence, not because of those people believing differently from themselves.

The war is actually quite old, as old as intelligence itself, it is a war against entropy.

Let's look at this carefully. Entropy is the movement of a system toward a lower energy state, it is also the reason for death, it is the reason why democracies will end in dictatorships and laws that are fair eventually seem to be abandoned as too restrictive. It is why morality degrades over time. It is the reasons why old orders pass away and new orders whether they be political, social or even moral have to periodically be reinstituted, the old done away with as corrupt.

So why is religion important to this issue? Because religion alone fights entropy. We take in hand the theme of being creators, in the image of the creator, and we bring to life, we decrease entropy, not only by our beliefs and actions but because we know that entropy is the single cause of human suffering.

What say you?

Those who are religious and those who are spiritual (i.e. not aligned to an orthodox religion) have in common the belief in the soul/spirit that survives death.  So what you say here strikes me as a bit contrived/false, i.e. that you think religion came about to combat death!  It is more that there is an understanding/belief that death is just the death of our physical body and that we are comprised of mind, body and spirit.

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Jor-el said:

Lately I've been thinking a lot about the underlying reasons as to why people believe in their religion, what motivates them besides the message they have taken to heart. One of the things that I have found is that religion, no matter what it is seems to have a common thread in peoples motivations, something that they can all relate to, even if they can't relate to the other religions beside their own.

The conclusion I have come to is that no matter what religion one belongs to, it is a decision to become involved and actively take a side in a war. Not a war against other people, although many times it comes down to that as well, although that is an unintended consequence, not because of those people believing differently from themselves.

The war is actually quite old, as old as intelligence itself, it is a war against entropy.

Let's look at this carefully. Entropy is the movement of a system toward a lower energy state, it is also the reason for death, it is the reason why democracies will end in dictatorships and laws that are fair eventually seem to be abandoned as too restrictive. It is why morality degrades over time. It is the reasons why old orders pass away and new orders whether they be political, social or even moral have to periodically be reinstituted, the old done away with as corrupt.

So why is religion important to this issue? Because religion alone fights entropy. We take in hand the theme of being creators, in the image of the creator, and we bring to life, we decrease entropy, not only by our beliefs and actions but because we know that entropy is the single cause of human suffering.

 

What say you?

v_for_vendetta_posters_by_epsilontlosdar

Edited by Mystic Crusader

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1 hour ago, eight bits said:

Entropy can be decreased, but only by expending energy. Expending that energy in one place, however, must increase entropy somewhere else.

Pretty bleak. Can't win. Can't break even. Can't quit.

That could drive somebody to drink. Or to religion.

Utilizing the energy already expended decreases entropy, one does not have to take it from somewhere as it is everywhere around us, even in a vacuum.

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1 hour ago, sees said:

Those who are religious and those who are spiritual (i.e. not aligned to an orthodox religion) have in common the belief in the soul/spirit that survives death.  So what you say here strikes me as a bit contrived/false, i.e. that you think religion came about to combat death!  It is more that there is an understanding/belief that death is just the death of our physical body and that we are comprised of mind, body and spirit.

Actually that is what I am saying, religion in all its forms exists to combat death, disorder. The promise of life after death is not one that is abstract and spiritual, the meaning of those words as I understand it is regarding a literal and physical life without death.

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48 minutes ago, Mystic Crusader said:

v_for_vendetta_posters_by_epsilontlosdar

And which of these aid entropy?

 

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1 minute ago, Jor-el said:

And which of these aid entropy?

 

Watch the movie V for Vendetta, you'll get a better understanding.

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3 hours ago, Jor-el said:

So why is religion important to this issue? Because religion alone fights entropy. We take in hand the theme of being creators, in the image of the creator, and we bring to life, we decrease entropy, not only by our beliefs and actions but because we know that entropy is the single cause of human suffering.

We take in hand the theme of being creators,  I think that is the essence of your argument.  Every time we build a bridge, plant a crop, plow a field or sweep a floor we are working toward order.  Religion does not need to be involved in these activities unless the dominant culture that shapes your life connects them.  For some peoples, going back to the earth is part of a perceived cycle.  Order and disorder are at ends of a continuum, they are not at war or independent of one another.

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Posted (edited)

35 minutes ago, Jor-el said:

Actually that is what I am saying, religion in all its forms exists to combat death, disorder. The promise of life after death is not one that is abstract and spiritual, the meaning of those words as I understand it is regarding a literal and physical life without death.

Yes I know you are saying this but it reads as though you say religion was created i.e. devised in order to combat death.  My point is that it is not an artificial, mental construct to challenge nature's reality but springs from a deeper knowledge/understanding of what being human comprises of, i.e. mind, body and spirit.  Do you see the difference here?

I think you have misunderstood religion.  You say a 'physical life without death' which is not what religion/spirituality supports, i.e. the soul/spirit that survives death is not physical! 

Edited by sees
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Order originates from disorder. We couldn' have order if there were no disorder. It's like sound comes from silence and light comes from darkness. If there were no silence, there would be a constant buzz, if there were no darkness, everything would be blindingly bright, we wouldn't be able to distinguish anything,

In this sense, entropy, disorder, is essential for order to occur. Religion requires or creates order out of this chaos. The OP may be right in the way of saying entropy o(disorder of the mind and body) is the single cause of human suffering. Evil is disorder of the mind, the religious good is order of the mind.

Though of course, order is always temporary, entropy always wins in the end.

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Jor-el said:

Lately I've been thinking a lot about the underlying reasons as to why people believe in their religion, what motivates them besides the message they have taken to heart. One of the things that I have found is that religion, no matter what it is seems to have a common thread in peoples motivations, something that they can all relate to, even if they can't relate to the other religions beside their own.

The conclusion I have come to is that no matter what religion one belongs to, it is a decision to become involved and actively take a side in a war. Not a war against other people, although many times it comes down to that as well, although that is an unintended consequence, not because of those people believing differently from themselves.

The war is actually quite old, as old as intelligence itself, it is a war against entropy.

Let's look at this carefully. Entropy is the movement of a system toward a lower energy state, it is also the reason for death, it is the reason why democracies will end in dictatorships and laws that are fair eventually seem to be abandoned as too restrictive. It is why morality degrades over time. It is the reasons why old orders pass away and new orders whether they be political, social or even moral have to periodically be reinstituted, the old done away with as corrupt.

So why is religion important to this issue? Because religion alone fights entropy. We take in hand the theme of being creators, in the image of the creator, and we bring to life, we decrease entropy, not only by our beliefs and actions but because we know that entropy is the single cause of human suffering.

 

What say you?

I says it is very restrictive to look for a single cause ... there are many dynamics in play that  'make'  religion . 

Also I dont think the effect of destroying entropy with religion has been demonstrated  ...   your  last paragraph seems vague and suggestive, but not really explained . 

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3 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

We take in hand the theme of being creators,  I think that is the essence of your argument.  Every time we build a bridge, plant a crop, plow a field or sweep a floor we are working toward order.  Religion does not need to be involved in these activities unless the dominant culture that shapes your life connects them.  For some peoples, going back to the earth is part of a perceived cycle.  Order and disorder are at ends of a continuum, they are not at war or independent of one another.

Yup !   ;)  

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8 hours ago, Jor-el said:

Lately I've been thinking a lot about the underlying reasons as to why people believe in their religion, what motivates them besides the message they have taken to heart. One of the things that I have found is that religion, no matter what it is seems to have a common thread in peoples motivations, something that they can all relate to, even if they can't relate to the other religions beside their own.

The conclusion I have come to is that no matter what religion one belongs to, it is a decision to become involved and actively take a side in a war. Not a war against other people, although many times it comes down to that as well, although that is an unintended consequence, not because of those people believing differently from themselves.

The war is actually quite old, as old as intelligence itself, it is a war against entropy.

Let's look at this carefully. Entropy is the movement of a system toward a lower energy state, it is also the reason for death, it is the reason why democracies will end in dictatorships and laws that are fair eventually seem to be abandoned as too restrictive. It is why morality degrades over time. It is the reasons why old orders pass away and new orders whether they be political, social or even moral have to periodically be reinstituted, the old done away with as corrupt.

So why is religion important to this issue? Because religion alone fights entropy. We take in hand the theme of being creators, in the image of the creator, and we bring to life, we decrease entropy, not only by our beliefs and actions but because we know that entropy is the single cause of human suffering.

 

What say you?

A primary reason for religion is to teach morality.  That is what I find most convenient about it, i.e. persons with religious backgrounds needn't explain to everyone their belief system in order to be held to their standards.  The latter part is useful for reaching quicker 'understandings' even (or, I might say, especially) with hypocrites.

5 hours ago, sees said:

Yes I know you are saying this but it reads as though you say religion was created i.e. devised in order to combat death.  My point is that it is not an artificial, mental construct to challenge nature's reality but springs from a deeper knowledge/understanding of what being human comprises of, i.e. mind, body and spirit.  Do you see the difference here?

I think you have misunderstood religion.  You say a 'physical life without death' which is not what religion/spirituality supports, i.e. the soul/spirit that survives death is not physical! 

It is common for Christians to believe they'll be reunited with their resurrected bodies-- their new and improved, immortal, bodies, which I like to think of as being ethereal.

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5 minutes ago, aka CAT said:

A primary reason for religion is to teach morality.  That is what I find most convenient about it, i.e. persons with religious backgrounds needn't explain to everyone their belief system in order to be held to their standards.  The latter part is useful for reaching quicker 'understandings' even (or, I might say, especially) with hypocrites.

It is common for Christians to believe they'll be reunited with their resurrected bodies-- their new and improved, immortal, bodies, which I like to think of as being ethereal.

Oh I see...I didn't know that. I stand corrected then.  I am spiritual and not religious.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, sees said:

Oh I see...I didn't know that. I stand corrected then.  I am spiritual and not religious.

Less and less dogmatic, for mixed reasons, I think a means of harmlessly interacting with creation appealing.  

After all, my idea of heaven includes exploration of the cosmos... and whatever else might pleasantly fill an eternity,

which I perceive a spiral.  That way, one's momently ascending along points tangent can only be viewed a continual

advancement as opposed any ongoing vicious cycle. 

Edited by aka CAT

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Posted (edited)

Ie2uP.gif

Edited by davros of skaro
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22 hours ago, davros of skaro said:

Ie2uP.gif

Life is about chasing carrots.  

If I cease to be once I'm dead, I don't care.

However, I like my model of the afterlife,

because it applies to both those whom believe in karma

and Christians, e.g. 

good karma = upward spiral

bad karma = downward spiral

good Christian = straight to heaven.

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On ‎18‎-‎02‎-‎2017 at 6:28 PM, Mystic Crusader said:

Watch the movie V for Vendetta, you'll get a better understanding.

I watched and I agree, there is a lot to be said for standing up against oppression, it is also the ultimate fight against entropy.

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On ‎18‎-‎02‎-‎2017 at 6:37 PM, Tatetopa said:

We take in hand the theme of being creators,  I think that is the essence of your argument.  Every time we build a bridge, plant a crop, plow a field or sweep a floor we are working toward order.  Religion does not need to be involved in these activities unless the dominant culture that shapes your life connects them.  For some peoples, going back to the earth is part of a perceived cycle.  Order and disorder are at ends of a continuum, they are not at war or independent of one another.

Order and disorder are not unrelated, that is true, but my question is how many of us, tend to aid one or the other? Order doesn't mean compliance or acceptance of the status quo.

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On ‎18‎-‎02‎-‎2017 at 6:59 PM, sees said:

Yes I know you are saying this but it reads as though you say religion was created i.e. devised in order to combat death.  My point is that it is not an artificial, mental construct to challenge nature's reality but springs from a deeper knowledge/understanding of what being human comprises of, i.e. mind, body and spirit.  Do you see the difference here?

I think you have misunderstood religion.  You say a 'physical life without death' which is not what religion/spirituality supports, i.e. the soul/spirit that survives death is not physical! 

Actually the promise given to Christians is exactly a physical body the is not subject to entropy. It is called the resurrection.

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Just now, Jor-el said:

Actually the promise given to Christians is exactly a physical body the is not subject to entropy. It is called the resurrection.

Yes I learnt this in my post above # 16

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On ‎18‎-‎02‎-‎2017 at 9:48 PM, back to earth said:

I says it is very restrictive to look for a single cause ... there are many dynamics in play that  'make'  religion . 

Also I dont think the effect of destroying entropy with religion has been demonstrated  ...   your  last paragraph seems vague and suggestive, but not really explained . 

Well let me put it this way, religion essentially encapsulates the concept of doing good, of striving to always take a positive out of a negative. Like Jesus saying that we must turn the other cheek, no matter how many times we are slapped in the face.... what is essentially being taught by religion, is to create a positive out of a negative, thus combating entropy and essentially reversing it.

 

Every positive action fights entropy, while negative reactions accelerate it.

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5 minutes ago, sees said:

Yes I learnt this in my post above # 16

Why yes you did, my apologies....

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