Opening gambits in EU / UK exit negotiations;

[Space Commander Travis]

16 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

Yes. Considering that the Brexit Referendum was only a narrow victory - 52% to 48% - I think the vote should be taken again.

Especially since the British public have had the benefit of a more informed debate on the issue since 2016. How utterly stupid it is to commit future generations of the UK to the consequences of a knee-jerk protest vote taken by the disaffected rather than the well-informed.

If you are going to abide by the 'will of the people', do it when you know that it is well-informed and can be relied on with pride, not when led by nationalist opportunists fanning xenophobic populism. Where are your leaders? It is the man-in-the-street populist, whose uncritical opinion is formed by social media, who drives the Brexit agenda. And he, and his, will pay the piper in the end. It is so sad to watch this train crash unfold in slow motion. And the privileged ones who promote and engineer it - the hypocritical and career politicians like Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson, Gove, Fox and Reese-Mogg - ride off into the sunset with their fat EU and Westminster pensions, having sucked the very life out of the gullible UK voter and his posterity with their self-serving cant.

Who wins? I'll let you guess. Not the man-in-the-street, for sure. 

 

You're back!  

[Space Commander Travis]

Hello everybody. Today I'm going to be sucking the very life out of the gullible UK voter and his posterity with my self-serving cant. I'll let you know how I get on.  

 

Edited December 18, 2017 by Manfred von Dreidecker

[stevewinn]

Update Statement from the Prime Minister. Statement on European Council.

http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/bee479d0-b616-4724-9bbe-487963d3df1d?in=15:30:00

[Grey Area]

On 30/03/2017 at 0:40 PM, FLOMBIE said:

Yes, they should. 

First: I don't agree with your assessment of the EU. It's not punishment, it's fulfilling current contracts. If you want to opt out of a contract, you need to negotiate the terms. No biggie.

 

The EU will be fine without Britain. Better with, but still fine without. 

What contracts are those?  This so called divorce bill is a mystery.

we don’t know what it is and the EU will not reveal its accounting.

the UK will honour its contracts, will pay all the dues that come with membership.  This strange figure is not contractual.

Do you really believe the UK has projects and contracts worth up to 100b on foreign soil?

[keithisco]

20 hours ago, Setton said:

All you're saying is stuff that has already been covered. Yes, the government said it would implement what people voted for. People voted to leave so that is what the government will work to do. If we hadn't had a general election, that's what would happen. But we did and people elected MPs (the basis of our representative democracy) based in part on their approach to brexit. Now those MPs can either vote as their manifesto said or not and risk the repercussions of the electorate next time. But the government, especially a minority government can't simply compel any MPs to vote the way they want them to. 

I'm curious, if you were all so in favour of taking back control, so in favour of parliamentary sovereignty, and so concerned with democracy being upheld, why are you all so upset that Parliament will get to vote on the final deal? Isn't that the representative democracy you were so keen to see again? Surely you didn't vote to leave so the government can change laws and treaties unchecked and unchallenged? That's a dictatorship, not democracy. I can't believe intelligent people like you and Steve want that. So what is the problem? 

I think the answer is simple. None of us really likes a representative democracy. Because none of us agrees with any of the candidates on every issue. So we end up voting for the best of what's offered. We like parliamentary sovereignty when it works in our favour. We don't like it when it goes against us. But that's the system we have. 

I voted on this basis:

1. No Single Market

2. No Customs Union

3. No Freedom of Movement

4. I accepted that I may well be a little poorer in the short-term, but its a price worth paying personally

5. I wanted March 30 2019 to be the very last day that the EU would hold sway over the UK

6. I did not want to be part of a federal Super-state

7. I did not want the UK to be part of an EU Army (Remain banged on that this would never happen, that was a lie)

8. I wanted our Fishing grounds returned to and administered by the UK and its devolved Parliaments

9. I wanted the UK to choose its Trading partners where deals could be made that were relevant to us (Olive and Citrus Fruits farmers are of no concern to me).

10. I wanted freedom for the UK to buy whatever it wanted to on the Global Market which will reduce a lot of prices for UK consumers and open up trade to a truly global customer base. (the UK was already trading more with the WTO nations than the EU, and by far, the largest amount of Financial Services are traded to 3rd nations (i.e. NOT the EU)

...I informed myself very deeply on every aspect of what the pro's and cons of EU membership were and for a long time fully supported it (as Stevewinn will attest to)  but the Eu began and continued to morph into all of those things that I did not want it to become.

Myself, and most Leavers that I know, would agree with me on the reasons outlined above, for their voting Leave. You are being far too simplistic by stating and re-stating ad nauseum that we only voted for a return to full Parliamentary Sovereignty-that was only part of the whole panoply of reasons

[Space Commander Travis]

Personally I'd go for #6 I think. And #8. I'm all for freedom of movement. But mainly because Herr (or is it Monsieur?) Juncker and his colleagues are such arrogant, pompous a**es. Much like FIFA or the Governing Body of any sport you care to name. 

Edited December 18, 2017 by Manfred von Dreidecker

[FLOMBIE]

6 hours ago, Grey Area said:

What contracts are those?  This so called divorce bill is a mystery.

we don’t know what it is and the EU will not reveal its accounting.

the UK will honour its contracts, will pay all the dues that come with membership.  This strange figure is not contractual.

Do you really believe the UK has projects and contracts worth up to 100b on foreign soil?

That is a really old statement of mine. Why did you dig it up?

Did you really believe you could just drop out of the EU?

Edited December 19, 2017 by FLOMBIE

[Ozymandias]

The only thing people voted on in the 2016 Referendum was whether the UK should leave the EU or remain a part of it. Nothing else. The question put to the vote was:

Should the United Kingdom leave the European Union or should it remain a part of the European Union?

The 'will of the people' was that it should leave the European Union. That's all. No menton of the Customs Union or the Single Market. Nobody was asked whether they should leave the Customs Union or the Single Market. There is no democratic mandate for leaving either of the latter.

[stevewinn]

10 minutes ago, Ozymandias said:

The only thing people voted on in the 2016 Referendum was whether the UK should leave the EU or remain a part of it. Nothing else. The question put to the vote was:

Should the United Kingdom leave the European Union or should it remain a part of the European Union?

The 'will of the people' was that it should leave the European Union. That's all. No menton of the Customs Union or the Single Market. Nobody was asked whether they should leave the Customs Union or the Single Market. There is no democratic mandate for leaving either of the latter.

You sound like Leanne Wood. Have a watch.

 

[Space Commander Travis]

40 minutes ago, Ozymandias said:

The only thing people voted on in the 2016 Referendum was whether the UK should leave the EU or remain a part of it. Nothing else. The question put to the vote was:

Should the United Kingdom leave the European Union or should it remain a part of the European Union?

The 'will of the people' was that it should leave the European Union. That's all. No menton of the Customs Union or the Single Market. Nobody was asked whether they should leave the Customs Union or the Single Market. There is no democratic mandate for leaving either of the latter.

are they separate things or part & parcle of  membership of the EU? 

[Setton]

15 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

are they separate things or part & parcle of  membership of the EU? 

Since there are countries in them that are not EU members, they must, by definition, be separate things. 

[Space Commander Travis]

Then problem solved,surely. They can still be part of the trade customs union single market but not be dictated to by the Eurocrats of Brussels, then everyone would be happy!  

[Setton]

9 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

Then problem solved,surely. They can still be part of the trade customs union single market but not be dictated to by the Eurocrats of Brussels, then everyone would be happy!  

Ah but by suggesting such a thing you're obviously a traitor/subverting the Will Of The People/an enemy of the people! 

Proud of yourself?! 

 

 

[stevewinn]

13 minutes ago, Setton said:

Ah but by suggesting such a thing you're obviously a traitor/subverting the Will Of The People/an enemy of the people! 

Proud of yourself?! 

 

 

What are the condition of remaining in either single Market or Customs Union........... The Answer. = We haven't left the EU.

 

[Setton]

32 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

What are the condition of remaining in either single Market or Customs Union........... The Answer. = We haven't left the EU.

 

Depends on what you negotiate. You know there are non EU members in the single market and customs union. 

[stevewinn]

21 minutes ago, Setton said:

Depends on what you negotiate. You know there are non EU members in the single market and customs union. 

What are the conditions these countries accept for being in the single market / customs Union.

 

 

 

 

[Setton]

4 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

What are the conditions these countries accept for being in the single market / customs Union.

 

 

 

 

We all know the answer to that already so I'm not going to waste our time on it. Clearly you want to equate that to membership of the EU but it simply isn't. 

[stevewinn]

1 minute ago, Setton said:

We all know the answer to that already so I'm not going to waste our time on it. Clearly you want to equate that to membership of the EU but it simply isn't. 

Well if you know the answer why are you talking rubbish and wasting everyone's time if that's your concern. (you've seen that think tank report haven't you and are trying to lead us down a path?)

The UK voted to Leave the EU.

• End Jurisdiction of the ECJ
• End free movement of people.
• End Payments. (membership)
• Regain our Fish grounds
• Able to Negotiate and conclude our own trade deals with other countries.

YOU know we cannot do any of that if we remain in the Single market or Customs Union. So your Iceland, Norway, Lichtenstein, Switzerland or Turkey model doesn't fit the United Kingdom Brexit strategy. The way to approach this Deal is the UK as a 3rd country status. one more in line with Canada, Chile, South Korea.

In fact from Iceland in the far North of Europe to Turkey in the Asia-minor there is only Belarus who doesn't have a trade deal with the EU. This highlights a UK trade deal is possible with the EU on the grounds of a 3rd Country.

 

 

[Space Commander Travis]

3 hours ago, stevewinn said:

The way to approach this Deal is the UK as a 3rd country status.

Perhaps you ought to Insert the word "world" into that...  

[Space Commander Travis]

I'm sorry, I seem to be becoming a doubting Thomas aren't I. Don't worry, I still have absolute faith in the ability of Prime Minister Theresa ....er ...  

[keithisco]

10 hours ago, Setton said:

Ah but by suggesting such a thing you're obviously a traitor/subverting the Will Of The People/an enemy of the people! 

Proud of yourself?! 

Missing the reality again...

Being "in" the SM and / Customs Union means that the UK has got to accept the rulings of the EU and the ECJ, so there is no UK Control on Tariffs, Regulations, or on Financial Services. It also means continued payments to the EU, no control over how the EU applies Governance in its dealings, no say on how monies given are spent, accepting Free Movement of People, not permitted to sign FTA's on our own - basically, its means that all of the reasons for voting Leave in the first place would still remain.

Apart from that, as Stevewinn correctly points out, no-one was in any doubt that voting to Leave the EU also meant leaving the SM and CU.

I am unsure why you are still re-running the Referendum, when a decision has been taken with (despite what Remainers claim) "eyes wide open". 

[stevewinn]

On 19/12/2017 at 11:25 AM, stevewinn said:

The way to approach this Deal is the UK as a 3rd country status. one more in line with Canada, Chile, South Korea.

@Setton

Michel Barnier saying the same thing to day; Also Transition period to end December 2020.

Quote

EU says final Brexit trade deal will be 'along same lines' as agreements with Canada, South Korea.

Michel Barnier says UK red lines have ruled out relationship similar to other European countries

Michel Barnier said Thersa Mays red lines to take Britain out of the customs union and single market, and to reject the jurisdiction of European courts, meant a closer relationship similar to the ones the EU has with other non-EU European countries was off the table.

“Logically, for the economic side of our partnership, we’ll be working on the basis of a free trade agreement – along the same lines of what we negotiated and signed with Canada, South Korea, and Japan,” Mr Barnier told reporters in Brussels on Wednesday.

A slide drawn up by the chief negotiator and widely circulated in Brussels shows that the UK could not have a Norwegian or Icelandic-style deal because of the PM refusing jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice (ECJ), free movement, regulatory alignment, and making a financial contribution to the EU budget.

A Swiss-style deal is also off the table because of the UK’s rejection of free movement, regulatory alignment, and financial payments.

Britain would also be unable to have a relationship with the EU similar to the one enjoyed by Ukraine – which would require some regulatory alignment and recognition of the ECJ. The model followed by Turkey is also ruled out of the UK’s desire to sign trade agreements with other countries – leaving a looser deal such as the one with non-European countries like South Korea as the only option.

 

That's more like it.

Edited December 20, 2017 by stevewinn

[stevewinn]

The EU (withdrawal) Bill passed the last stage (committee stage) last night in the HoP.  The Bill was passed 319 to 294. The Govt won 42 votes. lost 1. - the triumph of last weeks Theresa Mays "defeat" a long distant memory now. 

[bee]

 

well - I've had a Christmas card come this morning from Number 10 - hand signed by Teresa May -  

 

 

[stevewinn]

1 minute ago, bee said:

 

well - I've had a Christmas card come this morning from Number 10 - hand signed by Teresa May -  

 

 

is that in response to the card/letter you sent her?