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False Rings in Dendrochronology


Doug1029

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A long time ago on UM, DanieLost and I had a discussion on false rings and how they are detected and chronologies corrected for their occurrence.  The link below connects to a paper on that problem and tells in detail what is the significance of false and/or missing rings in eastern redcedar.  I am now building an eastern redcedar chronology.  About 25% of the rings in the 85-tree sample are false rings (Eastern redcedar is particularly prone to the problem.).  Also, I have Edmondson's Keystone collection (the actual cores) for reference.  Several papers may result from this, including an analysis of what weather in which months produces the false rings and what temperatures and rainfall occur in association with false rings.  Once this information is available, we can detect and estimate the intensity (including temps and rainfall) for specific storms hundreds of years ago.  The next step is to estimate changes in storm frequencies and intensities over the centuries in order to measure climate change.

Already, the occurrence of severe winter storms, droughts and wet periods can be detected and the intensity of the drought measured on the Palmer Drought Severity Index.  It appears we may soon be able to detect wind storms and distinguish them from other storms.  We are beginning to put numbers on these weather events.  How cold does it have to get to affect trees rings?  What percentage of trees are damaged and how badly by an ice storm?  During the ice storm, what was the range of temperatures, how much ice accumulated, how much ice and what direction was the wind from?

Climate change is not only real, I can measure it.  This is how.

Doug

 

http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.3959/2008-13.1

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  • 2 weeks later...
 

There was some concern when Trmp took office that he would try to entirely block climate research.  In the tree ring community there was concern about the loss of our major databases.  Fortunately, Trmp doesn't have the stomach for the kind of fight that was coming.

This morning I got an email that the entire International Tree Ring Database has been backed up and is available to any who wish to download it.  The tactic is to broadcast the data so far and wide that no natural or manmade disaster can destroy it.  That, at least, is one good thing about Trmp's attempt to silence climate research:  our files are safe.

Doug

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As i am into trees and more of old growth forests.. the preservation of this kind of knowledge is essential

The added 'fertilizers' and other manufactured ways or trying to increase the production time can cause 'weaker' trees.. a lower structural density

While i am not professionally educated.. the difference between old wood from a hundred +yrs ago and the new wood... way less strength

an old film storage box i have.. very thin wood.. old old wood.. and it is a heavy duty box.. i can stand on it.. 

I will talk later.. i hope to follow this up soon

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I have always wondered if the commercisl forestry industry is similar to the other farming.. the seedlings are planted in rows and 'loosely' spaced.. not the same as nature has always done

maybe the trees are growing too fast and not having the various tree rings in uniform fashion like i see in lumber.. older trees have varying thickness.. a one milimeter length of a 'ring'.. makes a difference when having several dozen rings or 'years' ...

The length of a ring is based on one year of growth... so the less optimal overall growth that year may produce smaller rings? as it translates into pliability of the wood produced.. or bendability.. also tension and strength capability of the various kinds of wood that is 'replanted' 

...

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It's not gonna matter, Doug. You can't awaken those who are pretending to be asleep. 

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On ‎3‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 9:27 AM, ChaosRose said:

It's not gonna matter, Doug. You can't awaken those who are pretending to be asleep. 

Maybe not.  But I keep trying.

Doug

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On ‎3‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 8:31 PM, insanityitrust said:

I have always wondered if the commercisl forestry industry is similar to the other farming.. the seedlings are planted in rows and 'loosely' spaced.. not the same as nature has always done

maybe the trees are growing too fast and not having the various tree rings in uniform fashion like i see in lumber.. older trees have varying thickness.. a one milimeter length of a 'ring'.. makes a difference when having several dozen rings or 'years' ...

The length of a ring is based on one year of growth... so the less optimal overall growth that year may produce smaller rings? as it translates into pliability of the wood produced.. or bendability.. also tension and strength capability of the various kinds of wood that is 'replanted' 

...

Commercial forestry does indeed see itself as similar to traditional farming.  "It takes a season to grow a cabbage and a century to grow a sawlog."  The US Forest Service is part of the Department of Agriculture, not the Interior.

Trees are planted in rows only because the planting is being done by machine, which can only travel in a straight line (more or less), or by hand planters who are trying to maintain an approximate seedling density and find it easier to think in terms of square spacing.  Trees naturally want to assume a hexagonal spacing; even a plantation, when thinned, gets closer and closer to hexagonal spacing with each thinning.

Tree rings vary in thickness throughout the tree's life.  Young trees grow faster and have wider rings; old ones grow slower and have narrow rings.  Ring thickness is affected by available water, available light, storms, temperatures, fires, and animal and human-caused disturbances.

There is a long-standing argument about whether wood quality is affected by growth rate.  Wood density is usually taken as the metric for quality.  In that case, there is no relationship between density and growth.  The presence of knots and other things that affect growth can also affect strength by creating weak spots.

Doug

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I do agree on the need for commercial farming.. the clear cutting of who areas... changes a lot of variables... so many to write quickly

when this 'data' is only seen on spreadsheets and economics.. eg. corporations owning vast regions for profit... there were many thousands of acres no longer viable for growing the older, well established/minor ecosystems/unique to specific enviro-conditions... 

yet.. one solution.. varying to political climates.. hemp plants along with the various trees removed? or just plant hemp... they can take in carbon dioxide whatever and the do not harvest!  

i can dream and day dreamin is fun some times

 

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Pretty much all private enterprise is run by sociopaths.  If you aren't like that you don't get to such a position.  Hence one cannot really appeal to their morals or humanity but must instead impose fines and see to it competition stays alive (something they always try to overcome -- and usually succeed to at least some degree).

The opposite is government enterprise, but it is run by the same types for the same reason.

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There was a quote i heard in a roger waters song (from pink floyd) on the radio kaos album years ago...

'everything makes sense, expressed in dollars and sense'.. (i do not know the actual words.. it was a popular song on the radio)  or was cents?  

move the .00 in the economics anywhere.. two to the left and things will still be what they are... 

this thread was about trees i think... yep

gotta go.. i gots work to be done ttyl

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10 hours ago, insanityitrust said:

I do agree on the need for commercial farming.. the clear cutting of who areas... changes a lot of variables... so many to write quickly

when this 'data' is only seen on spreadsheets and economics.. eg. corporations owning vast regions for profit... there were many thousands of acres no longer viable for growing the older, well established/minor ecosystems/unique to specific enviro-conditions... 

yet.. one solution.. varying to political climates.. hemp plants along with the various trees removed? or just plant hemp... they can take in carbon dioxide whatever and the do not harvest!  

i can dream and day dreamin is fun some times

 

Even in species that require direct sunlight and cannot tolerate shade from over-topping trees (Douglas-fir, yellow poplar, walnut, ash), only about one cutting out of five needs to be a clear-cut.  The rest are, essentially, thinnings in which the cut trees are sold.

Ecologists estimate that we need to keep about 20% of our land area in old growth to maintain healthy ecosystems.  We've already cut more than that.  Fortunately, old growth can be re-created, given a century or two.

Cultivating other crops in combination with trees is called agro-forestry.  There's a research station working on this at Booneville, Arkansas if Trmp hasn't closed it down yet.

Keep dreaming.

Doug

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In wet areas... bamboo seems to work.. planting around cedar in a garden.. kept short.. 

the areas that have been clearcut have been a few years ago... yet some even say they have healed somewhat.. yet... there is that rumour of only a set width of trees along roads and hghwys..

anyway.. new ideas seem to only need to be seen... so.. time to get back to it

 

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12 minutes ago, insanityitrust said:

In wet areas... bamboo seems to work.. planting around cedar in a garden.. kept short.. 

the areas that have been clearcut have been a few years ago... yet some even say they have healed somewhat.. yet... there is that rumour of only a set width of trees along roads and hghwys..

anyway.. new ideas seem to only need to be seen... so.. time to get back to it

 

Wet areas turn tree ring width on its head.  A tree standing on a site that is too wet for it produces narrow rings if the year is wetter than usual and wider rings during dryer years.  If you're familiar with Reelfoot Lake in western Kentucky/Tennessee:  it was created by the New Madrid Earthquake in 1812.  The bald cypress that lines the old river channel are still there, being very tolerant of high water, but all the bottomland trees in the adjacent areas were drowned when the land sank.  A set of cores has been collected from those cypresses.  It has the inverted ring pattern.

Fortunately, the 600-acre clearcut is a thing of the past.  But we wouldn't know it was a mistake if nobody had ever made that mistake.  Nowadays, clearcuts tend to be about 40 acres and shaped to fit the sites they are on.

Strips along roadways are left for aesthetic purposes.  That's not an attempt to deceive the public about clearcuts; it's an attempt to preserve the view.  Also, there's the issue of the roadway belonging to the State Highway Department and the adjacent area belonging to somebody else.  Oregon has an excellent roadside buffer strip program.  They preserve old growth trees right up to the highway.  Once in awhile there's a blowdown and they have to log a small area.  It pays to log small areas when the trees are eight feet in diameter.

Doug

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The buffer zone works for the polution control...hemp is a fuel source.. seeds.. nutritional benefits.. years ago.. they went oil.. yet.. if drilling oil interupts possible ground watet.. even if only recently or as a result of the older wells... and yet..  all them newer and or changed water ways... underground.. several hundred feet even... there are so many competing theories...

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