Atlantis in the Altiplano

[Swede]

16 hours ago, Vrcocha said:

That was a nice copy and paste but can we talk real world for a moment.

Starting from the south. The Altiplano has the largest salt flat in the world. There are also other little ones and lake Poopo which last I heard had dried up.   There's a salt lake just 20 miles north of Lake Titicaca where they still mine salt. plus there small small pockets of salt that can be seen in some of the fields.Then you get up to the Maras salt mines which would have been at the very northern tip of the ancient sea. There you can clearly see that it's running out of a hill side some 60 or more feet below the top of the hill. This salt did not get there from local run off and collect 60 feet under ground. Then about 3 and a half mile south west of there you can see Moray. A natural sink hole in the plateau which could be related to the salt running out of the ground at  Maras.

Now look at the whole Altiplano. It's a basin that sits at 12000 feet above sea level which means the mountains around it are not that high above the valley floor. It's also much like a bath tub gaining water from only within the basin itself, except for a few exception where it receives some water from the outside. It's not nearly enough area to account for all the salt that's been collected there.

 

Yes, let us talk “real world”.

1) The subduction of the Nazca oceanic plate under the South American plate has resulted in the orogenesis and uplift of the Andes Mountains and Altiplano.

2) Recent studies indicate that the southern Altiplano rose approximately 2.5 km (~8200 ft) between 16 million and 9 million years ago, a rather short time by geological standards (Garzione et al 2014). You will note that the most recent of these dates is millions of years before the appearance of the first hominids, let alone the earliest hominins.

3) As you note, the basin of the Altiplano is endorheic (lacking fluvial outlets). Thus, as previously cited, the area is subject to the concentration of salts (and other minerals) due to the evaporation of inflowing drainages. This is particularly true given the arid to semi-arid conditions of the region.

4) Deeper concentrations of salts are attributable to, amongst others, soils permeability and aquifer transport.

The processes of halite concentration in the Altiplano have a number of observable parallels. An easily studied example would be that of latter Pleistocene Lake Bonneville, the Bonneville Salt Flats, and Great Salt Lake, Utah, US. Or would you be proposing that the Great Basin region of the US was also once an oceanic island that was cataclysmically submerged within the modern human timeframe?

.

[stereologist]

It has been mentioned that the largest salt flat in the world is there. True, but that salt is not thick.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salar_de_Uyuni

The fact that the salt is only a few meters thick tells us that this is not salt from an ancient sea. Another important fact is the chemistry. The salt is rich in lithium. The salt is not like ocean salt.

As I have repeatedly pointed out this is salt from weathering, not from an ocean.

[Doc Socks Junior]

1 hour ago, Swede said:

Yes, let us talk “real world”.

1) The subduction of the Nazca oceanic plate under the South American plate has resulted in the orogenesis and uplift of the Andes Mountains and Altiplano.

2) Recent studies indicate that the southern Altiplano rose approximately 2.5 km (~8200 ft) between 16 million and 9 million years ago, a rather short time by geological standards (Garzione et al 2014). You will note that the most recent of these dates is millions of years before the appearance of the first hominids, let alone the earliest hominins.

3) As you note, the basin of the Altiplano is endorheic (lacking fluvial outlets). Thus, as previously cited, the area is subject to the concentration of salts (and other minerals) due to the evaporation of inflowing drainages. This is particularly true given the arid to semi-arid conditions of the region.

4) Deeper concentrations of salts are attributable to, amongst others, soils permeability and aquifer transport.

The processes of halite concentration in the Altiplano have a number of observable parallels. An easily studied example would be that of latter Pleistocene Lake Bonneville, the Bonneville Salt Flats, and Great Salt Lake, Utah, US. Or would you be proposing that the Great Basin region of the US was also once an oceanic island that was cataclysmically submerged within the modern human timeframe?

.

I get 9-16 Myr error bars on pieces of data all the time. And those are relatively good data.

Also, Death Valley is another good salt-concentration analogue. It's the reason the absurdly depressing town of Trona exists. 

[Swede]

19 minutes ago, Socks Junior said:

I get 9-16 Myr error bars on pieces of data all the time. And those are relatively good data.

Also, Death Valley is another good salt-concentration analogue. It's the reason the absurdly depressing town of Trona exists. 

 Hi Socks,

May have been a bit too brief in discussing the research of Garzione et al (2014). Just to clarify: Their research indicates a series of uplift bursts that occurred between 16 mya and 9 mya for a cumulative elevation rise of ~2.5 km. This research is interesting because it argues against the slow, steady elevation changes generally envisioned. 

And yes, Death Valley is another good example. One could also include the Dead Sea and a number of others.

.

[Doc Socks Junior]

21 minutes ago, Swede said:

 Hi Socks,

May have been a bit too brief in discussing the research of Garzione et al (2014). Just to clarify: Their research indicates a series of uplift bursts that occurred between 16 mya and 9 mya for a cumulative elevation rise of ~2.5 km. This research is interesting because it argues against the slow, steady elevation changes generally envisioned. 

And yes, Death Valley is another good example. One could also include the Dead Sea and a number of others.

.

Hey!

I was attempting to provide an example of how short, relatively speaking, that entire period is in geologic time. Garzione et al. (2014) is an interesting paper. It, like many paleoaltimetry papers, seem to be at odds with previous studies of uplift. Paleoaltimetry - you get a temperature and a del18 and you infer uplift. Always seems to be rapid. I find myself a little skeptical of the results, generally speaking. They do make no mistake of reporting that they get large errors - but how confident should we be that data analysis producing errors of these magnitude (0.7 +/- 0.6 km??) is telling us something legitimate. 

[Harte]

On ‎2‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 0:32 PM, Vrcocha said:

Stop peeing on my boots and then tell me it raining.

I'm done.

It's been one day now.

You think he r-u-n-n-o-f-t?

Harte

[Vrcocha]

It's been fun guys and gals, I had a load of laughs from some of the responses but I can't see sticking around when the majority of my posts are being misinterpreted.  I never expected anyone to agree with this wild theory but It's obvious from a lot of the posts that no one here is even remotely willing to entertain the idea of older civilizations.  I understand that because there is no expert saying it and If he did he would be ruined forever.  It's like it's some kind of strange religion trying to keep the time line of human civilization as short as possible.

It seems all anyone can do here anyway is repeat what some expert said on the internet. Just Google it and let them tell you what to think because that will be the winning argument anyway.

 

Nothing to question here,

it's wind erosion because the experts say it's only 4500 years old.  

After all they couldn't be wrong or have an agenda.

We must believe the expert gods.

 

Since I know the deliberate misinterpreting will never end, it would be insane to go on.
I may be crazy but  I'm not crazy enough to hang around this place any longer.

LOL

You win
Everyone have a great life.

Live Long and Prosper

Vrcocha

[back to earth]

Edited February 28, 2017 by back to earth

[Totah Dine]

You might want to get down off that cross.  Someone could need the wood.  :/

[back to earth]

Indeed  

 

 

 

Edited February 28, 2017 by back to earth

[Jarocal]

10 minutes ago, Vrcocha said:

It's been fun guys and gals, I had a load of laughs from some of the responses but I can't see sticking around when the majority of my posts are being misinterpreted.  I never expected anyone to agree with this wild theory but It's obvious from a lot of the posts that no one here is even remotely willing to entertain the idea of older civilizations.  I understand that because there is no expert saying it and If he did he would be ruined forever.  It's like it's some kind of strange religion trying to keep the time line of human civilization as short as possible.

It seems all anyone can do here anyway is repeat what some expert said on the internet. Just Google it and let them tell you what to think because that will be the winning argument anyway.

 

Nothing to question here,

it's wind erosion because the experts say it's only 4500 years old.  

After all they couldn't be wrong or have an agenda.

We must believe the expert gods.

 

Since I know the deliberate misinterpreting will never end, it would be insane to go on.
I may be crazy but  I'm not crazy enough to hang around this place any longer.

LOL

You win
Everyone have a great life.

Live Long and Prosper

Vrcocha

Skeptics here do not dismiss out of hand the possibility of a previously.undiscovered civilization.  They do however insist on.definitive evidence. 

[ShadowSot]

Ah, the good old "You can't handle the truth!" 

 Never fails.

 It's rich to rant about someone only using Google, when your support of your own argument is Youtube, Wikipedia, and hand waving exclamations that something is impossible. 

That you would post Gobekli Tepe here expecting us to be surprised while obviously knowing little about the site itself just furthers this. 

 So go ahead an flunce off to another forum, one more credulous. They might lap up the story as credulously as any other. Tossing it up onto the pile of every other time someone has exclaimed to have discovered the true location of Atlantis. From the bottom of the ocean, to the Americas, even on Mars or the Moon. 

 Because at the end of the day all tgese stories and claims carry the same weight. 

 And as we move forward and find older sites, or new complexities in our understanding, the fringe will insist on ancient red headed races or aliens or somesuch as they stand in astonishment at holes drilled in rocks. 

[kmt_sesh]

38 minutes ago, Vrcocha said:

It's been fun guys and gals, I had a load of laughs from some of the responses but I can't see sticking around when the majority of my posts are being misinterpreted.  I never expected anyone to agree with this wild theory but It's obvious from a lot of the posts that no one here is even remotely willing to entertain the idea of older civilizations.  I understand that because there is no expert saying it and If he did he would be ruined forever.  It's like it's some kind of strange religion trying to keep the time line of human civilization as short as possible.

It seems all anyone can do here anyway is repeat what some expert said on the internet. Just Google it and let them tell you what to think because that will be the winning argument anyway.

 

Nothing to question here,

it's wind erosion because the experts say it's only 4500 years old.  

After all they couldn't be wrong or have an agenda.

We must believe the expert gods.

 

Since I know the deliberate misinterpreting will never end, it would be insane to go on.
I may be crazy but  I'm not crazy enough to hang around this place any longer.

LOL

You win
Everyone have a great life.

Live Long and Prosper

Vrcocha

I don't feel I've once misinterpreted you. I try very hard never to do that with other posters. I haven't read all of the posts in this discussion but I don't see it as quite the chronic problem you seem to paint it as. And speaking for myself, I don't use the internet for historical or scientific research. Through considerable expense I've amassed a sizable private library for that purpose. And I have no problem relaying what the experts have presented, because they are the experts and have the education, training, and experience to present valid and reliable findings. YouTube videos, Google Earth, and internet pictures do not constitute real research, in my way of thinking.

But there's no reason to proceed if you're leaving the discussion. Most who present such hypotheses as yours do end up leaving us, it seems. It's their right; it's your right. I don't see anyone as a winner when the debate has not truly progressed as it should. Yet perhaps it's the right choice for you. In the least I thank you for bringing us a lively and spirited debate. Maybe you'll have better luck at another forum with a smaller population of science-minded folks. Best of luck to you in the future.

[cormac mac airt]

Sorry kmt_sesh, but I feel another Hava Nagila moment coming on. 

cormac

[stereologist]

1 hour ago, Vrcocha said:

It's been fun guys and gals, I had a load of laughs from some of the responses but I can't see sticking around when the majority of my posts are being misinterpreted.  I never expected anyone to agree with this wild theory but It's obvious from a lot of the posts that no one here is even remotely willing to entertain the idea of older civilizations.  I understand that because there is no expert saying it and If he did he would be ruined forever.  It's like it's some kind of strange religion trying to keep the time line of human civilization as short as possible.

It seems all anyone can do here anyway is repeat what some expert said on the internet. Just Google it and let them tell you what to think because that will be the winning argument anyway.

**snipped excess text

Since I know the deliberate misinterpreting will never end, it would be insane to go on.
I may be crazy but  I'm not crazy enough to hang around this place any longer.

LOL

You win
Everyone have a great life.

Live Long and Prosper

Vrcocha

This is the basic plan of all fringies. They are shown to be wrong and they go on to misrepresent how science works. When the evidence shows that nearly 100% f their statements are in error they pretend that accepting an idea would ruin reputations. I challenge all fringies to show any well known scientist that did not present a new view. I challenge any fringie to go any scientific meeting and find even one person attempting to stick with the status quo. It is of course a death sentence to your position to not challenge or extend what is already known. Experiments may support the current theory or show an inadequacy. Everyone wants to find something that disrupts the status quo. That is the path to new knowledge.

Fringies on the other hand have to basically lie about how science works to cover up their failures. Instead of learning they reject evidence. That is being close minded.

Feel free to point out any misrepresenting of your position. I don't recall you doing that.

Edited February 28, 2017 by stereologist
Tone it down stereo!

[stereologist]

I for one learned some interesting things in this discussion. I had the location of the lithium deposit wrong. I thought it was just in Chile. I read about some fascinating ruins. I learned more about ancient drilling methods.

[ShadowSot]

2 minutes ago, stereologist said:

I for one learned some interesting things in this discussion. I had the location of the lithium deposit wrong. I thought it was just in Chile. I read about some fascinating ruins. I learned more about ancient drilling methods.

Which is why I love these threads. Shame they keep getting rarer. 

[jaylemurph]

1 hour ago, Vrcocha said:

It's been fun guys and gals, I had a load of laughs from some of the responses but I can't see sticking around when the majority of my posts are being misinterpreted.  I never expected anyone to agree with this wild theory but It's obvious from a lot of the posts that no one here is even remotely willing to entertain the idea of older civilizations.  I understand that because there is no expert saying it and If he did he would be ruined forever.  It's like it's some kind of strange religion trying to keep the time line of human civilization as short as possible.

Called it.

--Jaylemurph

[docyabut2]

Yep Atlantis was not in the Americas  but like I tell all you Atlantis theorists, don't give up thats what's makes the whole theory interesting

[docyabut2]

1 hour ago, docyabut2 said:

There are no reed boats that could have cross the Atlantic to the Americas, let along a whole army from Greece 11,500 years ago according to the story  .I know they tried to prove  it by the RA expeditions , but those guys were dropped food and water along  the way, or else they wouldn't have made it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor_Heyerdahl

 

[kmt_sesh]

17 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

There are no reed boats that could have cross the Atlantic to the Americas, let along a whole army from Greece 11,500 years ago according to the story  .I know they tried to prove  it by the RA expeditions , but those guys were dropped food and water along  the way, or else they wouldn't have made it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor_Heyerdahl

Docy, that's the third time you've submitted the same post. No real harm, but let's make this one the last one. I removed the first two.

Thanks.

[docyabut2]

40 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

Docy, that's the third time you've submitted the same post. No real harm, but let's make this one the last one. I removed the first two.

Thanks.

Sorry kmt but sometimes I`d like to add  to my post , when its to late to edit .

Edited February 28, 2017 by docyabut2

[kmt_sesh]

24 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

Sorry kmt but sometimes I`d like to add  to my post , when its to late to edit .

No problem. 

[kmt_sesh]

2 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

Sorry kmt_sesh, but I feel another Hava Nagila moment coming on. 

cormac

If not that, there's always...dare I say it...your very special Fractal award. We haven't seen that in a long time. 

[Hanslune]

Long ago in my Army days we did a planning exercise and guess what we called the imaginary continent we were going to deal with?