Religion

[Stubbly_Dooright]

7 hours ago, back to earth said:

 

Here; the 'Great Dividing Range' - the east coast .mountain/  range is close to the coast, the east wind blow in, clouds go up and dump rain and it runs off.  Aso there is a major fault and uplift that made the huge Dorrigo plateau, with steep plunging edges - hence many waterfalls.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterfall_Way

In the wet season it gets rad! 

 

 

 

Is it me, or are those angry falls spilling on over the highway?  

[Stubbly_Dooright]

7 hours ago, I hide behind words said:

Chicken and egg.

Do wars cause religion?

Go as far back as you can.

When we were monkeys. We had wars but no religions.

Which truly came first?

Now, there's a fascinating thought. (IMO)   

7 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

Leaders in wars certainly try to use religion, with success much of the time, but the religions pre-exist them, so cannot be said to be caused by them.

I think religion is a natural consequence of the widespread tendency in many people to invent explanations when the answers are either unwelcome or inconceivable.  People just hate saying, "I don't know."  It happens over several generations, though, so people don't really notice.

I would think it would be safely said, that most wars are started with a self-agenda goal. *shrugs*

7 hours ago, back to earth said:

There were eggs long before the chicken evolved and   'religion'  way before what we call 'warfare' . 

There ya go!    

7 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

Maybe so, maybe not.  That is all so far back in history that I think it foolish to make such dogmatic statements.  It is plain enough the religions cause enough wars now.

Well, it seems lately, for most areas today, wars seem to be over oil. But, I could be wrong. *shrugs*   

6 hours ago, I hide behind words said:

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/human_evolution/2012/10/chimpanzee_wars_can_primate_aggression_teach_us_about_human_aggression.html

Oh dear!  

4 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

I think there is little doubt religion is declining worldwide.  Even is Muslim worlds, when the conversation is private, you get remarks that clearly indicate the "Muslim" doesn't believe, though he doesn't dare say so out loud.  That too will pass (as it has in the Gulf States).

Here in Cambodia the number of monks has declined and there are calls to the public asking people to consider it.  Most here take the religion seriously enough -- for others. Of  course in Vietnam religion is officially a superstition, and Buddhist numbers are not available, but attendance at Roman Catholic and Caodai services has declined to about half what it was before th war.  (Caodai is, in my opinion, a dying religion -- when I go to a service the attendance seems to be people in their sixties or older, no one I would call young, but Vietnam is really a young nation). 

Atheism too, is dying in Vietnam and dead in the rest of Asia (except of course China about which I know nothing).  You don't get people telling you they are Atheist -- they are almost always "non-religious" or Buddhist (one can be a Buddhist just by saying so -- one need do nothing.  Party members in Vietnam of course are supposed to be atheists, and I'm sure on the papers they sign that is what they say, but the reality is a lot of them go to Buddhist ceremonies and most of the others avoid, whenever possible, Atheism lectures.  

So, is it all Apathiests now?  

 

 

[back to earth]

14 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

Well fish laid eggs long before there were dinosaurs,

There you go !  Plenty of eggs around before there chickens, so eggs came first . 

 

14 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

 

and I have no idea what laid the first egg, and reproduction of some sort had to be around from the beginning.

Maybe eggs are a version or development from single celled animals ?   They sorta look like a cell .   ?  

14 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

 

 I wonder what the point of all this is -- I suppose I should go back and look.  I suppose it was which came first, religion or warfare. I would vote for warfare -- if we call one tribe trying to wipe out another, "war."  If we just call it human territoriality, then I dunno.

They had  what they called 'war' here and it was not one tribe trying to wipe out the other. It was more of a ritualistic sorting out of issues .... matters of infractions over laws and rights .    Two long lines would face each other and it was one on one. Eventually one side would concede.  I have never heard of them 'massacring' one another . 

14 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

I don't think religion by itself is a cause of many if any wars.  Cultural differences, such as language, ways of burying the dead, attitudes about marriage, political structure, and beliefs about the otherworld are all part of the formula -- they are different and therefore evil and therefor must be eliminated.

Thats a good point as older cultures saw these things as part of life and the way things were ... not necessarily as 'religion'  which in some ways, can be seen as a modern concept. 

14 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

This is till the attitude of a lot of "conservatives" although they won't say so.

Nowadays, piracy (getting someone else's resources) is a lot of it.

Piracy and  'organised religion' ......   hmmmmmm .   two ways of getting resources  .

[back to earth]

8 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Is it me, or are those angry falls spilling on over the highway?  

On the road and down it .    

[Stubbly_Dooright]

13 hours ago, back to earth said:

On the road and down it .    

 EGADS!!!!  

[Speck in the Ether]

On 5/4/2017 at 6:37 PM, I hide behind words said:

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/science/head-quarters/2015/jan/16/declinism-is-the-world-actually-getting-worse

 

TED Talks - Steven Pinker

Indeed...Our lives are not so much threatened as is our Perception. T.E.D. is a wonderful channel lots of good knowledge and open minds there.  

[Skirnum]

Human thought is the cause of all wars, and Mammon is the driving force. Mammon is motivation. Motivation is ideas in our heads. The ideas create this world as we know it. The result appears on TV. We can change this if we want to.

[GoldenWolf]

4 hours ago, Skirnum said:

Human thought is the cause of all wars, and Mammon is the driving force. Mammon is motivation. Motivation is ideas in our heads. The ideas create this world as we know it. The result appears on TV. We can change this if we want to.

Mammon is not the driving force behind wars, the driving force is unhealthy narcissists.

Edited May 27, 2017 by Mystic Crusader

[GlitterRose]

On 3/19/2017 at 9:51 AM, StarMountainKid said:

A religion that begets division, hatred, and conflict is not religion.

Well...that's like...all of them. 

I wish people would be spiritual and just let that whole religion thing go. Dogma isn't good for people. 

[GlitterRose]

7 minutes ago, Mystic Crusader said:

Mammon is not the driving force behind wars, the driving force is unhealthy narcissists.

People are greedy on their own. They don't need any help.

[Skirnum]

20 hours ago, Mystic Crusader said:

Mammon is not the driving force behind wars, the driving force is unhealthy narcissists.

What is Mammon? Is it not at cow of gold? Mammon is greed I think. Mammon is the motivation without spirit. Mammon is the fire of thought, the force this world is mounted on. The system we believe in, a system founded on belief and greed, without  the present. Not knowledge and wisdom. If peace and wisdom is a sea, we don’t know it. We relate to guilt, to cause and effect. No spirit, no presents, no peace, no wisdom. The sea of ignorance and its Capitan we honor I think… Founder of wars.

Edited May 27, 2017 by Skirnum

[GoldenWolf]

3 minutes ago, Skirnum said:

What is Mammon? Is it not at cow of gold? Mammon is greed I think. Mammon is the motivation without spirit. Mammon is the fire of thought, the force this world is mounted on. The system we believe in, a system founded on belief and greed. Not knowledge and wisdom. If peace and wisdom is a sea, we don’t know it. We relate to guilt, to cause and effect. No spirit, no presents, no peace, no wisdom. The sea of ignorance and its Capitan we honor. I think hehe… Founder of wars.

 

Again, it is an unhealthy narcissist:

 

[Skirnum]

21 minutes ago, Mystic Crusader said:

Again, it is an unhealthy narcissist:

You don`t have to repeat me, over and over... hehe.

[jimrich]

Quote

Religion.....Is it the cause of all wars ?

IMO, the ego or sense of a separate self is the cause of nearly all conflicts or struggles when your ego goes up against my ego for whatever reason or need it/we have.  Once a 'me' or ego is created, in early childhood for most folks, the competion and/or "war" begins as you and I struggle over whatever.  I can imagine a happy, non-violent, peaceful, kind and friendly ego but not in our current world set-ups.  Such a benevolent ego/person would not last very long in "normal" human cultures and would have to be placed in a fortified sanctuary just to survive. 

The flip side is that nothing is wrong and all's well from the Divine perspective so..............on with the show!  LOL, it's just a game.....after-all!

[Mr Walker]

8 hours ago, jimrich said:

IMO, the ego or sense of a separate self is the cause of nearly all conflicts or struggles when your ego goes up against my ego for whatever reason or need it/we have.  Once a 'me' or ego is created, in early childhood for most folks, the competion and/or "war" begins as you and I struggle over whatever.  I can imagine a happy, non-violent, peaceful, kind and friendly ego but not in our current world set-ups.  Such a benevolent ego/person would not last very long in "normal" human cultures and would have to be placed in a fortified sanctuary just to survive. 

The flip side is that nothing is wrong and all's well from the Divine perspective so..............on with the show!  LOL, it's just a game.....after-all!

not quite  You could live in a community like my own. It is not perfect or totally ego free but it is  ; happy, non violent,  peaceful, kind and friendly.   I think that is because most of us  have well adjusted egos  which are happy  non violent peaceful  kind and friendly  as well as cooperative and with a sense of community .  A lot of the natural competitiveness of locals is played out on the sports fields.

The last reported "serious"  crime according to govt data was a car theft back in 2003  There have been  a total of 4 cars stolen since computerised records began in  the 1990s  All were stolen by non locals    There have been no rapes, no  homicides,, no serious assaults,  no robberies. A few minor assaults and cases of trespass.  

The highest numbers have been in larceny  about 8 cases a year, (which would include shoplifting by young people)  and a few traffic violations each year, including driving an unregistered vehicle. , one case of dangerous driving and about 3 per year for drunk  driving.  No drug offences  involving sale, distribution or manufacture, and  less than one case of possession per year. And yes we do have a full time resident police officer. 

 I am not going to tell you where we live, because otherwise everyone would want to come and live here.    

Edited June 6, 2017 by Mr Walker

[jmccr8]

5 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

not quite  You could live in a community like my own. It is not perfect or totally ego free but it is  ; happy, non violent,  peaceful, kind and friendly.   I think that is because most of us  have well adjusted egos  which are happy  non violent peaceful  kind and friendly  as well as cooperative and with a sense of community .  A lot of the natural competitiveness of locals is played out on the sports fields.

The last reported "serious"  crime according to govt data was a car theft back in 2003  There have been  a total of 4 cars stolen since computerised records began in  the 1990s  All were stolen by non locals    There have been no rapes, no  homicides,, no serious assaults,  no robberies. A few minor assaults and cases of trespass.  

The highest numbers have been in larceny  about 8 cases a year, (which would include shoplifting by young people)  and a few traffic violations each year, including driving an unregistered vehicle. , one case of dangerous driving and about 3 per year for drunk  driving.  No drug offences  involving sale, distribution or manufacture, and  less than one case of possession per year. And yes we do have a full time resident police officer. 

 I am not going to tell you where we live, because otherwise everyone would want to come and live here.    

Gee, are you Andy and do you live in Mayberry?  We got more than that going on before I finish my first coffee

[jimrich]

5 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

not quite  You could live in a community like my own. It is not perfect or totally ego free but it is  ; happy, non violent,  peaceful, kind and friendly.

REALLY???  (see below!)

I think that is because most of us  have well adjusted egos  which are happy  non violent peaceful  kind and friendly  as well as cooperative and with a sense of community .  A lot of the natural competitiveness of locals is played out on the sports fields.

Friendly, huh!  

LOL I'm guessing that in many other areas where the ego pops up such as in: gossip, judgements, fear, suspicion, and non-acceptance of "strangers" (see below), etc.

The highest numbers have been in larceny  about 8 cases a year, (which would include shoplifting by young people)

.......Shoplifting is evidence of a damaged ego which usually begins with inadequate parenting and is an ego problem. 

 and a few traffic violations each year, including driving an unregistered vehicle. , one case of dangerous driving and about 3 per year for drunk  driving.

That seems like an ego problem to me.  Healthy egos do not do such stuff.

 No drug offences  involving sale, distribution or manufacture, and  less than one case of possession per year.

There's the sick ego again!

And yes we do have a full time resident police officer. 

WHY?

 I am not going to tell you where we live, because otherwise everyone would want to come and live here.    

LOL, that isn't very FRIENDLY!  It sounds like an ego issue to me = keep out all the other UNWANTED egos!   Not to worry, I won't invade your town with my unacceptable ego!

 

[Mr Walker]

17 hours ago, jimrich said:

 

LOL I SAID it wasn't perfect or ego free.

Still, try finding similar figures for a similar pop anywhere in the word   The Larceny actually was mostly from cars which are left, here, with doors and windows open .  But larceny has many causes and its a bit simplistic to attach it to ego  it can be greed need or opportunity driven  very friendly We first moved here a couple of years ago and EVERYONE  says hello the shops cooperate rather than compete and even the sporting rivalry is friendly if intense  The young are unfailingly polite hard working and generally honest   

I haven't encountered any of the negatives you mention but the because i don't gossip, put others down, or judge them  i dont hear much of that from anyone  The chemist and his family are very dark skinned nigerians, one doctor is asian.  Their families and kids are totally accepted integrated  into the community respected and loved .  One of our neighbours families is aboriginal.   so while there is not the range or numbers of races here as in some parts of australia they are well accepted.

 People are just kind and generous  The baker gives us free food and, at the end of each day,  donates all his left over stock to the women's shelter in the local city down the highway. If you don't have money you can still get anything and pay for it when you do.  Neighbours around the block swap produce from their gardens  and fruit trees. 

LOL, one case of possession among 4000 residents, with no sale manufacture or distribution of ANY illegal drugs, and you  STILL perceive an ego problem?    

Oh the policeman and his family love it here so much they refuse to move   But  seriously the reason they are kept here (  apart from the political problem with removing local police)  probably is our location on a main highway and most of his work is traffic patrol on that and two other major highways .  He has a total patrol length of  several hundred miles of quite heavily travelled main transport corridors .  

Look mate, if it was just you and me, i could tell you but, let the secret get out, and we would be overrun by millions We bought our solid (walls are over a foot thick solid concrete with rendered finishes  )  art deco,  4 bedroom home, on 1600 square metres of land for  $225000  It had been extensively renovated,  with all mod cons, and new high colorbond  fencing and includes a solid garage about 30 foot by 40 foot with a concrete floor.   You can buy prefab  houses here for around  $100000, or rent them for  a couple of hundred a week.

We are next to a  large ( about 5 acres ) ground containing a swimming pool and multiple sporting complex (  football, tennis, bowls,  cricket,   basketball, and netball, croquet,  PLUS a community recreation centre for all sorts of indoor sports AND a new gymnastics and calisthenics club room.  Yet, due to a high fence provided by council, plus our own fencing, we dont hear anything except on about 3 days a year when schools hold swimming carnivals .    Lastly  we are within walking distance of all facilities, and the town  has at least one of everything a civilized gent.  requires in life, .      

 

Edited June 7, 2017 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

18 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Gee, are you Andy and do you live in Mayberry?  We got more than that going on before I finish my first coffee

Feels like that somedays, but this has been a deliberate, planned and conscious effort to retire in place where we feel safe and comfortable (my wife is now 75)

Plus it is about 100000 cheaper for the same quality of  house here, than in any of the nearby coastal communities   That meant an extra 100000 in super/savings which let us live with just a little more freedom than as pensioners ( we are both qualified for a full pension, and my wife gets one, but i've decided not to take mine until i need to,  as i have a good superannuation policy.) None the less all our medical and associated costs are either free (doctors hospitals etc)  or nearly so.  (Medicines,  aids like shower chairs or safety rails,    home help, domiciliary care, etc. cost  about 5-10% of the full cost for others.  

While the town is not wealthy, and thus does not have all concrete or paved footpaths/sidewalks,  like some of its neighbours, it is kept neat and tidy, with all public lawns grass etc., mowed regularly, and all trees, branches, etc., kept neat and safe, and removed or burned rather than left on the ground .  The toilets playgrounds and parks are all well cared for and maintained   All rubbish is removed promptly and regularly.  There is NO litter. There is not ONE example of graffiti  in the  town, except on the trains which pass through.

When you go to the public library you are given an EXCELLENT free cup of coffee, and a chocolate biscuit, and the bakery gives a free homemade biscuit with every cup of coffee.  ( sometimes, because i am special, i get two ) ; 

Mayberry ?

Might be even better.   

Edited June 7, 2017 by Mr Walker

[Stubbly_Dooright]

On 6/5/2017 at 11:19 PM, jimrich said:

IMO, the ego or sense of a separate self is the cause of nearly all conflicts or struggles when your ego goes up against my ego for whatever reason or need it/we have.  Once a 'me' or ego is created, in early childhood for most folks, the competion and/or "war" begins as you and I struggle over whatever.  I can imagine a happy, non-violent, peaceful, kind and friendly ego but not in our current world set-ups.  Such a benevolent ego/person would not last very long in "normal" human cultures and would have to be placed in a fortified sanctuary just to survive. 

The flip side is that nothing is wrong and all's well from the Divine perspective so..............on with the show!  LOL, it's just a game.....after-all!

I personally think this post is very informative. I do think the ego plays a big part. I don't think it's the main reason though. I think this thread has shed some light on the various reasons there are, and aren't. One thing I know, it's just one thing why wars are started. 

20 hours ago, jimrich said:

.......Shoplifting is evidence of a damaged ego which usually begins with inadequate parenting and is an ego problem. 

Not to say I didn't enjoy your response to him, because I do and I kind of agree. Though, as a long time retail employee, I feel that it's more than just the ego for shoplifting. I'm not saying you're wrong, because no you're not, in my experience. I think there is lots of reasons. *shrugs* 

 

[jimrich]

4 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I personally think this post is very informative. I do think the ego plays a big part. I don't think it's the main reason though.

What is your opinion of the "main reason"? If you look closely at what the ego is an how it causes wars and other conflicts, it has to be obvious that unselfish, happy, comfortable, peaceful, respectful, pleasant and LOVING egos do not cause wars or make trouble whereas: greedy, fearful, angry, disturbed, unhappy, disrespectful and UNLOVING egos make literally all the trouble we can see around us.  Perhaps a starving ego might steal food to survive but would not steal for selfish or disrespectful reasons. 

I think this thread has shed some light on the various reasons there are, and aren't. One thing I know, it's just one thing why wars are started.

It's the basic reason! - to satisfy an egoic NEED in some individuals and corporations.

Not to say I didn't enjoy your response to him, because I do and I kind of agree. Though, as a long time retail employee, I feel that it's more than just the ego for shoplifting. I'm not saying you're wrong, because no you're not, in my experience. I think there is lots of reasons. *shrugs* 

Please post your "reasons" here. 

 

 

[jimrich]

On 3/19/2017 at 9:10 AM, Paul ! said:

As it seems religion is the main cause of hate and aggression in this conflicting world ,

Hate and aggression begins with a very insecure, angry, frightened and disturbed or selfish ego or personal self.  Folks lucky enough to be brought up with a healthy, loving and secure ego/self do not engage in hate, aggression or conflicts - even if a religion demands it.

Of course, it could also be said that conflicts are manifested by, for and of Divinity or God so, take your pick..... hate and aggression are just meant to be or they are an unfortunate by product of conditioning (and perhaps genetics) of the ego or personal self.  Suicide bombers are either disturbed egos or they are agents of Divinity just doing what has to be done!  Toss a coin on it!

[jimrich]

On 3/19/2017 at 9:24 AM, Ryu said:

Ah..I missed that part. My bad.

Anywhoo..I do not think religion really is the cause of all wars even though it is often used as an excuse for such, I think the main cause is greed, plain and simple.

OK, now what causes "greed"?  I say greed begins in early childhood when we are conditioned to be insecure and develop a greedy ego or insecure self so a disturbed or damaged ego is the cause of nearly every conflict including wars.  The ego or self could be suffering with genetic or natural flaws but basically it's a damaged ego that becomes needy and greedy leading to both Religions and wars.

If one country has something the other wants and is has opted not to sell or hand over their own resources then the other tries to take it by force either directly or over time by fomenting all manner of strife.

That's a consequence of a damaged or mentally ill ego that has to turn to violence to get what it wants in order to feel secure and happy.  A healthy ego would not use force to get anything from another (healthy) ego.  But it's also possible that these conflicts are meant to be for whatever purpose Divinity has for creating them.  It's just meant to be so just do the best you can.

In the end there is really no end to the possible causes of war, hate and other aggression. We allow it to happen even though we know better but I guess it is easier to kill others than to learn to co-exist and think of ways to make life better for the next generations.

I strongly disagree with "we allow it to happen" but, since there seems to be no practical way to improve the fearful, personal egos in the whole world, I guess we have to do the best we can and let Divinity or God do whatever SHE wishes here.  Life and Death is in the hands of Divinity anyway, in my opinion.

 

[jimrich]

On 3/19/2017 at 9:42 AM, Paul ! said:

Education is key also

What kind of "education"?  I was taught all about fighting, hating, disrespecting, taking, and many other unfriendly and offensive ways to deal with others so I had a pretty messed up ego and would have made a terrific warrior or suicide bomber.   Then, in psychotherapy, I was taught about love, honesty, respect, dignity, honor, friendship, peace, kindness, etc. which turned my very damaged ego back into a loving and respecting me or self.  I see all of these fighters and killers as damaged egos, just like I was taught to be, but I have no idea how to turn them around to become loving and peaceful egos now that the damage has been done.  Education only works when someone WANTS to learn things like: love, peace, friendship, cooperation, kindness, etc and I doubt that very many warriors and killers are interested in that.  A healthy education would have to start in early childhood but most kids are NOT given a healthy education since most parents are already mentally damaged so they cannot teach their kids about love, respect, friendship and peace.  Mine certainly could not!

[jimrich]

On 3/19/2017 at 11:45 AM, Paul ! said:

I agree u with u with the upmost why do we as a species have to be at conflict over color beliefs and a non willing to engage with ppl we don't even try to understand 

It's not about "species", it's about damaged or warped egos/selves.   We start off pretty good but then our parents and others CONDITION us to become hostile, fearful, angry, mean, selfish, unloving, violent, etc. EGOS.   From there, we can do all kinds of harm while still believing we are "good people".