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The Connection


LucidElement

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55 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Hmmm Essan flavored yogurt.....sounds like something medieval

Medieval? Does it come with mead?

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7 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

Medieval? Does it come with mead?

Oh course not: Tenderloin of rat with wish sauce

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I find this so depressing.  A coincidental shape from all of three sites is spun up into a worldwide earthshattering revelation.  This is simply poor history and worthless.

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16 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

It is Harte that suggested that a definition of 'civilization' is cooked, done, and delivered ... and that this mythical definition should be seen as that by others. He stated:

"It's an agreed-upon term."

I'm making the opposite case ... that there is no consensus definition and as such no current definition can seen as standard by anyone. It's an open field. 

That is not the case. There are some differences regarding how many of certain criteria must be met and differences of opinion on certain specific cultures being or not being a "civilization."

That is a FAR cry from an "open field."

Some academics suggest fewer criteria for certain cultures, some suggest every criterion must be met.

But the list of criteria used is agreed upon - just not universal agreement on how they are used.

Harte

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17 hours ago, Hanslune said:

Rupert noted that BK is a bloody rancid milksop and mumpsimus.

This from a guy that can't even make chili.

Harte

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16 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

A vastly inadequate and highly problematic measuring / evaluation concept. 

Again, it's not a measure nor is it an evaluation. It's just a classification.

Harte

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4 minutes ago, Harte said:

This from a guy that can't even make chili.

Harte

Well.......................but I have been to Texas

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Really? All those pages and nobody suggested that it all just means that the ancient deities knew how to accessorize with a nice tote bag and fake jewel watches?

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7 hours ago, Essan said:

Is there any evidence the Jomon made bags that could be carried in the hand?

Otherwise, they are just a culture and not a civilisation  ;) 


btw I have never made a bag that can be carried in the hand.   But then again, I have never claimed to be civilised.  Just cultured  :D 

You also appear to be a social type as well   :)       

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5 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

I admit I'm not very familiar with the ISCSC so I visited their website. I would agree there is no consensus on exactly what classifies a civilization, but, as I wrote in my previous post, there are criteria for helping us to recognize a civilization. In any case, on the ISCSC website is this page:

Selected Definitions of Civilizations

There is a paper one can download from this page. I don't have time to read it right now, but hopefully other posters will. The paper reflects what I wrote about variations in criteria, but variations do not exclude agreement. There is certainly enough agreement among the variations to identify a cultural group as a civilization.

 

 

From what I remember from Anthro at Uni on this ;        In a way    (  I stress that ) it is like the term religion.   first of all it meant certain things, then the etymology was discussed, early usage , what it came to mean, how it was applied to groups in the past and how , now we know more, may a bad term to describe what was happening in the past  as it projects a modern mind set and understanding back to other cultures ... some who never had a term for 'religion'   ( like   "law"  for example ) .

We can analyse the word culture  society and civilisation in the same way, see how it was developed,  and particularly with 'civilisation'  realise how it was misapplied   *     re defined, broadened  and become a 'set of definitions'    ( that I linked to earlier ) . 

 

But this is entirely different to the word 'religion'  ... religion defines a   concept  , civilisation defines   objects and evidence left behind   NOT   some sort of modern western concept that exists now and didnt back then. 

 

So I call a big fail  on the attempt to discredit the usage of this word in the same way as the word religion has been used .  

Just another attempt to  shore up the woo camp   ( but by never openly declaring it ... just trying to undermine and sow seeds of doubt in the minds of  those  ......     'yet to be educated '  .  

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31 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Really? All those pages and nobody suggested that it all just means that the ancient deities knew how to accessorize with a nice tote bag and fake jewel watches?

Of course I did !   Did you miss that . 

 

I have also suggested that people made bags to carry stuff in all over the place .   Back there there is a lovely detailed version of a square one , you can see the weaving on it and it has a square fitted lid .

Just like some tribal  modern ones I put up early . 

 

Just wildly fantasizing here    ( well ... I want my turn too !  I am not gonna be left out of the fun !  )      in a society where people dont 'clutter dress' and   dont normally carry a whole lot of stuff around , a person with a bag or container  begs the question , "What you got in the bag ? '      I'm guessing an actual or a symbolic representation of trade goods  (when a more obvious usage might not be there ) .

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( no  ... before you start up  ......    the bag,   I mean  )  

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In research the bias does appear in what we select as criteria. Suppose an area has been occupied for a long time and there are pieces of pottery with different symbols suggesting different cultures. Larger piece of pottery might be easier to categorize and smaller pieces with less obvious decorations on them are harder to categorize. Different people might categorize the difficult to identify pieces in different ways.

A good researcher clearly describes what they did. They might have a bias, but they write what that bias is. That way others can compare what they did to an article they read.

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19 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

I provided you with 2 links about the source that you have inferred contest the definition of civilization and you have not responded by providing a direct link to the paper that disputes the currently held description. Are you going to or will you continue to avoid engaging in a reasonable discussion?

jmccr8

Dude! :)  Two hours after posting the links you're fussing that I haven't responded yet? Maybe you suffer from hurry sickness? 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-time-cure/201302/hurry-sickness

I juggle a demanding job, family, social obligations, two classes, manuscript editing for a Sept. publication, and unfortunately it seems that the dissertation isn't going to write itself. This forum may be a significant part of your life but it's a tiny speck on my radar. I'll see if I can dig up the paper if / when I have time (after I respond to clearly written on-topic posts by kmt_sesh (343, 344, 345) and BTE (360) ... but you might want to restate this more clearly:

21 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

have a link that describes the contention that the criteria for a civilization differs from the common accepted norm

... because, huh? This doesn't related at all to how I described the paper you're asking about:

21 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

The International Society for the Comparative Study of Civilizations holds the position that there is no consensus criteria (therefore no consensus definition) for 'civilization'.

... and the phrases I bolded in your question aren't clearly contextualized or attributed to anyone ... they are just floating. Whose "criteria for a civilization"? What "commonly accepted norm"? (not anything I suggested).  How does this related to how I described the paper, if at all?

Also, the two links you posted:

https://networks.h-net.org/node/GROUP_NID/discussions/82452/2016-conference-international-society-comparative-study

http://www.worldhistorysite.com/iscscform.html

One is a call for papers and one is an application to join the ISCSC. Is there a relevant reason why you posted these? 

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9 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

I juggle a demanding job, family, social obligations, two classes, manuscript editing for a Sept. publication...

See? There's your problem. I do have a highly demanding job myself, but no family and no social obligations. That tends to free up some time. ^_^

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5 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

Dude! :)  Two hours after posting the links you're fussing that I haven't responded yet? Maybe you suffer from hurry sickness? 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-time-cure/201302/hurry-sickness

I juggle a demanding job, family, social obligations, two classes, manuscript editing for a Sept. publication, and unfortunately it seems that the dissertation isn't going to write itself. This forum may be a significant part of your life but it's a tiny speck on my radar. I'll see if I can dig up the paper if / when I have time ... but you might want to restate this more clearly:

... because, huh? This doesn't related at all to how I described the paper you're asking about:

... and the phrases I bolded in your question aren't clearly contextualized or attributed to anyone ... they are just floating. Whose "criteria for a civilization"? What "commonly accepted norm"? (not anything I suggested).  How does this related to how I described the paper, if at all?

Also, the two links you posted:

https://networks.h-net.org/node/GROUP_NID/discussions/82452/2016-conference-international-society-comparative-study

http://www.worldhistorysite.com/iscscform.html

One is a call for papers and one is an application to join the ISCSC. Is there a relevant reason why you posted these? 

I am going to say this once,you came to the table and frivously argued about the description of "civilization" and several posters have tried to engage you in a productive manner which you avoided and babbled on about this dispute without giving any documentation to be reviewed and discussed. We all have lives so your not special and if your time is so precious then you should have provided the link asked for to save time and temper.

 I looked and didn't see the paper that you were on about and to show you that I have an interest I gave those links and explained at that time that I didn't see the paper that you had been talking about in hope that you would understand there WAS an interest in productive dialogue. You did spend a couple of hours being a dumba--  so It isn't that I am pressing you it was a reminder to which you apparently have no real interest in. In future should you wish to discuss something I won't bother trying to be civil if you do not give links as you waste a lot of peoples time with pointless rhetoric.:D

 Good luck and have a nice day

jmccr8

.

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1 hour ago, kmt_sesh said:

See? There's your problem. I do have a highly demanding job myself, but no family and no social obligations. That tends to free up some time. ^_^

You also dont post about stuff that you 'dont have the time' to back up   ;)  

 

(he still will not say what this 'publication' of his is     .... maybe that give the game right away !  ) 

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12 hours ago, back to earth said:

You also appear to be a social type as well   :)       

Appear being the operative word :D

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11 hours ago, back to earth said:

( no  ... before you start up  ......    the bag,   I mean  )  

Bag?  What bag?  B)

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16 hours ago, Essan said:

Bag?  What bag?  B)

Why, the all-purpose hippy bag, of course. BTE aways carries one when he goes out into the Outback to...um...pester kangaroos.

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3 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

Why, the all-purpose hippy bag, of course. BTE aways carries one when he goes out into the Outback to...um...pester kangaroos.

They carry them too  ... at the front . 

 

What do you mean 'pestering '  ?       If you mean  trying to  'bulldogging' one  from off the pillion  seat of a speeding offroad motorcycle ..... errrmmmm   :)

 

(pssst ....   anyone wants to try that, here is a hint .....  kangaroos can jump barbed wire fences at high speed , motor cycles cant  ! )

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2 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

The hand bags of these cultures were used for that gathering of seeds,  placing them in the Agricultural  age.

http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-topic/45b2ae037c7b4

 

Yes well ... errrm        did you know that before the 'agricultural age'   ..... hunters and gatherers   actually ate  some seeds and nuts ? 

Unless now we are going to postulate that they always ate on the spot of harvest .

What are the dates for the beginning of this        'Agricultural Age '   docy   ? 

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The oldest baskets found so far have been C-14 dated to around 10,000 to 12,000 years ago.

I think agriculture dates to roughly around that same time period.

Kind of looks like a "Chicken and Egg" thing to me. What came first... sustenance farming, or basket production? Could be either came first.

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