Opening gambits in EU / UK exit negotiations;

[Black Monk]

22 hours ago, stevewinn said:

I dont watch QT anymore. but my mum asked if i seen the man on it last night - with the power of the internet i have know seen the clip.

Is he and the audience representative of the feelings held. If they are and its country wide this political class are in trouble. 

 

I watched that episode. It has to be left to Northerners to say it as it is and stick it to the Remoan politicians.

By the way, that QT episode - which came from Barnsley - was the last one in which viewers were able to send comments in via texts on the BBC Red Button, which they have been able to do since 1999. Seems like another way to silence voters. Reading the live texts was one of the joys of watching QT.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Black Monk

[stevewinn]

15 minutes ago, Black Monk said:

I watched that episode. It has to be left to Northerners to say it as it is and stick it to the Remoan politicians.

By the way, that QT episode - which came from Barnsley - was the last one in which viewers were able to send comments in via texts on the BBC Red Button, which they have been able to do since 1999. Seems like another way to silence voters. Reading the live texts was one of the joys of watching QT.

I use to read the texts myself but i haven't watched the show for a good while. its reach or audience is pretty poor with viewing figures of less than 3million. These days i'd rather listen to Andrew Neil, and 'This Week' which follows QT.

[RAyMO]

19 hours ago, Black Monk said:

I think the vote should be taken again.

since you suggest that:

Britons now back Remain over Leave by 10 points, exclusive poll shows http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-latest-poll-remain-ten-points-leave-bmg-a8114406.html

“Our polling suggests that about a year ago, those who did not vote in the referendum were broadly split, but today’s poll shows that they are now overwhelmingly in favour of remaining in the EU, by a margin of more than four to one.”

There will NOT be a second referendum I know that, unless the Tory party implodes and we have a general election with one of the parties explicitly calling for same.

However, when considering the degree of separation from Europe perhaps we should be cognisant of the changing attitudes of the people, 

"Polling since this time last year appears to demonstrate a clear trend; Leave enjoyed a lead last December which gradually shrank, before turning into a lead for Remain in the month of the general election, that has since grown."

Interestingly - those who voted leave are not changing their mind in any great number - so those that say this based, on empirical evidence are correct - the outcome of another referendum would be totally dependent on who votes.

Leaving the EU will satisfy the moral requirement of the 2016 referendum, maintaining a model as close to as is, will possibly, possibly better reflect the views of the majority as we enter 2018.

Edited December 17, 2017 by RAyMO

[Space Commander Travis]

Is than an exclusive poll by the Independent? I think you have to bear in mind that the Independent is not free of bias. 

It comes as leading political figures write in The Independent tomorrow about whether the country needs a further referendum to decide on Brexit, once terms of departure are known.

Michael Heseltine, Peter Mandelson, Gina Miller and Vince Cable call for a rethink, 

 It'd be hard to think of a list of more popular figures. Only one missing is Mr. Maldeson's former much-loved boss. 

[RAyMO]

3 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

I think you have to bear in mind that the Independent is not free of bias

I totally accept that, lets see what other polls bring forward.

ETA : I also recognise that I and most others in this debate, are not free of bias either.

Edited December 17, 2017 by RAyMO

[Setton]

20 hours ago, Black Monk said:

Congrats. You're only about 5 days behind the conversation. That doesn't make the referendum legally binding. It means the government will try to implement the result. MPs of any party are not legally compelled to vote the way the government dictates. And since May threw away her majority, there's even less of a government to 'implement what you decide'. 

Again, in our country, parliament is sovereign, not the government and certainly not the prime minister. When they had a decent majority they could say they would implement what the majority of people voted for. Now they can't make any such promises. 

[stevewinn]

 

48 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

I totally accept that, lets see what other polls bring forward.

ETA : I also recognise that I and most others in this debate, are not free of bias either.

Exclusive survey for the Independent, Shock horror polling company tells their customer what they want to hear. whatever next. 

There is no going back Brexit is happening. Its time suck it up, wipe away the tears and put away the titty lip.

serious question, these people who are unable to accept the result, are they same people who came last in school sports day but was told they were still winners as not to upset them or scar them for life? and now as adults they are looking for that authoritative figure to tell them they are still winners.

 

Edited December 17, 2017 by stevewinn

[RAyMO]

 

21 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

There is no going back Brexit is happening. Its time suck it up, wipe away the tears and put away the titty lip.

serious question, these people who are unable to accept the result, are they same people who came last in school sports day but was told they where still winners as not to upset them or scar them for life? and now as adults they are looking for that authoritative figure to tell them they are still winners.

Well what can you say. As for tears no my friend no. I was telling everybody that would listen to me to vote leave.

But my reasons for doing so were the polar opposite of yours. Good luck with Brexit - you will need it.

Edited December 17, 2017 by RAyMO

[stevewinn]

5 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

 

Well what can you say. As for tears no my friend no. I was telling everybody that would listen to me to vote leave.

But my reasons for doing so where the polar opposite of yours. Good luck with Brexit - you will need it.

Let your advance worrying become advance thinking and planning.

 

[Black Monk]

5 hours ago, RAyMO said:

since you suggest that:

Britons now back Remain over Leave by 10 points, exclusive poll shows http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-latest-poll-remain-ten-points-leave-bmg-a8114406.html

“Our polling suggests that about a year ago, those who did not vote in the referendum were broadly split, but today’s poll shows that they are now overwhelmingly in favour of remaining in the EU, by a margin of more than four to one.”

There will NOT be a second referendum I know that, unless the Tory party implodes and we have a general election with one of the parties explicitly calling for same.

However, when considering the degree of separation from Europe perhaps we should be cognisant of the changing attitudes of the people, 

"Polling since this time last year appears to demonstrate a clear trend; Leave enjoyed a lead last December which gradually shrank, before turning into a lead for Remain in the month of the general election, that has since grown."

Interestingly - those who voted leave are not changing their mind in any great number - so those that say this based, on empirical evidence are correct - the outcome of another referendum would be totally dependent on who votes.

Leaving the EU will satisfy the moral requirement of the 2016 referendum, maintaining a model as close to as is, will possibly, possibly better reflect the views of the majority as we enter 2018.

Do you really still believe polls, especially ones shown in a Remoan newspaper?

Of course, I remember the polls showing Remoan in the lead just days before the referendum and for weeks beforehand, with the Remoaners cockily predicting a certain, easy win. They lost.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Black Monk

[Black Monk]

4 hours ago, Setton said:

Congrats. You're only about 5 days behind the conversation. That doesn't make the referendum legally binding. It means the government will try to implement the result. MPs of any party are not legally compelled to vote the way the government dictates. And since May threw away her majority, there's even less of a government to 'implement what you decide'. 

Again, in our country, parliament is sovereign, not the government and certainly not the prime minister. When they had a decent majority they could say they would implement what the majority of people voted for. Now they can't make any such promises. 

No. It means the government WILL implement the result, as promised.

And I can't think of anything more hypocritical than Remoaners suddenly announcing the virtues of a sovereign British parliament now that it suits them to do so when they have spent the last forty-odd years allowing Brussels to erode the sovereignty of the British parliament.

Anyway, I'm one of those who believe the British people, not parliament, are sovereign - and the British people want the government to hurry up and extricate us from the EU cesspit, as they voted to do.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Black Monk

[Setton]

48 minutes ago, Black Monk said:

No. It means the government WILL implement the result, as promised.

And I can't think of anything more hypocritical than Remoaners suddenly announcing the virtues of a sovereign British parliament now that it suits them to do so when they have spent the last forty-odd years allowing Brussels to erode the sovereignty of the British parliament.

Anyway, I'm one of those who believe the British people, not parliament, are sovereign - and the British people want the government to hurry up and extricate us from the EU cesspit, as they voted to do.

That's nice but what you believe has no bearing on reality. Parliament is sovereign, whether you like it or not. And the government can't promise to do anything. They can only promise to try to do things. If their MPs rebel, or they don't have a majority, nothing they can do about it. 

At least 48% of the British people don't want that at all. Consider that in your calculations. 

The middle paragraph is drivel and, again, 5 days behind the conversation. Congrats again, please read. 

[Black Monk]

1 hour ago, Setton said:

 Parliament is sovereign, whether you like it or not.

At the moment, its sovereignty is very much weakened thanks to being in the EU for 40-odd years - and you Remoaners have allowed it to happen.

And I'll repeat: I'm of the opinion that it is the British people who are sovereign, not parliament.

Quote

At least 48% of the British people don't want that at all. Consider that in your calculations. 

Well, the so-called "48%" don't exist. It's yet another Remoan delusion (and, even if they did exist, they LOST the referendum, and so have to accept the new reality). The people who DO matter here are the 69% - the people who believe the government has a duty to extricate Britain from the EU.

Quote

The middle paragraph is drivel .

No, it isn't. It's true. I can't think of anything more hypocritical than Remoaners suddenly announcing the virtues of a sovereign British parliament now that it suits them to do so when they have spent the last forty-odd years allowing Brussels to erode the sovereignty of the British parliament.

[Setton]

1 hour ago, Black Monk said:

At the moment, its sovereignty is very much weakened thanks to being in the EU for 40-odd years - and you Remoaners have allowed it to happen.

And I'll repeat: I'm of the opinion that it is the British people who are sovereign, not parliament.

Well, the so-called "48%" don't exist. It's yet another Remoan delusion (and, even if they did exist, they LOST the referendum, and so have to accept the new reality). The people who DO matter here are the 69% - the people who believe the government has a duty to extricate Britain from the EU.

No, it isn't. It's true. I can't think of anything more hypocritical than Remoaners suddenly announcing the virtues of a sovereign British parliament now that it suits them to do so when they have spent the last forty-odd years allowing Brussels to erode the sovereignty of the British parliament.

And I'll repeat, whatever you think is utterly irrelevant to how our democracy works. You can believe it's run by little pixies underground if you like but you won't find judges sticking their heads under trees to ask what the law is. 

I can't think of anything more hypocritical than a Leaver complaining that parliament had a vote on something that didn't go your way. I thought you wanted to 'take back control'? Guess what - this is what that will look like in the future. 

Not happy with that? Perhaps you should have better informed yourself about how our democracy works before the referendum. Now, tough. You voted for it, you deal with the consequences. 

[stevewinn]

1 hour ago, Black Monk said:

At the moment, its sovereignty is very much weakened thanks to being in the EU for 40-odd years - and you Remoaners have allowed it to happen.

And I'll repeat: I'm of the opinion that it is the British people who are sovereign, not parliament.

Well, the so-called "48%" don't exist. It's yet another Remoan delusion (and, even if they did exist, they LOST the referendum, and so have to accept the new reality). The people who DO matter here are the 69% - the people who believe the government has a duty to extricate Britain from the EU.

No, it isn't. It's true. I can't think of anything more hypocritical than Remoaners suddenly announcing the virtues of a sovereign British parliament now that it suits them to do so when they have spent the last forty-odd years allowing Brussels to erode the sovereignty of the British parliament.

Well said Black Monk, @Setton has the bit between his teeth with this Parliament is Sovereign line. But as you've rightly pointed out these remoaners where was they when Parliament was rubber stamping EU laws rules and regulations, over 12,000 alone without a single debate or vote.

In truth, it should be called popular sovereignty. If Parliament can make and unmake laws, raise taxes and spend them without interference from the EU or judges, then the people are sovereign, because they can dismiss the Parliament in elections and influence it between elections through the pressure of public opinion.

So Brexiteers are the true champions of Sovereignty and many can point to a 40+ year struggle for the UK to regain full sovereignty Not like the remoaners who only got interested a fortnight ago.

Edited December 17, 2017 by stevewinn

[Black Monk]

30 minutes ago, Setton said:

And I'll repeat, whatever you think is utterly irrelevant to how our democracy works. You can believe it's run by little pixies underground if you like but you won't find judges sticking their heads under trees to ask what the law is. 

I can't think of anything more hypocritical than a Leaver complaining that parliament had a vote on something that didn't go your way. I thought you wanted to 'take back control'? Guess what - this is what that will look like in the future. 

Not happy with that? Perhaps you should have better informed yourself about how our democracy works before the referendum. Now, tough. You voted for it, you deal with the consequences. 

You're just proving my point. A Remoaner who suddenly is so interested in the sovereignty of parliament now that it suits you even though you Remoaners have allowed Brussels to erode the sovereignty of the British parliament for decades.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Black Monk

[Setton]

1 hour ago, Black Monk said:

You're just proving my point. A Remoaner who suddenly is so interested in the sovereignty of parliament now that it suits you even though you Remoaners have allowed Brussels to erode the sovereignty of the British parliament for decades.

As opposed to a Leaver who is suddenly so against Parliamentary sovereignty after years of banging on about how we need to 'take back control'. 

You got it. Buyer's remorse? 

[Space Commander Travis]

9 hours ago, stevewinn said:

Let your advance worrying become advance thinking and planning.

 

There are no problems, there are just challenges!

[Space Commander Travis]

5 hours ago, Setton said:

And the government can't promise to do anything. They can only promise to try to do things.

They always miss that bit out of their manifestos, don't they. Handy cop-out, though. Before the election: "We will do this, that and the other." Afterwards: "We only said that we'd try to". 

[keithisco]

33 minutes ago, Setton said:

As opposed to a Leaver who is suddenly so against Parliamentary sovereignty after years of banging on about how we need to 'take back control'. 

You got it. Buyer's remorse? 

I think that somewhere you have missed the point. Direct Democracy holds greater weight than Parliamentary Sovereignty.(Representative Democracy) i.e. a referendum where all sides say they will enact the result of said referendum, which ALL sides agreed would happen, then Parliamentary Sovereignty is bound to enact that result. Why is that? Because any instrument that invokes Direct Democracy with the proviso that such an action is determined only by a 50%+ 1 vote (as David Cameron and the official leaflet from the Government stated) is actually the ultimate expression of Democracy. The vote in effect ensured that the UK would Leave the EU

The UK is signatory to the Lisbon Treaty ( which is registered at the U.N.) which means that in International Law we (the UK) and the other authors (EU States) are required to abide by its contents.

Article 50 States quite clearly that any State so invoking Art 50 shall have left the EU after 2 years (may be extended by unanimous agreement). The EU is currently in breach of Art 50 by refusing to take into consideration future trading arrangements during this first stage... a spiteful person might consider referring this breach of the Treaty to the ECJ - how about Gina Miller takes up this fight, after all she only wants the Legality of leaving to prevail [sic] 

Edited December 17, 2017 by keithisco
Clarification of Parliamentary Sovereignty

[keithisco]

13 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

There are no problems, there are just challenges!

There are no challenges...there are just opportunities (MBA cap on )

[Setton]

2 hours ago, keithisco said:

I think that somewhere you have missed the point. Direct Democracy holds greater weight than Parliamentary Sovereignty.(Representative Democracy) i.e. a referendum where all sides say they will enact the result of said referendum, which ALL sides agreed would happen, then Parliamentary Sovereignty is bound to enact that result. Why is that? Because any instrument that invokes Direct Democracy with the proviso that such an action is determined only by a 50%+ 1 vote (as David Cameron and the official leaflet from the Government stated) is actually the ultimate expression of Democracy. The vote in effect ensured that the UK would Leave the EU

The UK is signatory to the Lisbon Treaty ( which is registered at the U.N.) which means that in International Law we (the UK) and the other authors (EU States) are required to abide by its contents.

Article 50 States quite clearly that any State so invoking Art 50 shall have left the EU after 2 years (may be extended by unanimous agreement). The EU is currently in breach of Art 50 by refusing to take into consideration future trading arrangements during this first stage... a spiteful person might consider referring this breach of the Treaty to the ECJ - how about Gina Miller takes up this fight, after all she only wants the Legality of leaving to prevail [sic] 

All you're saying is stuff that has already been covered. Yes, the government said it would implement what people voted for. People voted to leave so that is what the government will work to do. If we hadn't had a general election, that's what would happen. But we did and people elected MPs (the basis of our representative democracy) based in part on their approach to brexit. Now those MPs can either vote as their manifesto said or not and risk the repercussions of the electorate next time. But the government, especially a minority government can't simply compel any MPs to vote the way they want them to. 

I'm curious, if you were all so in favour of taking back control, so in favour of parliamentary sovereignty, and so concerned with democracy being upheld, why are you all so upset that Parliament will get to vote on the final deal? Isn't that the representative democracy you were so keen to see again? Surely you didn't vote to leave so the government can change laws and treaties unchecked and unchallenged? That's a dictatorship, not democracy. I can't believe intelligent people like you and Steve want that. So what is the problem? 

I think the answer is simple. None of us really likes a representative democracy. Because none of us agrees with any of the candidates on every issue. So we end up voting for the best of what's offered. We like parliamentary sovereignty when it works in our favour. We don't like it when it goes against us. But that's the system we have. 

[Setton]

2 hours ago, keithisco said:

I think that somewhere you have missed the point. Direct Democracy holds greater weight than Parliamentary Sovereignty.(Representative Democracy) i.e. a referendum where all sides say they will enact the result of said referendum, which ALL sides agreed would happen, then Parliamentary Sovereignty is bound to enact that result. Why is that? Because any instrument that invokes Direct Democracy with the proviso that such an action is determined only by a 50%+ 1 vote (as David Cameron and the official leaflet from the Government stated) is actually the ultimate expression of Democracy. The vote in effect ensured that the UK would Leave the EU

The UK is signatory to the Lisbon Treaty ( which is registered at the U.N.) which means that in International Law we (the UK) and the other authors (EU States) are required to abide by its contents.

Article 50 States quite clearly that any State so invoking Art 50 shall have left the EU after 2 years (may be extended by unanimous agreement). The EU is currently in breach of Art 50 by refusing to take into consideration future trading arrangements during this first stage... a spiteful person might consider referring this breach of the Treaty to the ECJ - how about Gina Miller takes up this fight, after all she only wants the Legality of leaving to prevail [sic] 

Just an additional thought, you seem to be under the impression I think Parliamentary sovereignty can overturn brexit. That's not what we're talking about. The UK is leaving. That's 2hat happens because of the whole direct democracy trumps representative thing. But since there was no referendum on how we leave, what laws we keep, what we get rid of, or how transparent the process is, parliament will decide these things. As it has done here. 

[Ozymandias]

On 16/12/2017 at 1:22 PM, Black Monk said:

But considering that it was only a narrow victory for the Remoaners - 309-305 - I think the vote should be taken again.

Yes. Considering that the Brexit Referendum was only a narrow victory - 52% to 48% - I think the vote should be taken again.

Especially since the British public have had the benefit of a more informed debate on the issue since 2016. How utterly stupid it is to commit future generations of the UK to the consequences of a knee-jerk protest vote taken by the disaffected rather than the well-informed.

If you are going to abide by the 'will of the people', do it when you know that it is well-informed and can be relied on with pride, not when led by nationalist opportunists fanning xenophobic populism. Where are your leaders? It is the man-in-the-street populist, whose uncritical opinion is formed by social media, who drives the Brexit agenda. And he, and his, will pay the piper in the end. It is so sad to watch this train crash unfold in slow motion. And the privileged ones who promote and engineer it - the hypocritical and career politicians like Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson, Gove, Fox and Reese-Mogg - ride off into the sunset with their fat EU and Westminster pensions, having sucked the very life out of the gullible UK voter and his posterity with their self-serving cant.

Who wins? I'll let you guess. Not the man-in-the-street, for sure. 

 

[stevewinn]

11 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

Yes. Considering that the Brexit Referendum was only a narrow victory - 52% to 48% - I think the vote should be taken again.

Especially since the British public have had the benefit of a more informed debate on the issue since 2016. How utterly stupid it is to commit future generations of the UK to the consequences of a knee-jerk protest vote taken by the disaffected rather than the well-informed.

If you are going to abide by the 'will of the people', do it when you know that it is well-informed and can be relied on with pride, not when led by nationalist opportunists fanning xenophobic populism. Where are your leaders? It is the man-in-the-street populist, whose uncritical opinion is formed by social media, who drives the Brexit agenda. And he, and his, will pay the piper in the end. It is so sad to watch this train crash unfold in slow motion. And the privileged ones who promote and engineer it - the hypocritical and career politicians like Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson, Gove, Fox and Reese-Mogg - ride off into the sunset with their fat EU and Westminster pensions, having sucked the very life out of the gullible UK voter and his posterity with their self-serving cant.

Who wins? I'll let you guess. Not the man-in-the-street, for sure. 

 

What evidence do you have that voters were not well informed? In your world you must think its beyond people to educate themselves on a subject without being fed the information. 

It reminds me of the question time audience when a young girl (remainer) asked the panel. I wasn't told enough, I wasn't informed and Johnny Mercer MP replied Democracy is a process we all take part in, it's not something that is done to us by the Govt. if your just going to sit there and wait then your going to be ill-informed.

Also What happens if we hold a second referendum and after being 'well informed' the Leave side still win does that somehow change the process of how the UK leaves the EU? Does all the doom and gloom the remainers predicted go away? will the EU give us a better deal? No? so what's the point of a second referendum. oh, i see you think the Leave side will lose.

You had your chance remainers, hold your hands up you had your once in a generation chance and you blew it and even though you had the full weight of the state and institutions behind you, you still lost the day. you'd think all these wel -informed Remainers could have educated the rest of the population, via friends family etc... or maybe they were fighting a loosing battle, because their words just wont wash with the public no more, the Remainers couldn't tell us all the goodies the EU had to offer because they knew it wouldnt wash, so all they had left was fear, fear, fear, fear we wouldn't have any food, fear we wouldn't have any jobs fear the economy would go into recession.

And here they are as the well educated, the well informed amongst us and yet they still cant work out or accept how they lost. instead of pointing the finger and going, Him, Racist. Her Xenophobic. Them stupid. -  look in the mirror. 

Edited December 18, 2017 by stevewinn