Claire. Posted March 14, 2017 #1 Share Posted March 14, 2017 What's the Difference Between Me and You? Imagine that you have a serious accident that leaves you lying brain-dead on a hospital bed. Your body is still alive but you are no longer self-conscious nor can you ever again be. Are you still you? Some thinkers have argued that a person at a time A is the same as a person at a time B because his body or brain is the same body or brain at both times, in the sense that they are continuous in space and time. Other have argued that this is not the case, and that a person at a time A is the same as a person at a time B because they are psychologically continuous, that is, the mental states of the person at a time B derive or descend from the mental states of the person at a time A. Read more: Psychology Today 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podo Posted March 14, 2017 #2 Share Posted March 14, 2017 They're the same person because it is the same meat. Our meat and squishy bits are the only thing that makes us us, and attempting to separate our bodies from an ephemeral "soul" or whathaveyou doesn't make a lot of sense. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimrich Posted March 15, 2017 #3 Share Posted March 15, 2017 (edited) On 3/14/2017 at 4:14 AM, Claire. said: What's the Difference Between Me and You? Imagine that you have a serious accident that leaves you lying brain-dead on a hospital bed. Your body is still alive but you are no longer self-conscious nor can you ever again be. Are you still you? Some thinkers have argued that a person at a time A is the same as a person at a time B because his body or brain is the same body or brain at both times, in the sense that they are continuous in space and time. Other have argued that this is not the case, and that a person at a time A is the same as a person at a time B because they are psychologically continuous, that is, the mental states of the person at a time B derive or descend from the mental states of the person at a time A. Read more: Psychology Today My current understanding of "you" is that there are two possibilities here -- a finite you and an infinite You (often spelled with a capital Y.) Actually, there is only one 'you'. There is only Infinite Consciousness, Being or Energy and there is no such thing as birth or death for Infinite Being whereas there is both birth and death for the finite or individual person. It might be said that there is no such thing as an individual. There is only Infinite Life appearing as individuals on an apparent world in an apparent universe. So, are you still you? Yes, of course, what else could I, Infinite Life, be? A rather serious flaw in our language is the failure to clearly define words like: you, I, we, us, my, mine, me, they, them, those,their, etc. There is an infinite version of 'you' (often spelled as You) and there is a finite version of 'you' and other pronouns but our language only recognizes the finite versions and leaves the infinite version of life to mysticism, mythology, spirituality, etc. So I'd restate the question: "Are You, the infinite one still you the finite one?" or perhaps, "Are you, the finite one, still you, the finite one?" Well, you are always you but may not always be a finite one. Edited March 15, 2017 by jimrich 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire. Posted March 18, 2017 Author #4 Share Posted March 18, 2017 So what if, as in the example presented in the article, you receive a brain transplant? Are you still you? Or are you that someone else? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarMountainKid Posted March 18, 2017 #5 Share Posted March 18, 2017 What's the difference between me and you? The genes that are responsible for the construction of the brain and life experience. Nature and nurture. An artist's brain may have a different structure than a mathematician's brain. As far as the you and the You are concerned (jimrich), I think this is speculation, though a possibility. I consider consciousness a product of the individual brain and is not as mysterious or magical as it seems. Me and you experience the same consciousness in that it feels the same for both of us. This does not mean that consciousness is some Universal Consciousness. Ours is just the same conscious experience. Pain feels the same for me as for you, does this mean there is Universal Pain? I think not, it's just the same feeling we separately share. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kismit Posted March 18, 2017 #6 Share Posted March 18, 2017 2 hours ago, Claire. said: So what if, as in the example presented in the article, you receive a brain transplant? Are you still you? Or are you that someone else? Ask the family. The answer I believe would be, no. I'm cases of altzhiemerz and other brain degenerative conditions, or indeed late stage terminal cancer. The personality and physical attributes of strength/self reliance change and alter so much it is to the grieving like losing a, You, in increments. Grief starts muchearlier than death in situations like this because a person's entire personality and physical attributes is how they define themselves and are defined by others. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire. Posted March 18, 2017 Author #7 Share Posted March 18, 2017 1 hour ago, Kismit said: Ask the family. The answer I believe would be, no. I'm cases of altzhiemerz and other brain degenerative conditions, or indeed late stage terminal cancer. The personality and physical attributes of strength/self reliance change and alter so much it is to the grieving like losing a, You, in increments. Grief starts muchearlier than death in situations like this because a person's entire personality and physical attributes is how they define themselves and are defined by others. I completely agree. But could it also be argued that it's still them, albeit in an 'altered' or 'broken' state? Could the 'essence' of the person still be there somewhere? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.ZZ. Posted March 18, 2017 #8 Share Posted March 18, 2017 1 minute ago, Claire. said: I completely agree. But could it also be argued that it's still them, albeit in an 'altered' or 'broken' state? Could the 'essence' of the person still be there somewhere? Most definitely, I believe that we have a "soul" that is the essence of life. Without sounding too religious, I like to think that mine will live on for eternity., possibly even returning as an animal, hopefully it will be an eagle or a falcon! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire. Posted March 18, 2017 Author #9 Share Posted March 18, 2017 1 minute ago, .ZZ. said: Most definitely, I believe that we have a "soul" that is the essence of life. Without sounding too religious, I like to think that mine will live on for eternity., possibly even returning as an animal, hopefully it will be an eagle or a falcon! After seeing E9's cushy little life, I don't blame you! I personally don't believe that consciousness exists outside the brain or that we have a 'soul' in that sense, but I'm glad that you do because I have a question. Let's pretend our brains were switched, and that each still contained our memories, knowledge, skills, interests, etc., Would you be me, and me you? And what would happen to our soul (consciousness)? Would it go wherever the brain did or would it stay with our physical bodies? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.ZZ. Posted March 18, 2017 #10 Share Posted March 18, 2017 17 minutes ago, Claire. said: After seeing E9's cushy little life, I don't blame you! I personally don't believe that consciousness exists outside the brain or that we have a 'soul' in that sense, but I'm glad that you do because I have a question. Let's pretend our brains were switched, and that each still contained our memories, knowledge, skills, interests, etc., Would you be me, and me you? And what would happen to our soul (consciousness)? Would it go wherever the brain did or would it stay with our physical bodies? I would like to soar like an eagle and dive at 240 MPH like a Peregrine falcon. Great question Claire, I really had to think about that. At first blush, one would think that all of our memories, knowledge, skills, interests, etc, are contained in the brain. I believe it may go deeper than that. "My heart wasn't in it", "That person has a lot of heart" Are those just colloquialisms or based on some fact? Who is to say where our personalities originate? Because of this stimulating thread my brain is starting to get kick started. I need some more time for inner reflection. Not to mention more coffee. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kismit Posted March 18, 2017 #11 Share Posted March 18, 2017 9 minutes ago, .ZZ. said: I would like to soar like an eagle and dive at 240 MPH like a Peregrine falcon. Great question Claire, I really had to think about that. At first blush, one would think that all of our memories, knowledge, skills, interests, etc, are contained in the brain. I believe it may go deeper than that. "My heart wasn't in it", "That person has a lot of heart" Are those just colloquialisms or based on some fact? Who is to say where our personalities originate? Because of this stimulating thread my brain is starting to get kick started. I need some more time for inner reflection. Not to mention more coffee. You're right the neuro system is far more complex than just the brain. It's a series of hormone responses as well, but I believe personality is in the brain. Although learned habits may come from elsewhere. But that's just a gut feeling . 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.ZZ. Posted March 18, 2017 #12 Share Posted March 18, 2017 12 minutes ago, Kismit said: You're right the neuro system is far more complex than just the brain. It's a series of hormone responses as well, but I believe personality is in the brain. Although learned habits may come from elsewhere. But that's just a gut feeling . I see what you did there! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KNash Posted March 19, 2017 #13 Share Posted March 19, 2017 On 3/14/2017 at 4:14 AM, Claire. said: What's the Difference Between Me and You? Imagine that you have a serious accident that leaves you lying brain-dead on a hospital bed. Your body is still alive but you are no longer self-conscious nor can you ever again be. Are you still you? Some thinkers have argued that a person at a time A is the same as a person at a time B because his body or brain is the same body or brain at both times, in the sense that they are continuous in space and time. Other have argued that this is not the case, and that a person at a time A is the same as a person at a time B because they are psychologically continuous, that is, the mental states of the person at a time B derive or descend from the mental states of the person at a time A. Read more: Psychology Today 2 I don't think that there is a definitive answer to this question because an individual's perception of a person is always going to be based on their own personal beliefs and life experience. For example, I may think that Tom (random name) is or isn't the same person after this hypothetical accident, but him being the same, psychologically or not, can't be validated by him because he isn't self-aware anymore. Tom's metacognition doesn't exist after the accident so who is to say that he is or isn't the same in his present state? In some ways, Tom ceases to exist, to me, because he isn't self-aware anymore. My opinion on Tom "existing" or not would be based on my own personal beliefs. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire. Posted March 19, 2017 Author #14 Share Posted March 19, 2017 9 hours ago, KNash said: I don't think that there is a definitive answer to this question because an individual's perception of a person is always going to be based on their own personal beliefs and life experience. For example, I may think that Tom (random name) is or isn't the same person after this hypothetical accident, but him being the same, psychologically or not, can't be validated by him because he isn't self-aware anymore. Tom's metacognition doesn't exist after the accident so who is to say that he is or isn't the same in his present state? In some ways, Tom ceases to exist, to me, because he isn't self-aware anymore. My opinion on Tom "existing" or not would be based on my own personal beliefs. Interesting perspective. But what if Tom was indeed self-aware but had no way of communicating that information to you? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka CAT Posted March 19, 2017 #15 Share Posted March 19, 2017 (edited) That the author of the topical article couldn't keep the names of his hypothetical subjects straight was initially excuse enough for me to avoid a thread about an approximation of myself. Post-comatose, I was a total amnesiac for a time. I believe I retained my soul during that phase even though I'd never be my former self. Now, I think we are all more or less our former selves, while none of is ever exactly as we were at any time in the past. Even so, I was enough different that I insisted my husband remarry me, which makes us both married twice and never divorced. Edited March 19, 2017 by aka CAT 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarakore Posted March 19, 2017 #16 Share Posted March 19, 2017 Awwwwwww. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KNash Posted March 22, 2017 #17 Share Posted March 22, 2017 On 3/19/2017 at 7:14 AM, Claire. said: Interesting perspective. But what if Tom was indeed self-aware but had no way of communicating that information to you? Very possible! I think that would mean Tom is the only one who could validate that he is or isn't the same after the incident. In turn, we may think that Tom is not the same anymore, but in reality, he is. The focus then becomes, who's perspective constitutes reality and what's true? If we only have one perspective and not the other, because Tom can't communicate, can we really say that Tom is or isn't the same anymore? We can only speculate and base what we think off of our own perspective. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarakore Posted March 22, 2017 #18 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Perspective by default is not based in reality. They might combine to form one ingredient of reality and act as an interface to it. People live in our neurons regardless of their perspective. We might choose to share or understand their perspective. That might enhance their presence in our neurons? When someone is far away or dead they still are present in our neurons as much as they are when near. No difference. Tom can never really be dead to us as our neurons won't allow it. To change gears now there is no me or you. VS Ramachandran proved our skin acts as a filter so we can screen out the actions and thoughts of others. Just as our body won't naturally accept someone else's organ in a transplant. The greateat illusion is that I am here and you are there. We are all one and will never truly die because the magic behind creating life does not stop when the shell stops. Science can explain how life works but not what is actually responsible for it all because that would be one step closer to being able to create life. And there is no steps as it pervades all and is always with us. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted March 23, 2017 #19 Share Posted March 23, 2017 Quote I kinda believe we have a astral body http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/doctors-confirm-woman-s-imaginary-third-arm/655352 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted March 23, 2017 #20 Share Posted March 23, 2017 In the end, all living things down to their very thoughts are corporeal manifestations of information and information, with sufficient technology, can be quite insubstantial and easily preserved. Hopefully, were all on: RECORD, somewhere. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perdurabo Posted March 23, 2017 #21 Share Posted March 23, 2017 If a question does not answer itself, you either do not know what you mean by one or more elements of the question (the definition of "You" or "Me" or "Difference") or you are making a false assumption. As in assuming that you and I are separate things. Ask why we appear to be different first. I have a blog at Hearts of Paradox that goes into this in more detail. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
preacherman76 Posted March 23, 2017 #22 Share Posted March 23, 2017 On 3/14/2017 at 1:25 PM, Podo said: They're the same person because it is the same meat. Our meat and squishy bits are the only thing that makes us us, and attempting to separate our bodies from an ephemeral "soul" or whathaveyou doesn't make a lot of sense. Sense? We are on a giant water/dirt ball propelling through space with massive nuclear explosions going on all around us. All with no idea how we got here, or whats really out there. Thinking things make sense is an illusion. If come to find out our consciousness can survive outside these meat suits, well, I wouldn't be at all surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KNash Posted March 24, 2017 #23 Share Posted March 24, 2017 On 3/22/2017 at 11:03 AM, I hide behind words said: Perspective by default is not based in reality. They might combine to form one ingredient of reality and act as an interface to it. People live in our neurons regardless of their perspective. We might choose to share or understand their perspective. That might enhance their presence in our neurons? When someone is far away or dead they still are present in our neurons as much as they are when near. No difference. Tom can never really be dead to us as our neurons won't allow it. To change gears now there is no me or you. VS Ramachandran proved our skin acts as a filter so we can screen out the actions and thoughts of others. Just as our body won't naturally accept someone else's organ in a transplant. The greateat illusion is that I am here and you are there. We are all one and will never truly die because the magic behind creating life does not stop when the shell stops. Science can explain how life works but not what is actually responsible for it all because that would be one step closer to being able to create life. And there is no steps as it pervades all and is always with us. 2 Interesting perspective. Could you clarify what you mean by "live in our neurons"? I'm thinking that you mean loved ones live on in our memories, but correct me if I'm wrong. When we retrieve memories of someone (dead or alive) the connection to those memories, specifically the amount of time it takes for our neural networks to retrieve them, is strengthened. When those connections are strengthened, emotions and other memories tied to that person are also enhanced. In a metaphorical sense, yes, loved ones are never dead. Could you also go into more detail on what you mean by Ramachandran "proving" that "our skin acts as a filter so we can screen out the actions and thoughts of others"? Please don't take this the wrong way because I'm not a jerk, but science does not prove. The word prove is not used by us scientists because replicating a series of experiments does not guarantee that the same results will be significant again. It's like a forbidden word in research much like the world Voldemort in the Harry Potter series . If results from an experiment are significant, those results support our theories and ideas. For each scientific article you read suggesting that something supports an idea, you will find another article saying the opposite. This is particularly true when it comes to cognitive science. So, to continue on this topic, we would first need to define some terms. We would need to define what living and dead means. Are either speaking in the metaphorical or physical sense? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarakore Posted March 24, 2017 #24 Share Posted March 24, 2017 17 hours ago, KNash said: Interesting perspective. Could you clarify what you mean by "live in our neurons"? I'm thinking that you mean loved ones live on in our memories, but correct me if I'm wrong. When we retrieve memories of someone (dead or alive) the connection to those memories, specifically the amount of time it takes for our neural networks to retrieve them, is strengthened. When those connections are strengthened, emotions and other memories tied to that person are also enhanced. In a metaphorical sense, yes, loved ones are never dead. Could you also go into more detail on what you mean by Ramachandran "proving" that "our skin acts as a filter so we can screen out the actions and thoughts of others"? Please don't take this the wrong way because I'm not a jerk, but science does not prove. The word prove is not used by us scientists because replicating a series of experiments does not guarantee that the same results will be significant again. It's like a forbidden word in research much like the world Voldemort in the Harry Potter series . If results from an experiment are significant, those results support our theories and ideas. For each scientific article you read suggesting that something supports an idea, you will find another article saying the opposite. This is particularly true when it comes to cognitive science. So, to continue on this topic, we would first need to define some terms. We would need to define what living and dead means. Are either speaking in the metaphorical or physical sense? For now here is the brief 10 minute segment of VS Ramachandran's TED Talk where he informs us how the skin acts as a filter so we would not consider the actions of another as our own with a mentioning of our whole consciousness being shared. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimrich Posted March 27, 2017 #25 Share Posted March 27, 2017 On 3/18/2017 at 9:06 AM, Claire. said: So what if, as in the example presented in the article, you receive a brain transplant? Are you still you? Or are you that someone else? I'd say the finite or personal, individual you might change but the Infinite, Real You does not and cannot ever change so, yes you will still be You - the true background or basic You. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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