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jimrich

Non-duality Advaita

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Who am i?  what am i?  Is non-duality real?  Who/what are you?  Is there anything other than empty phenomena?  Are you Enlightened?  What is "awakening"?  Are you awakened?  Is there a separate self?  What is the ego?  If there is only Consciousness, what is all this "stuff" in the universe?   I am That.   so  what?  There is only the Self ~ Ramana Maharshi    I actually love all of this non-dual, Advaita stuff and could read about it all day long.   It's amazing how it ticks people off and enrages so many egos.  I find it to be the best and perhaps only reasonable way to explain life and living but it sure burns up a lot of egoic folks.  Well, no wonder.  Non-duality says that you don't even exist!   LOL, well of course you exist - your false, temporary egoic self does not and never did exist!  Man, that really p***es folks off!  LOL the ego will always take things personally!  Oh well......... I'd love to see what others think of or know about non-duality and Unity or Oneness.   thanks............

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On this subject I'm reminded of the poem, "Brahma" by Emerson.

"They reckon ill who leave me out;
When me they fly, I am the wings;
I am the doubter and the doubt, ..."
The ego of self is an illusion the brain creates for itself. This reality does tick people off. In Zen also if you investigate your mind/consciousness deeper and deeper, you ultimately discover fundamentally there is nothing left except emptiness. There is no 'self' or ego existent to grasp. This is non-duality of the One. There is no 'you' separate from all existence.
 
J. Krishnamurti talks about the separation of the objective and subjective. When subjective and objective become one, what happens? This consciousness we invent many names for,, but it is an untranslatable experience. A revelation, and what a release and relief! :)  not to carry around the burden of self! 
 
 
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I think it's just one of countless unverifiable theories about the universe that cannot be proven or tested, and therefore is fine if you choose to believe it but useless if you need proof to accept something.

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Is it a theory about the Universe ?  Maybe the Pre-Universe .  

Singularity exists for less than a moment .    Then duality comes into being as an 'ideal' -  but really, instantaneously , it 'explodes' into a 'myriad things ' .  That is the Universe .

However ,  ' non duality '   is a concept, a mode of consciousness .....    does the coin have yin on one side and yang on the other .... or is just a single coin ?  Point of view .    Opposites ... or  pairs ? 

Interesting subject as a poster here ... that sees  just about anything as 'paranormal' claims knowledge in Advaita , yet refuses to discuss it , maybe he will join in later ? 

The interesting thing, for me ,  is, the above outlook re the 'universe' is  my  current cosmological  musings  .... or if one prefers ; meditations .    Yet, on a more down to earth practical level , I have been exploring  and practicing a bit Australian Indigenous shamanism  ......   very 'non-dual' . 

There are all sorts of dualism  ;   the divide between  the 'real ' and the 'ideal' was a big one that changed human consciousness in the west between 1400 - 1600 !   We still got a foot in both camps  consciousnesses  ... hence  - sites like this one . 

Yes , I like to discuss Advaita  etc . more ... just got a power warning though ... battery low , not much sun today ...  

gotta shutdown . 

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On 2/21/2017 at 9:22 AM, jimrich said:

There is only the Self ~ Ramana Maharshi

Awakening is out of fashion. It was trendy at the turn of the century. You knew it's over when Jim Carey jumped onto the band wagon.

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Posted (edited)

35 minutes ago, intoyoulikeatrain said:

Awakening is out of fashion. It was trendy at the turn of the century. You knew it's over when Jim Carey jumped onto the band wagon.

As some kind of popular social movement, I would agree. Awakening or direct experience or whatever you want to call it is a personal matter, its meaning often corrupted by misinformation and misunderstanding, cluttered by distracting ideas and concepts.

Awakening to what? I think this question must first be deeply looked into on a personal level first without self-deception or being deceived by others. Seeking self-truth is a one person job.

Edited by StarMountainKid
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On 2/21/2017 at 9:55 AM, StarMountainKid said:

 

Quote

The ego of self is an illusion the brain creates for itself.

LOL, I don''t see the brain doing much of anything on its own.  It's just a piece of flesh as far as I now.  I created my ego illusion - just don't ask me how.

Quote

This reality does tick people off

. Yes, people are pretty certain that they are just egos inhabiting a body and feel threatened by any suggestion that the ego is NOT REAL.

Quote

In Zen also if you investigate your mind/consciousness deeper and deeper, you ultimately discover fundamentally there is nothing left except emptiness.

Which is also you - just not a "something".

Quote

There is no 'self' or ego existent to grasp. This is non-duality of the One. There is no 'you' separate from all existence.

There is a me here - just not one that I can describe in conventional language.  I suspect this is getting into the Semantics Jungle.
Quote

J. Krishnamurti talks about the separation of the objective and subjective. When subjective and objective become one, what happens?

I can't say what "happens" for J. K. but, for me, nothing happens - this just is!  Oh, and it FEELS great!

Quote

This consciousness we invent many names for,, but it is an untranslatable experience. A revelation, and what a release and relief! :)  not to carry around the burden of self! 

It's a good thing that there is no such thing other than in the imagination..  I like what you wrote so thanks for your input here,

jim ;)

 
 

 

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On 2/24/2017 at 1:39 PM, intoyoulikeatrain said:

Awakening is out of fashion. It was trendy at the turn of the century. You knew it's over when Jim Carey jumped onto the band wagon.

LOL, yes the new guys and gals make the point that there is only awakening here and now so no need to go searching, waiting, or even hoping - awakening simply is.  This is it ~ Tony Parsons.   It's just what is happening ~ Jim Newman.  IMO, most of them are saying what Ramana said and many others even before him.   ...You are That.

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On ‎21‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 9:22 AM, jimrich said:

Who am i?  what am i?  Is non-duality real?  Who/what are you?  Is there anything other than empty phenomena?  Are you Enlightened?  What is "awakening"?  Are you awakened?  Is there a separate self?  What is the ego?  If there is only Consciousness, what is all this "stuff" in the universe?   I am That.   so  what?  There is only the Self ~ Ramana Maharshi    I actually love all of this non-dual, Advaita stuff and could read about it all day long.   It's amazing how it ticks people off and enrages so many egos.  I find it to be the best and perhaps only reasonable way to explain life and living but it sure burns up a lot of egoic folks.  Well, no wonder.  Non-duality says that you don't even exist!   LOL, well of course you exist - your false, temporary egoic self does not and never did exist!  Man, that really p***es folks off!  LOL the ego will always take things personally!  Oh well......... I'd love to see what others think of or know about non-duality and Unity or Oneness.   thanks............

Most scientists give the big bang primacy where it creates space, matter and energy. Then over billions of years the matter and energy combine in the right way to produce us. Many quantum physicists, and religions, give the mind primacy where it brings into existence the universe. Christianity and Islam do too but call that mind God.

So initially there is a non-duality mind and that is all there is because it is everything as oneness. Then it has a thought:

1. You cannot have oneness with a thought because it takes an 'I' to have a thought. So by having a thought the 'I' is brought into existence out of the state of the unity and this is relative to every other 'I's' not having the thought. So unity decentralises into your mind fragment and that is relative to a vast number of other mind fragments.

2. A thought cannot exist without a point in time that it exists at. A point in time also defines the past (before the thought) and future (after the thought). And a sequence of thoughts defines a flow of time in one direction. So now not only do you have your mind fragment, and other mind fragments, there is time and the flow of time for each.

3. Something cannot exist without a location to exist at and this is relative to all the other locations where it doesnt exist at. This is true of thoughts too. A thought cannot exist without a location relative to other locations where it is not at. Hence a thought has created not only created the 'I', the other versions of 'I', and time, but space too.

4. For something to exist it needs to be made out of something. Therefore a thought creates matter. Matter is brought into existence at the location in space and time where the thought exists so that it can exist. Now we have space, time and matter (and some kind of physical entity I call pre-brain or pre-body'

Going on from there how can the pre-brain or pre-body exist and continue to exist during a flow of time unless it has the ability to keep itself going? Hence you end up with a life form. Bit by bit the thoughts and types of thoughts we have define and create the universe that exists in relation to them and bring into existence our form as human beings.

During the flow of time and universe we have created we get negative experiences which make us suffer. The end goal of suffering is the letting go of all thoughts to reverse the collapse of unity back into oneness. The ego acts to prevent this by grounding us in our experience.

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2 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

4. For something to exist it needs to be made out of something. Therefore a thought creates matter. Matter is brought into existence at the location in space and time where the thought exists so that it can exist. Now we have space, time and matter (and some kind of physical entity I call pre-brain or pre-body'

I like everything you say except for the above quote. I would say instead, matter creates thought. The physical brain creates mind, mind creates thought, mind inserts thought into consciousness, conscious thinking. Thoughts originate in the pre-conscious mind.

The conscious mind is like a mirror reflecting the pre-conscious mind. Consciousness is the pre-conscious mind being aware of itself.

As far as thinking verbally in consciousness, one can think without this conscious verbalization. We actually need verbalized thinking only rarely when necessary. We can sort of put ourselves on 'automatic pilot', trusting to the pre-conscious, and live the day productively with little conscious thought. This experience is closer to one-ness or non-duality, as conscious thinking often gets in our way, distracting us from our true selves.

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Posted (edited)

37 minutes ago, StarMountainKid said:

I like everything you say except for the above quote. I would say instead, matter creates thought. The physical brain creates mind, mind creates thought, mind inserts thought into consciousness, conscious thinking. Thoughts originate in the pre-conscious mind.

The conscious mind is like a mirror reflecting the pre-conscious mind. Consciousness is the pre-conscious mind being aware of itself.

As far as thinking verbally in consciousness, one can think without this conscious verbalization. We actually need verbalized thinking only rarely when necessary. We can sort of put ourselves on 'automatic pilot', trusting to the pre-conscious, and live the day productively with little conscious thought. This experience is closer to one-ness or non-duality, as conscious thinking often gets in our way, distracting us from our true selves.

If everything that exists needs to be made of something too exist then... a thought needs to be made of something.

So I'm working from thought(s) bringing into existence the matter they need to exist. And a load of that matter comes into existence at the location in time and space that the thought occupies. The brain. Which in turn brings into existence the life form it inhabits. etc.

And of course there are other 'I's' out there.

Edited by RabidMongoose

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7 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

If everything that exists needs to be made of something too exist then... a thought needs to be made of something.

So I'm working from thought(s) bringing into existence the matter they need to exist. And a load of that matter comes into existence at the location in time and space that the thought occupies. The brain. Which in turn brings into existence the life form it inhabits. etc.

And of course there are other 'I's' out there.

Interesting. Though in my view, a thought is the firing of a neural network in the brain. This is the thought's location in space and time.

I think we err when we think of a thought as an entity that exists in consciousness separate from a neural network. Consciousness is not an entity separate from physical brain function. We may consider consciousness some ethereal entity floating around somewhere as some mysterious object, as we cannot locate it physically except as an experience.

However, we are our brain, and everything mental happens within our brain. Consciousness is mistakenly considered 'outside' of the brain in a sense, as we are not aware of our own neural network's activity. We can't feel our brain working, so we think our mental activity is not connected to brain activity. 

This causes the illusion of consciousness floating around somewhere separate from the body..

 

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JIM   .....   what do you think of  Advaya Non - Duality    idea  ?  

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Posted (edited)

22 hours ago, back to earth said:

JIM   .....   what do you think of  Advaya Non - Duality    idea  ?  

It's tricky stuff because the "knowing" of it is apparently beyond "thinking" or mental conceptions so all I can say for now is, this is it - and it's accepted.  This just is.  I am.  There is only this.  Even trying to sum nonduality up n words seems nearly impossible - for now, anyway. Hmmmmm, how about _______________. 

Edited by jimrich

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I thought Lao Tsu's  'negative descriptions' did a rather good job .  

But on the Advaya / Advaita  ' conundrum ;  I would like to know the difference between a non dual view that all is spiritual and the material is an 'illusion'  and  the view that  all is material and the spiritual is an 'illusion'    ( and its interesting that non duality has dual thought stream  going  ; the Vedic and the  Buddhist   :)    )    as ,    a practice I have been doing sees both ;  the material is the spiritual with no distinctions  . 

YET   .... one of the central tenets  of Mahayana Buddhist philosophy (  origin of Advaya )  is  'two truths'   (  'conventional' and 'ultimate' )  ;   apparently     ..... even  ' truth '     can  be dual   ;)    .

The system I am involved with   uses 3 levels of truth ......     since it is a very ancient system , still extant  anthropologists study it  and have termed them;

The  Rear     -    The Really Real     -   and The  Really Really Real   .       -  serious  !  

 

Suits me  .... I like things   ' in threes '  .     

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Posted (edited)

49 minutes ago, jimrich said:

It's tricky stuff because the "knowing" of it is apparently beyond "thinking" or mental conceptions so all I can say for now is, this is it - and it's accepted.  This just is.  I am.  There is only this.  Even trying to sum nonduality up n words seems nearly impossible - for now, anyway. Hmmmmm, how about _______________. 

 Actually ....   thats a good concept,     if  we start with   non-existence we get

   -     0

 

and then of course , singularity ( non- dual) would be  ( for our purposes here )   

.     -  1   

Now, when the point moves we get     .................       or , actually  

  ________________________              -    2

the line , the points extension in  two dimensions , now, that may see dual as we have a  dual potential  ( opposite directions )   BUT  since the line (theoretically extends to infinity -  then no )    we need 'ends' to those lines, then we are defining a concept of space , which is 3D (on our level)   so  

Related image    -    3    

But this is still   'in the ideal world '    that is , really  the whole thing is 2 D - on the computer screen -  , to go further we have to come out of the screen , and create 'depth '

Related image  

(Well, thats as good as it gets  ..... here )  but that 'step' brings the  3 part 'ideal' into 'hard reality' .

... so, as I said before, its an interesting philosophical point ( dualism )   but  seems IMO removed from 'practicality' ..... indeed, the only ' real ' answer (on Advaita )  may well be ; 

 

______________________________             

 

 

Edited by back to earth
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                                                                       BUDDHISM

 

                                           A question asked of the Zen Master Huang Po (?-849)

Q:  What Dharma do all the Buddhas teach when they manifest themselves in the world?

 

A:  When all the Buddhas manifest themselves in the world, they proclaim nothing but the One Mind.  Thus Gautama Buddha silently transmitted the doctrine that the One Mind, which is the substance of all things and fills the entire world of phenomena.  Discuss it as you may, how can you even hope to approach the truth through words?  Nor can it be perceived either subjectively or objectively.  So, full understanding can come to you only through an inexpressible mystery.  The approach to it is called the Gateway of the Stillness beyond all Activity.  If you wish to understand, know that a sudden comprehension comes when the mind has been purged of all the clutter of conceptual and discriminatory thought-activity.  Those who seek the truth by means of intellect and learning only get further and further away from it. 

     Not till your thoughts cease all their branching here and there, not till you abandon all thoughts of seeking for something, not till your mind is motionless as wood or stone, will you be on the right road to the Gate.

 

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7 minutes ago, StarMountainKid said:

                                                                       BUDDHISM

 

 

 

                                           A question asked of the Zen Master Huang Po (?-849)

 

 

 

 

 

Q:  What Dharma do all the Buddhas teach when they manifest themselves in the world?

 

 

 

A:  When all the Buddhas manifest themselves in the world, they proclaim nothing but the One Mind.  Thus Gautama Buddha silently transmitted the doctrine that the One Mind, which is the substance of all things and fills the entire world of phenomena.  Discuss it as you may, how can you even hope to approach the truth through words?  Nor can it be perceived either subjectively or objectively.  So, full understanding can come to you only through an inexpressible mystery.  The approach to it is called the Gateway of the Stillness beyond all Activity.  If you wish to understand, know that a sudden comprehension comes when the mind has been purged of all the clutter of conceptual and discriminatory thought-activity.  Those who seek the truth by means of intellect and learning only get further and further away from it. 

BUT ....  Master Po,   intellect and learning  ( Gnani Yoga )  is one of the 3 main methods to attain  liberation .

     Not till your thoughts cease all their branching here and there, not till you abandon all thoughts of seeking for something, not till your mind is motionless as wood or stone, will you be on the right road to the Gate.

Oh ....  ' qualifiers '    - it seems intellect and learning can be a path  IF   thoughts are focused  (not branching here and there ) ,

if they are non attached to reasons  ( seeking for something )     and with a stable mind  ( motionless )   ..... then intellect and learning would be a valid path . 

These are all, of course, prerequisites  to the path of Gnana Yoga  .

 

I. Since truth is supra-rational, it is incommunicable in the language of reason.

II. Hence all mystics have written nonsense, and what sense they have written is so far untrue.

III. Yet as a still lake yields a truer reflection of the sun than a torrent, he whose mind is best balanced will, if he become a mystic, become the best mystic.

;) 

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Mooji is one of the very few I listen to seriously, and I have to really listen and comprehend thoroughly and bring deeply into myself.

 

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Posted (edited)

Mooji is very good and I like his teachings and videos but my latest and most useful wizard is Jim Newman who, like Tony Parsons, recommends NO paths, methods, systems or doings such as that Buddhist thing.  The new witnesses say This is it!  You already are "there" or "awake", etc.  Any effort to quiet the mind or do/be something is taking you AWAY  from what you already are - perfect aliveness.

 

Edited by jimrich

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Its a very old and tedious question set on a very well trodden path ...

 

Quote

 

Pacifying the mind

Huike said to Bodhidharma, “My mind is anxious. Please pacify it.”
Bodhidharma replied, “Bring me your mind, and I will pacify it.”
Huike said, “Although I’ve sought it, I cannot find it.”
“There,” Bodhidharma replied, “I have pacified your mind.” [7]

 

~

Funnily enough I saw this only earlier today ...

 
Quote


Sanmati Tarka or The Logic of the True Doctrine

Posted on | February 26, 2017

Sanmati Tarka or The Logic of the True Doctrine is classic philosophical work on logic.  It was originally written by Siddhasēna Divākara in Sanskrit, then translated to Gujarati and to English. Siddhasēna Divākara was a fifth century CE monk, who was also known “Lamp-maker”, because of his great works on philosophy and epistemology in the early years of the Jain orders. In Sanmati Tarka he puts forward the theory of Anekantavada or many-sidedness. The basic idea of Anekantavada has its roots in the teachings of Mahāvīra, and it refers to the principles of pluralism and multiplicity of viewpoints, or vantage points, the notion that reality is perceived differently from diverse points of view, and that no single point of view is the complete truth, yet taken together they comprise the complete truth.


 

  • free PDF on Holybooks com link

~

 

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I once asked and older man who I respected where were all the enlightened people. He replied they're there, nobody notices them.

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Posted (edited)

I have to add, this enlightenment stuff or whatever one want's to call it, is an element of psychology. It's a psychological perspective, the death of the "ego-self". I'm not convinced this can be 100% achieved. This can become merely another psychological belief system, in my view. I think under duress the ego will respond, as it never completely dies..

Some of these people come across with bigger ego's than they may have had previously. Some seem to have no human compassion in their hearts, they're all intellect..Some seem to have become pod people from The Invasion of the Body Snatcher's. :)

The Buddha was a compassionate physician who wanted to cure and therefore free people of their psychological misconceptions. He included a morality in his message. This is an essential complimentary.

You may say this is my ego's fear of enlightenment speaking, but I expect more of these people than I hear them communicate. Maybe I expect too much.

Edit: The Buddha said something like, "Beware, the Guru enters the village."

 

Edited by StarMountainKid
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Posted (edited)

On 2/21/2017 at 3:22 AM, jimrich said:

your false, temporary egoic self does not and never did exist!  Man, that really p***es folks off!

This is the expected result when you remove a child from a playroom. Experiential knowledge is gained through play. Those who gain no more find another playroom.

The earliest human toys were reduced from wood and sculpted of clay. The toy is not the medium, but the toy is as real as the medium. The Universe and its contents are sculpted and reduced from being, from existence. The Ego is as real as the medium from which it forms. Once the toy is no longer interesting, it falls away from consciousness. It is the same of the Ego.

Rather than thinking of particular things as illusory, observe that the act of discriminating the Monad into discrete parts is the source of illusion. Still, it is a useful illusion. This is why existence exists.

Edited by AsherEhyehAsher
Typological correction
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My perspective is, the ego is an illusion in the sense that it is a mental state. As Asher EhyehAsher says, when it is no longer interesting it falls away from consciousness. Then a different mental state takes its place.

All this is gooey biology, even the enlightened unified non-ego being. This is just another psychological mental state, a neurological configuration of the brain.

When we add to this some esoteric scheme, this is the ego operating again. If the ego-self is a useful illusion, leave it alone as a useful illusion. If the non-ego-self is operating, leave it alone, as well. When we add 'extras' to these mental states, we are conjuring only mental concepts. 

The mind is good at imagining all sorts of mystical addenda. I think 'what is' is enough for us, and is our only real truth.

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