Could Airships be commercially viable?

[Gingitsune]

1 hour ago, godnodog said:

Still at the end of the day viability comes from demand. I am not saying its not the best choice, thats why governments need to come up with regulations or subsidies.

It could be more likely to see these first neo-aircraft come out of Chinese government projects. Or else it will be one of these techno billionaires' pet projects.

[Merc14]

Actually Lockheed Martin is building them.  They bought out a smaller company and improved the design.  http://lockheedmartin.com/us/products/HybridAirship.html

 

[AnchorSteam]

3 hours ago, Gingitsune said:

Of course, the price tag to start the whole business is prohibitively high, so unless the Canadian government foot the bill, there little hope for this to take root.

...

Why would you say that?

People are capable of coming up with investors on their own, this was something I would have taken up myself if i had won the Lottery. People can do these things on their own, and it really wouldn't be that expensive. Some framework, gas-bags and some engines are all you are really talking about here. The biggest thing is all the lightwieght materials, and you could get creative with that. A helo-landing pad made of Balsa wood, for example.

 

But, yes, only a society in its ascendancy could come up with an industry like this, not one that is chocking to death on Lawyers, regulations and corruption. 

What nation on Earth fits that description today? 

[Gingitsune]

The problem really is more around legislation. If you and me were to construct one of these, we would have to go through years of paperwork before it is allowed to fly. No government want to deal with containers dropping from the sky. It would be much easier if it was coming from, say, the US army, the government would bend around backwards to give them all the necessary law to makes it work.

[Merc14]

2 hours ago, Gingitsune said:

The problem really is more around legislation. If you and me were to construct one of these, we would have to go through years of paperwork before it is allowed to fly. No government want to deal with containers dropping from the sky. It would be much easier if it was coming from, say, the US army, the government would bend around backwards to give them all the necessary law to makes it work.

You'd have to get it FAA certified like any other commercial aircraft but I know that Lockheed already has a certification plan on file with the FAA for their hybrid airship.  You should go to their site and look at some of the stuff the thing can do.

Edited March 26, 2017 by Merc14

[NorthenerON]

There is one reason and one reason only for why we don't use hydrogen for airships any more. Ready for it " IT'S BASICALLY FREE ". With todays tech hydrogen airships would be quite safe, with outer shells that don't have thermite on them to very advanced fire suppression systems. The thing is that with solar powered engines and a fuel supply that is basically free wheres the money for big corporate gas companies. (I know the conspiracy right) Personally I think hydrogen gets a bad rap because it explodes. Guess what so does gas and in ever vehicle there is a sending unit in the gas tank that just has to malfunction and car can go boom. And I don't see that happening.

Oh and yes I do believe that airships could and would be commercially viable.

Edited March 27, 2017 by NorthenerON
adding stuff.

[AnchorSteam]

7 hours ago, Gingitsune said:

The problem really is more around legislation. If you and me were to construct one of these, we would have to go through years of paperwork before it is allowed to fly. No government want to deal with containers dropping from the sky. It would be much easier if it was coming from, say, the US army, the government would bend around backwards to give them all the necessary law to makes it work.

Well, there is a way around that; how about a joint international effort?

The USA is drowning in regulations, but we have the innovators  that only the free exchange of ideas can give you. China does not have that for a myriad of cultural reasons, Asia really lags in that regard, but they do have a much more direct attitude when it comes to getting things done; "Just make it happen!" and off you go.

So, a combined effort taking advantage of each country's advantages and bypassing each other's weaknesses would appear to be the way to go. 

[AnchorSteam]

2 hours ago, NorthenerON said:

Oh and yes I do believe that airships could and would be commercially viable.

Thanks for saying so!

And yes, those explosive gasses might be workable if you are very careful, as the Germans were. I already mentioned the Graf Zeppelin, it was Hydrogen but only at each end. The center section was filled with "Blau" gas... propane, for the engines. That ship had a decade-long career that included a flight around the world in 1929 , and no mishaps. 

However, I think that today you could only do that with Cargo ships. Something that might just make them very lucrative.

[Thanato]

7 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

Thanks for saying so!

And yes, those explosive gasses might be workable if you are very careful, as the Germans were. I already mentioned the Graf Zeppelin, it was Hydrogen but only at each end. The center section was filled with "Blau" gas... propane, for the engines. That ship had a decade-long career that included a flight around the world in 1929 , and no mishaps. 

However, I think that today you could only do that with Cargo ships. Something that might just make them very lucrative.

But you don't need hydrogen. Hell the later Zeppelins were meant to run on helium but they couldn't get their hands on it, so back to hydrogen. So fill the ships with helium.

[Merc14]

19 hours ago, NorthenerON said:

There is one reason and one reason only for why we don't use hydrogen for airships any more. Ready for it " IT'S BASICALLY FREE ". With todays tech hydrogen airships would be quite safe, with outer shells that don't have thermite on them to very advanced fire suppression systems. The thing is that with solar powered engines and a fuel supply that is basically free wheres the money for big corporate gas companies. (I know the conspiracy right) Personally I think hydrogen gets a bad rap because it explodes. Guess what so does gas and in ever vehicle there is a sending unit in the gas tank that just has to malfunction and car can go boom. And I don't see that happening.

Oh and yes I do believe that airships could and would be commercially viable.

I don't think you understand how incredibly volatile hydrogen in a big bag is.  Also, why would Amazon, a multi-billion dollar giant care what "big corporate gas companies" think if they could ship goods for nearly free?   Watch this bag of hydrogen explode and explain to me how you suppress that?

 

[NorthenerON]

3 hours ago, Merc14 said:

I don't think you understand how incredibly volatile hydrogen in a big bag is.  Also, why would Amazon, a multi-billion dollar giant care what "big corporate gas companies" think if they could ship goods for nearly free?   Watch this bag of hydrogen explode and explain to me how you suppress that?

Oh I do understand that hydrogen is a very volatile gas. But the video you posted states hydrogen and oxygen which would be just insane to put in a blimp. Also a blimp isn't a big bag full of gas it's more like a bunch of little bladders in side. And still if you watch the Hindenburg disaster there's the first boom but then it just burns. If it wasn't for the outer skin I imagine more people would have lived.

[Merc14]

11 minutes ago, NorthenerON said:

Oh I do understand that hydrogen is a very volatile gas. But the video you posted states hydrogen and oxygen which would be just insane to put in a blimp. Also a blimp isn't a big bag full of gas it's more like a bunch of little bladders in side. And still if you watch the Hindenburg disaster there's the first boom but then it just burns. If it wasn't for the outer skin I imagine more people would have lived.

Ok here are balloons filled with just hydrogen, please tell me the big difference you see and then tell me how a series of balloons enclosed in a big bag would stop  catastrophic failure.

 

Edited March 28, 2017 by Merc14

[AnchorSteam]

See? This is why I said you could use it, but you will only be able to get away with that on Cargo ships.

Once those vids get out, you won't be able to get any passengers to come near a Hydrogen ship, no matter what precautions you took. It just ain't gonna happen.

[likwidlite]

Would it be possible to use giant sails on one? Like a giant floating galleon.  Then cover the craft and sails in solar panels.

A step further would be attaching to a wave power generator. The weight of it would act as an anchor whilst be generating more power for the craft.

In theory, there would be no need for any fuel to be carried on board, all batteries could be stored in the wave power generator, adding more weight to the anchor. So all space onboard could be utilised for storage. It would be an impressive eco shipping alternative. 

[NorthenerON]

20 hours ago, Merc14 said:

Ok here are balloons filled with just hydrogen, please tell me the big difference you see and then tell me how a series of balloons enclosed in a big bag would stop  catastrophic failure.

There is a big difference in the two videos all you have to do is listen. The first was a cracking explosion, the second was more of a woof explosion. As for the bladders inside the big bag, my understanding was that they were never very close together so that if one exploded they all wouldn't. Albeit this might not be the same in all blimps. 

16 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

Once those vids get out, you won't be able to get any passengers to come near a Hydrogen ship, no matter what precautions you took. It just ain't gonna happen.

Sorry to say but I don't agree AnchorSteam. We see cars explode, still drive, planes crash or explode, still fly.

16 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

See? This is why I said you could use it, but you will only be able to get away with that on Cargo ships.

I won't be swayed saying it could be used for passenger blimps, as for cargo ships this would be great. Imagine if ran proper and not getting greedy shipping rates would go down greatly. Considering the initial build and maintenance, the ship basically runs for free.

Here's some videos on the use of hydrogen, there's 11 in all starting at 14 and going to 24

 

[aztek]

there are many details involved,  long and short distance.

long distance,  it is not nearly as fast as planes, planes are more expensive, but when planes are used than all customers care is speed. blimp can't compete there.

ship are about 1\3 the speed of blimps, but they take a lot more cargo, which is shipped in containers now, empty 20 foot container weights 5000lb. most containers are 40ft. those are regular dry boxes,  than there are refrigerated containers, for perishable goods.  also comparing speeds only correct if both travel same path, but blimps have to account for weather, and go around storms on long trips, just like planes, but planes travel at 600mph, blimps at about 80. they are also a lot more affected by winds than planes

short distance even more issues, trucks travel at about same speed, bring good right to the door, blimps however do not, also many cities wont allow anything to fly over except for news\police helicopters, or planes at very high altitude, so it would have to drop off goods someplace outside the city, than loaded onto a truck. why not just use the truck from the start.

another issue is cost,  yes you can fly a blimp for basically free, except fuel, commercial insurance, licenses,  hangar fees... 

if you think from practical pow, blimps really do not offer anything attractive as shipping method.  sure they can be used a surveillance platform, or internet router, signal relay, may be there they can be used commercially,

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2017 by aztek

[AnchorSteam]

7 hours ago, aztek said:

there are many details involved,  long and short distance.

Yes, but here is the thing- there is nothing in between.

If you are shipping overseas, you can either fly a little at 600mph in a very expensive way, or...

You can ship it at 20mph cheap and in vast amounts. 

There is absolutely nothing in between.

 

For passenger flights, you are forgetting to factor in something; the TSA. What are they up to now, advising that you arrive 2 hours ahead of your actual Departure Time now? Yup, you have to bend over and spread 'em in so many ways for those knuckle-dragging thugs these days.... hope you enjoy it. 

[aztek]

7 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

 

There is absolutely nothing in between.

 

you are right there isn't,   prbly becuse there is no need. nor economically feasible way. 

fast shipping is done with plane, slow is done with ships, biggest blimp Hindenburg payload was 250 tonns, largest ship can take 16000 20foot containers, max allowed load for those 25tons, lets take average  of 18 tons,  multiply by 16000 we get 288000 tons.  

if anything i'd put my money on wig aka ground effect vehicles, they can do 300-500kmh, soviets worked a lot on them, google ekranoplan

Edited March 30, 2017 by aztek

[Merc14]

I believe the niche for this type of airship is remote sights like an oil rig or isolated town or oversized loads like wind turbine blades that are now delivered by truck or expensive helicopters trips. 

[AnchorSteam]

9 hours ago, Merc14 said:

I believe the niche for this type of airship is remote sights like an oil rig or isolated town or oversized loads like wind turbine blades that are now delivered by truck or expensive helicopters trips. 

I know, yeah, I know it.

But the idea of flying palaces or comfortable commuter platforms sure did seem like a sweet deal, didn't they?

[Merc14]

2 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

I know, yeah, I know it.

But the idea of flying palaces or comfortable commuter platforms sure did seem like a sweet deal, didn't they?

There may be a market for that as well and if there is then I am sure some company will test it.

[AnchorSteam]

Bumped

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

On 27/03/2017 at 10:19 PM, Thanato said:

But you don't need hydrogen. Hell the later Zeppelins were meant to run on helium but they couldn't get their hands on it, so back to hydrogen. So fill the ships with helium.

Except Helium is a rare resource, and it's dwindling quickly because it's used in high end electronics manufacturing. 

[glorybebe]

If there were extensive safe test runs on them, most people would be interested in going for a ride.  With technology the way it is today...I can see these becoming a fun and alternative way to travel.  They could use these and have cruises, stopping at different ports to let the passengers explore.

[The Silver Thong]

They did it 70 years ago