Opening gambits in EU / UK exit negotiations;

[Black Monk]

21 hours ago, stevewinn said:

revisionists propaganda. remember when they wanted to rename World War 2 - the European Civil war. Its was just as bad with the Olympic medals, when the EU tried to pass themselves off as a country. claiming they came top of the table. The United Kingdom finished second to the USA. the UK won nearly 25% of the claimed medals yet the EU removed us from their list. As i say revisionists propaganda. surprising how close to the Soviet model the EU is. The last Leader of the Soviet Union Mikhail Gorbachev once said: “The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe.”

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Didn't the EU once try to tell us that Britain isn't an island?

[stevewinn]

1 hour ago, Black Monk said:

Didn't the EU once try to tell us that Britain isn't an island?

im not sure, first time i've heard that one. tell you what you have a good memory i just googled "Britain not a Island EU" and the search returned results from 2006.

Quote

European Commission statisticians have decided that Britain is not an island. They say an island can not have fewer than 50 permanent residents, can not be attached to the mainland by a rigid structure, can not be less than a kilometre from a mainland and, crucially in the case of Britain, can not be home to the capital of an EU state.

I do remember when they divided the EU empire/Federation into new regions and Kent ended up part of France.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1527886/New-EU-map-makes-Kent-part-of-same-nation-as-France.html

 

 

[bee]

 

^^^^^

re. map above --- quintessential example of divide and rule :/

 

[bee]

On 15/10/2017 at 8:02 AM, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

 

 

 

How thoroughly nasty, smug and arrogant these entrepreneurial geniuses really are. Not to mention that Sir Dicky is a great big fraud; Virgin Atlantic is now 48% owned by Delta Airlines and 31% by Air France/KLM, so Sir Dicky only actually owns about 20% of it. Similarly, Virgin Trains is predominantly owned by Stagecoach.  

 

there was an article about him recently in the Daily Mail  --  

Quentin Letts... gives it to him with both barrels

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4961022/QUENTIN-LETTS-Richard-Branson-condescending-swine.html

 

Quote

In Saturday’s extract from Quentin Letts’ new book, he turned his gimlet eye on a new class of smug, condescending, finger-wagging people who never tire of telling us what to do and think. Today, he reveals the worst offender of them all . . .

 

Bearded box-wallah Branson makes out he is a caring, sharing guy. He has created for himself an image of laid-back dude, the ordinary guy, your baby-boom groover next door. He portrays himself as such an anguished altruist, open-collared and long-haired, you wonder that he even knows phrases such as ‘mark-up’ or ‘bottom line’.

In fact, he is a tight-biting businessman who has run his companies with flinty acumen and grabbed a packet for himself. He has an interest in globalised pay rates, international commodity prices and the Western banking system. Please don’t call it exploitation, but this is certainly capitalism in the raw.

He is also a remorseless collector of phone numbers of the fashionable and mighty. When it comes to climbing, he is in the clematis league, a name-dropper of the first water, vain, self-important, a prize specimen of that genus Bastardus (patronisingae).

 

Edited October 16, 2017 by bee

[bee]

23 hours ago, Black Monk said:

Yeah. For some reason, they don't allow links from the UK's most popular newspaper on this site. It's a bit odd and goes against most people's idea of free speech, but there you go.

As for the wonderful thing that is Brexit: the Remainers are now trying to tell us that, once outside the EU, planes will no longer fly from Britain to the EU. Do they really believe the British public are so thick as to believe that the only planes that land in the EU are from other EU countries?

 

oh didn't you know --- after Brexit we will all have to go over the Channel in rowing boats... or swim ... .... 

 

[Space Commander Travis]

23 hours ago, Black Monk said:

Yeah. For some reason, they don't allow links from the UK's most popular newspaper on this site. It's a bit odd and goes against most people's idea of free speech, but there you go.

As for the wonderful thing that is Brexit: the Remainers are now trying to tell us that, once outside the EU, planes will no longer fly from Britain to the EU. Do they really believe the British public are so thick as to believe that the only planes that land in the EU are from other EU countries?

I know, I saw that, apparently there are no commercial flights anywhere in the world except between countries that have a political or economic union. I wish they'd hurry up and bring Japan into the EU so we could fly there one day.

 

(this may be sarcasm.) 

[Space Commander Travis]

* Apparently it was Richard Hammond, presumably in an attempt to blackmail people into getting on with it: Hammond says flights between UK and EU could stop in 'no deal scenario' ...

[LV-426]

3 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

* Apparently it was Richard Hammond, presumably in an attempt to blackmail people into getting on with it: Hammond says flights between UK and EU could stop in 'no deal scenario' ...

I'm guessing you mean Philip Hammond? I think Richard Hammond still has his hands full putting up with Jeremy Clarkson on a daily basis

[stevewinn]

4 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

I know, I saw that, apparently there are no commercial flights anywhere in the world except between countries that have a political or economic union. I wish they'd hurry up and bring Japan into the EU so we could fly there one day.

 

(this may be sarcasm.) 

The French Air traffic controllers where on strike the other day. 9th October. which followed their September 21st & 23rd Strikes. hundreds of thousands of people stranded, 80% of flights cancelled. and this was repeated on all three dates. no out cry. but bet if this happens on Brexit-day-1 the outcry, tears will be flooding down faces, and the BBC with be showing irate parents complete with sobbing kids and the customary teddy bear strewn on the floor. 

If the EU play funny b*****s and they will, we seen a test run only a few months back. - But where not childish we can simply allow planes from Europe to land in the UK and let them fly back empty, how long will the european airlines allow that to continue, losing money hand over fist. and then if we just take Spain whose economy is basically tourism 14.7Million Brits travelled to Spain to holiday this year. that's 1-in-4 of overall tourists. it would be devastating for the Spanish economy if they where prevented from flying/holidaying in Spain, and lets face it economically Spain could be in turmoil with Catalonia in 2019. now imagine the same no-fly scenario for the likes of Greece ect...

Im often reminded by all these scare stories by the remoaners, they said during the referendum the EU doesnt intrude into the UK's affairs, a light touch to everyday life in the UK. once the referendum result was in and it was Leave the same remoaners are now saying its all far too complicated to leave, we cant do X,Y or Z without the EU.

 

[spud the mackem]

On ‎15‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 6:40 AM, bee said:

 

Re bolded above --- I think this is definitely what they are plotting - (one of the plots anyway)

The Remainers haven't given up - not by a long chalk - and we even have the Speaker of the House of Commons saying in the last few days -

 

https://www.************/news/4667459/mps-could-ignore-the-referendum-to-stop-brexit-claims-commons-speaker-john-bercow/

 

 

edit --- The Sun link is blocked so let's see how the Guardian gets on --- same subject 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/12/mps-should-not-feel-obliged-to-back-brexit-says-john-bercow

The Commons Speaker, John Bercow, has said MPs have the right to attempt to block Brexit using the parliamentary process, rather than feeling obliged to vote in line with the referendum result.

 

So John Bercow and his cronies are going against the wishes of the British People does this mean that he is planning a revolution, so he should be sacked before he causes anymore trouble. 

[Ozymandias]

4 hours ago, spud the mackem said:

So John Bercow and his cronies are going against the wishes of the British People does this mean that he is planning a revolution, so he should be sacked before he causes anymore trouble. 

No revolution. The Brexit referendum is not, and never was, legally binding. All decisions concerning Brexit, the EU and the future of Britain can be made within parliament alone. It is not the will of the people but parliament that is sovereign.

[Space Commander Travis]

9 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

No revolution. The Brexit referendum is not, and never was, legally binding. All decisions concerning Brexit, the EU and the future of Britain can be made within parliament alone. It is not the will of the people but parliament that is sovereign.

That's the basic problem with democracy right there isn't it. Does Parliament know any better, or any more about anything, than the ordinary man or person on the bus does? Parliament is just a rabble that exists just to shout about things. It's Ministers that make all the decisions about everything on the basis of their supposed superior knowledge and wisdom (leave pause for laughter). But Ministers are all just MPs who have no more knowledge or wisdom than the rest of them. It really is utterly useless in every single way.

[stevewinn]

17 hours ago, spud the mackem said:

So John Bercow and his cronies are going against the wishes of the British People does this mean that he is planning a revolution, so he should be sacked before he causes anymore trouble. 

So true their are a large number of quislings in Parliament that would love to go against the wishes of the people, we hear it from a number of Labour MP's. obviously we always get the cobblers about the Referendum result not being legally binding, advisory and all that guff, and yet it was Parliament with its Referendum act in 2015 which passed in a Parliamentary vote when 544 to 53 MP's voted in favour of the Referendum ballot. - what followed was the Referendum campaign and the full weight of the state behind project fear, The now Famous quote by one of David Cameron's advisor's when he turned to the PM after one of his speeches and said "the people are not listening"  in other words the people are not falling for it.

Then we had the Referendum result itself, tears tears and more tears, the remoaner MP's didnt know what to do or where to turn, we started hearing words such as "i respect the result and the will of the people" "im a democrat" etc... Then we had all the Gina Miller palaver, she was afront to something more sinister in the background, as she's taking the government to court in one room in the next court room her backers where fighting to keep their anonymity.

Then we had the passing of the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017  passed through both houses and received Royal assent. The MP's voted 494 to 122 to pass the Bill and so here we, and Parliament mandated to Leave the European Union.

The MP's i'd remind them especially the Labour party, just look at the Referendum Map of the UK. Labour heart lands -..................So remoaners can say its not legally binding but its going to take another act of Parliament to stop Brexit, and i defy any number of MP's or Party to defy the will of the people. The political fallout if Brexit was circumvented would see a backlash unprecedented in Parliament and British politics. - 

[RoofGardener]

They still havn't learned,  @stevewinn

The OECD has produced a report stating that the UK economy would be improved if Brexit was reversed. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41652416

Their chutzpah is amazing, considering their catastrophically faulty predictions about the consequences of the VOTE (never mind the actual Brexit) back in 2016, and their hasty revision of growth figures (better than predicted) for 2017.

http://www.*** blocked ***/finance/city/712934/OECD-brexit-forecast-uturn-economy

https://order-order.com/2016/09/22/oecd-reverses-brexit-recession-forecast/

https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2016/09/three-months-on-project-fears-predictions-of-instant-economic-disaster-have-been-disproved.html

 

 

Edited October 17, 2017 by RoofGardener

[spud the mackem]

17 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

No revolution. The Brexit referendum is not, and never was, legally binding. All decisions concerning Brexit, the EU and the future of Britain can be made within parliament alone. It is not the will of the people but parliament that is sovereign.

The people in Britain voted to get out of Europe, NOT Parliament, and one of the reasons was that we do not want to be ruled by Junkman and Merkcow .We are, and always will be British not European .Rule Britannia.

[Ozymandias]

 

stevewinn said: '...we always get the cobblers about the Referendum result not being legally binding, advisory and all that guff,...':

How can that be cobblers and guff when, in fact, it is absolutely true? Are you arguing that the referendum IS legally binding? A change in your parliamentary majority, or even another referendum in the future, is a possibility and with it a change in what you like to call 'the will of the people'. In the last general election - one that May thought would give her and the Conservatives an even bigger majority in favour of Brexit - their was a swing away from her. 

5 hours ago, spud the mackem said:

The people in Britain voted to get out of Europe, NOT Parliament, and one of the reasons was that we do not want to be ruled by Junkman and Merkcow .We are, and always will be British not European .Rule Britannia.

Who are Junkman and Merkcow? 17.4 million people voted for Brexit out of 45.7 million voters: that is 38% of the total number eligible to vote. 28% of voters never bothered to exercise their right to vote. Those who voted yes to Brexit represent only a quarter of the UK's total population. Of course you are British. Whether you are in the EU or not. Joining the EU is not a vote for relinquishing your Britishness. Rule Britannia? Rule what? This is the modern age. Maybe that, in essence, is the problem for some people in the UK. 

'Out of 186 countries with a growing economy last year (2016) the UK was ranked 145th by the IMF. The OECD is in no way positive about the effects of Brexit on the UK economy~:-

http://www.oecd.org/eco/the-economic-consequences-of-brexit-a-taxing-decision.htm

I know the British government and the Treasury rejected this study but they would, wouldn't they? In any case, I wish you all well although I find the increasing modern trend towards tribal nationalism a little distasteful.

[stevewinn]

13 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

 

stevewinn said: '...we always get the cobblers about the Referendum result not being legally binding, advisory and all that guff,...':

How can that be cobblers and guff when, in fact, it is absolutely true? Are you arguing that the referendum IS legally binding? A change in your parliamentary majority, or even another referendum in the future, is a possibility and with it a change in what you like to call 'the will of the people'. In the last general election - one that May thought would give her and the Conservatives an even bigger majority in favour of Brexit - their was a swing away from her. 

Who are Junkman and Merkcow? 17.4 million people voted for Brexit out of 45.7 million voters: that is 38% of the total number eligible to vote. 28% of voters never bothered to exercise their right to vote. Those who voted yes to Brexit represent only a quarter of the UK's total population. Of course you are British. Whether you are in the EU or not. Joining the EU is not a vote for relinquishing your Britishness. Rule Britannia? Rule what? This is the modern age. Maybe that, in essence, is the problem for some people in the UK. 

'Out of 186 countries with a growing economy last year (2016) the UK was ranked 145th by the IMF. The OECD is in no way positive about the effects of Brexit on the UK economy~:-

http://www.oecd.org/eco/the-economic-consequences-of-brexit-a-taxing-decision.htm

I know the British government and the Treasury rejected this study but they would, wouldn't they? In any case, I wish you all well although I find the increasing modern trend towards tribal nationalism a little distasteful.

it is a load of cobblers because if you think the Referendum and subsequent acts of Parliament that have been passed and achieving royal assent is going to be over turned then its a load of rubbish bleating the line its not legally binding, fact, its only advisory let me say this we are far down the road and over the hill to worry about "its not legally binding" that argument is dead and if you cannot see the folly or the consequences if the MP's or Government of the day ignored the vote then more fool you.

Staying on the same theme of you and your ilk being unable to move on, here we go again, 27% of eligible voters never turned out to vote, well so what, these people had the same opportunity like the 72% who did vote. the 72% who get off their bum got down the polling station and voted or alternatively registered for a postal vote 3 months in advance of the actual polling day, or failing that phoned their local council and arranged to be picked up if their mobility isnt to good, or failing, failing that registered to have someone place their vote on their behalf. Democracy is something we take part in its not something that is done to us or just happens to us.

On the IMF, OECD, - Are you still listening to these, they were wrong before and during the referendum, and none of them seen the worst credit crisis in History coming down the tracks in 2007/08. and that's their bread and butter. I'd be embarrassed to continuing taking notice of such sources who've continually been wrong.

Mind you is this the same OECD whose received. £85,173,454.91 from the EU since 2007:

• In 2007 the OECD received €3,915,338 (£2,680,064.52) from the European Commission
• In 2008 the OECD received €6,915,240 (£5,504,897.55) from the European Commission
• In 2009 the OECD received €5,217,103 (£4,651,542.95) from the European Commission
• In 2010 the OECD received €3,947,916 (£3,384,548.39) from the European Commission
• In 2011 the OECD received €5,796,929 (£5,033,473.45) from the European Commission
• In 2012 the OECD received €1,722,375 (£1,396,329.41) from the European Commission
• In 2013 the OECD received €2,669,613 (£2,265,433.59) from the European Commission
• In 2014 the OECD received €380,249 (£306,784.89) from the European Commission
• In 2015 the OECD received €32,898,142 (£23,884,051.09) from the European Commission
• In 2016 the OECD received €44,752,859 (£36,066,329.07) from the European Commission

Listen, in the land of Hope and Glory, we've a long proud History of doing what's right even when it wasn't easy. We've been top of our game for 429 years is leaving a political union really going to bring about the downfall of the United Kingdom, succeed where 100 years war failed, where America war of Independence failed. or any number of the numerous challengers we've faced over four and a quarter centuries not on your nelly. Boris Johnson said its time to put a tiger in the tank, its time to release the Lion, The world heard it roar on 23rd June 2016. Time is fast approaching for it to run free once again.

To many remoaners are nesh, they've fallen to their default position in life running to the corner ready to play the victim, they want the EU to throw a safety blanket over them, we cant make our own trade deals the EU have to do it for us, we cant make our own food standard rules, the EU have to do it for us, We cant make our own employment laws, the EU has to do it for us. Eww leaves a horrible taste in the mouth such a mentality. <shudders>

The old British spirit to the question of Brexit, this is going to be Perilous.

Brexiteer, Excellent.

Remoaner, Were all going to die.

Lets talk about the land of the spud, pygmies, fairies and leprechauns and vassal state that is The Republic Ireland. We hear nothing from the Irish government or their part in the negotiations! is the commission even listening to them? oh that's right while the EU and UK negotiators are in the room the Rep of Ireland are outside having their future decided for them.  

 

 

 

[RoofGardener]

16 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

......

'Out of 186 countries with a growing economy last year (2016) the UK was ranked 145th by the IMF. The OECD is in no way positive about the effects of Brexit on the UK economy~:-

http://www.oecd.org/eco/the-economic-consequences-of-brexit-a-taxing-decision.htm

I know the British government and the Treasury rejected this study but they would, wouldn't they? In any case, I wish you all well although I find the increasing modern trend towards tribal nationalism a little distasteful.

ROFL.... "bogus statistic alert.... bogus statistic alert.... arrrOOOOgah..... arrrOOOgah.... "

We have the 5th largest economy on the planet (based on GDP). Could you post a link to this ".. ranked 145th..." story ?

If it is only measuring GROWTH, then ... well.... a low-level economy might GROW more than the UK's in percentage terms, but it would still be a low-level economy. Which would you prefer to live in ?

As for the OECD... as previously discussed... it's predictions regarding Brexit thus far have been WOEFULLY inaccurate. Why should we give them any credibility ?

[stevewinn]

It seems the position of the European Unions leader (Germany) as spoken... Germany is working on proposals for future relations with the U.K. that include calls for a “comprehensive free-trade accord” with the British government, according to a draft paper prepared by the Foreign Ministry in Berlin.

four-page document, dated Oct. 11, urges the EU avoid a piecemeal approach if and when talks with the U.K. get under way. It proposes instead a broad partnership that includes “at a minimum” the fields of foreign and security policy; fighting terrorism; cooperation on criminal justice; agriculture and fisheries; energy; transport, and especially air transport; research and digital issues. “We share the U.K.’s desire to secure a close partnership with the Union after its exit that covers economic and trade relations,” the ministry states in the paper.

Im not surprised by this, said all along there are only two countries we need to talk to, Germany and France. Frau Merkel's position as been weakened by the election, German industry is pragmatic and i doubt many in Germany will put EU interest above that of Germany. take the German Car Industry 1-in-4 cars are exported to the UK, though it only represents 7% of Car exports, it represents 23% of their profits. The VW scandal as hurt the industry, VW only last year said there would be 30,000 Job loses world wide, 23,000 of them in Germany by (2020). If the UK leaves on no-deal, which really should be called WTO, then potentially 3 Car plants face closure. that's a further 12,000 job losses and more in the wider supply chain add to this bad news would be Merkels millions, #allwelcome all looking for a job.

The political landscape for the EU 27 could and i believe will look very different by 2019. what situation will Spain be in? what impact will this have on the Euro currency? and what about the Eurozone as a whole, Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal and we have to include Ireland as Brexit will disproportional impact upon them. but the debt and bailout of Greece is on going, Italy only a few months ago had to step in to save its banks, the "father" of the Euro as already stated the Euro will not survive another crisis. - just look at the non-performing loans currently at €680Billion for club Med, The EU’s richer members, all of whom are in the north, could continue their transfer payments to their southern neighbours, but those governments have made it clear that they are not willing to finance ever growing subsidies, and they do not have the political support to continue to underwrite southern Europe.

On Politics, elections across Europe; between now and 2019/2020 Spain, Belgium, Denmark, Greece, Poland, Portugal, Luxembourg, Sweden and possibly The Netherlands. all can change the landscape.

What will the migrant crisis look like in 2018-2019?, It might have disappeared from the main NEWS channels, but its still ongoing Between January and September this year (2017) 140,000 refugees and migrants arrived on European shores. (Unicef) What further political tensions will this bring we've already seen the fallout to date, and can only get worse.

Then on wider security, what of Ukraine/Russia this failed expansionist policy by the EU still holds uncertainty on Europe's Eastern Flank. What will Russia do? switch off the gas like it has in the past, who knows?

With all these problems will the European Union like to add another, or more importantly will the key members like to add No-Deal Brexit to the mix? time will tell.

 

 

 

[stevewinn]

It seems today Frau Merkel is having a pop at the British Media, She says on trade deal or negotiations, “From my point of view, there are absolutely no signs that we can’t succeed. If we are all clear in our minds, I have absolutely no doubt that we can reach a good result. What I find it hard to understand, when we need a result by March 2019, is why people are already talking in October 2017 about what might happen at the end of the process. I believe, in contrast to the way things are portrayed in the British press, that things are progressing step by step. We’re in a process, and if it goes on for two or three weeks longer, or even longer, that doesn’t stop us from working hard to reach the second phase. I very clearly want an agreement, not any kind of unpredictable solution, and we’re working very hard on that.”

Also interesting was Donald Tusk EU commission leader in a penned letter to the 27 members that they have to remain united, the Fact he had to pen a letter to each of the 27 shows there are divides within the 27 over the EU future relationship with the UK, I think it's starting to sink in, Theresa May is safe, there is no possibility of a change of Government, -  this Tory Government will lead the UK out of the EU and we was reaching a point where we'd walk away from the talks and go WTO. i think that concentrated the minds of a few in the EU. It now seems 24hrs later the EU are going to talk trade but internally.

 

Like Brexiteers said from the start, this picture says it all. these are the only two countries that matter. and highlights the good old days of Geopolitics is a live and well, the regional powers deciding the future of Europe once again. the other 25 EU members are just accessories.

 

Edited October 20, 2017 by stevewinn

[bee]

On 17/10/2017 at 9:29 PM, Ozymandias said:

 

I know the British government and the Treasury rejected this study but they would, wouldn't they? In any case, I wish you all well although I find the increasing modern trend towards tribal nationalism a little distasteful.

 

Get you !!!

Prefer a modern kind of Global Dictatorship do we ? Would that be more to your taste?.. .. 

 

[bee]

21 hours ago, stevewinn said:

Also interesting was Donald Tusk EU commission leader in a penned letter to the 27 members that they have to remain united, the Fact he had to pen a letter to each of the 27 shows there are divides within the 27 over the EU future relationship with the UK, I think it's starting to sink in, Theresa May is safe, there is no possibility of a change of Government, -  this Tory Government will lead the UK out of the EU

 

You could be right and this could have been why Theresa May called the election when she did and just about scraped a majority together -

Because if it was left to nearer the actual exit the constant plots and schemes of the Remainers could have got a Labour Government in
that was willing to keep the UK a full member the EU... one way or another ...

I just hope Theresa has the highest security possible.... if you get my drift..... 

 

 

[Ozymandias]

Conspiracy theorists ....... what can one say?! To the barricades!! Or is it the border.

[Space Commander Travis]

Holy crap, now the Remainers are going to bump off Ms. May? 

[bee]

 

Just had a thought -- omg when we leave the EU will Ireland still give us points in the Eurovision Song Contest - 

Sometimes they are the only country to boost our score - except when we were extra crap and got nul points -
even the Irish couldn't give us one point then -  (yeah yeah I know it's all political...that's why it's an issue with
us leaving the EU and Ireland remaining )

aaaanyway ......

Let's have a little musical interlude dedicated to brothers and sisters, north and south, across the Irish Sea --