kmt_sesh Posted May 11, 2017 #351 Share Posted May 11, 2017 55 minutes ago, Hanslune said: Hmmm Essan flavored yogurt.....sounds like something medieval Medieval? Does it come with mead? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanslune Posted May 11, 2017 #352 Share Posted May 11, 2017 7 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said: Medieval? Does it come with mead? Oh course not: Tenderloin of rat with wish sauce 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinCthulhu Posted May 11, 2017 #353 Share Posted May 11, 2017 I find this so depressing. A coincidental shape from all of three sites is spun up into a worldwide earthshattering revelation. This is simply poor history and worthless. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harte Posted May 11, 2017 #354 Share Posted May 11, 2017 16 hours ago, No Solid Ground said: It is Harte that suggested that a definition of 'civilization' is cooked, done, and delivered ... and that this mythical definition should be seen as that by others. He stated: "It's an agreed-upon term." I'm making the opposite case ... that there is no consensus definition and as such no current definition can seen as standard by anyone. It's an open field. That is not the case. There are some differences regarding how many of certain criteria must be met and differences of opinion on certain specific cultures being or not being a "civilization." That is a FAR cry from an "open field." Some academics suggest fewer criteria for certain cultures, some suggest every criterion must be met. But the list of criteria used is agreed upon - just not universal agreement on how they are used. Harte 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harte Posted May 11, 2017 #355 Share Posted May 11, 2017 17 hours ago, Hanslune said: Rupert noted that BK is a bloody rancid milksop and mumpsimus. This from a guy that can't even make chili. Harte 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harte Posted May 11, 2017 #356 Share Posted May 11, 2017 16 hours ago, No Solid Ground said: A vastly inadequate and highly problematic measuring / evaluation concept. Again, it's not a measure nor is it an evaluation. It's just a classification. Harte 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanslune Posted May 11, 2017 #357 Share Posted May 11, 2017 4 minutes ago, Harte said: This from a guy that can't even make chili. Harte Well.......................but I have been to Texas 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphalesion Posted May 11, 2017 #358 Share Posted May 11, 2017 Really? All those pages and nobody suggested that it all just means that the ancient deities knew how to accessorize with a nice tote bag and fake jewel watches? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted May 11, 2017 #359 Share Posted May 11, 2017 7 hours ago, Essan said: Is there any evidence the Jomon made bags that could be carried in the hand? Otherwise, they are just a culture and not a civilisation btw I have never made a bag that can be carried in the hand. But then again, I have never claimed to be civilised. Just cultured You also appear to be a social type as well 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted May 11, 2017 #360 Share Posted May 11, 2017 5 hours ago, kmt_sesh said: I admit I'm not very familiar with the ISCSC so I visited their website. I would agree there is no consensus on exactly what classifies a civilization, but, as I wrote in my previous post, there are criteria for helping us to recognize a civilization. In any case, on the ISCSC website is this page: Selected Definitions of Civilizations There is a paper one can download from this page. I don't have time to read it right now, but hopefully other posters will. The paper reflects what I wrote about variations in criteria, but variations do not exclude agreement. There is certainly enough agreement among the variations to identify a cultural group as a civilization. From what I remember from Anthro at Uni on this ; In a way ( I stress that ) it is like the term religion. first of all it meant certain things, then the etymology was discussed, early usage , what it came to mean, how it was applied to groups in the past and how , now we know more, may a bad term to describe what was happening in the past as it projects a modern mind set and understanding back to other cultures ... some who never had a term for 'religion' ( like "law" for example ) . We can analyse the word culture society and civilisation in the same way, see how it was developed, and particularly with 'civilisation' realise how it was misapplied * re defined, broadened and become a 'set of definitions' ( that I linked to earlier ) . But this is entirely different to the word 'religion' ... religion defines a concept , civilisation defines objects and evidence left behind NOT some sort of modern western concept that exists now and didnt back then. So I call a big fail on the attempt to discredit the usage of this word in the same way as the word religion has been used . Just another attempt to shore up the woo camp ( but by never openly declaring it ... just trying to undermine and sow seeds of doubt in the minds of those ...... 'yet to be educated ' . 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted May 11, 2017 #361 Share Posted May 11, 2017 31 minutes ago, Orphalesion said: Really? All those pages and nobody suggested that it all just means that the ancient deities knew how to accessorize with a nice tote bag and fake jewel watches? Of course I did ! Did you miss that . I have also suggested that people made bags to carry stuff in all over the place . Back there there is a lovely detailed version of a square one , you can see the weaving on it and it has a square fitted lid . Just like some tribal modern ones I put up early . Just wildly fantasizing here ( well ... I want my turn too ! I am not gonna be left out of the fun ! ) in a society where people dont 'clutter dress' and dont normally carry a whole lot of stuff around , a person with a bag or container begs the question , "What you got in the bag ? ' I'm guessing an actual or a symbolic representation of trade goods (when a more obvious usage might not be there ) . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted May 11, 2017 #362 Share Posted May 11, 2017 remember these ...... man ? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted May 11, 2017 #363 Share Posted May 11, 2017 ( no ... before you start up ...... the bag, I mean ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stereologist Posted May 12, 2017 #364 Share Posted May 12, 2017 In research the bias does appear in what we select as criteria. Suppose an area has been occupied for a long time and there are pieces of pottery with different symbols suggesting different cultures. Larger piece of pottery might be easier to categorize and smaller pieces with less obvious decorations on them are harder to categorize. Different people might categorize the difficult to identify pieces in different ways. A good researcher clearly describes what they did. They might have a bias, but they write what that bias is. That way others can compare what they did to an article they read. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhurfjooydig Posted May 12, 2017 #365 Share Posted May 12, 2017 (edited) 19 hours ago, jmccr8 said: I provided you with 2 links about the source that you have inferred contest the definition of civilization and you have not responded by providing a direct link to the paper that disputes the currently held description. Are you going to or will you continue to avoid engaging in a reasonable discussion? jmccr8 Dude! Two hours after posting the links you're fussing that I haven't responded yet? Maybe you suffer from hurry sickness? https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-time-cure/201302/hurry-sickness I juggle a demanding job, family, social obligations, two classes, manuscript editing for a Sept. publication, and unfortunately it seems that the dissertation isn't going to write itself. This forum may be a significant part of your life but it's a tiny speck on my radar. I'll see if I can dig up the paper if / when I have time (after I respond to clearly written on-topic posts by kmt_sesh (343, 344, 345) and BTE (360) ... but you might want to restate this more clearly: 21 hours ago, jmccr8 said: have a link that describes the contention that the criteria for a civilization differs from the common accepted norm ... because, huh? This doesn't related at all to how I described the paper you're asking about: 21 hours ago, No Solid Ground said: The International Society for the Comparative Study of Civilizations holds the position that there is no consensus criteria (therefore no consensus definition) for 'civilization'. ... and the phrases I bolded in your question aren't clearly contextualized or attributed to anyone ... they are just floating. Whose "criteria for a civilization"? What "commonly accepted norm"? (not anything I suggested). How does this related to how I described the paper, if at all? Also, the two links you posted: https://networks.h-net.org/node/GROUP_NID/discussions/82452/2016-conference-international-society-comparative-study http://www.worldhistorysite.com/iscscform.html One is a call for papers and one is an application to join the ISCSC. Is there a relevant reason why you posted these? Edited May 12, 2017 by No Solid Ground Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmt_sesh Posted May 12, 2017 #366 Share Posted May 12, 2017 9 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said: I juggle a demanding job, family, social obligations, two classes, manuscript editing for a Sept. publication... See? There's your problem. I do have a highly demanding job myself, but no family and no social obligations. That tends to free up some time. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted May 12, 2017 #367 Share Posted May 12, 2017 5 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said: Dude! Two hours after posting the links you're fussing that I haven't responded yet? Maybe you suffer from hurry sickness? https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-time-cure/201302/hurry-sickness I juggle a demanding job, family, social obligations, two classes, manuscript editing for a Sept. publication, and unfortunately it seems that the dissertation isn't going to write itself. This forum may be a significant part of your life but it's a tiny speck on my radar. I'll see if I can dig up the paper if / when I have time ... but you might want to restate this more clearly: ... because, huh? This doesn't related at all to how I described the paper you're asking about: ... and the phrases I bolded in your question aren't clearly contextualized or attributed to anyone ... they are just floating. Whose "criteria for a civilization"? What "commonly accepted norm"? (not anything I suggested). How does this related to how I described the paper, if at all? Also, the two links you posted: https://networks.h-net.org/node/GROUP_NID/discussions/82452/2016-conference-international-society-comparative-study http://www.worldhistorysite.com/iscscform.html One is a call for papers and one is an application to join the ISCSC. Is there a relevant reason why you posted these? I am going to say this once,you came to the table and frivously argued about the description of "civilization" and several posters have tried to engage you in a productive manner which you avoided and babbled on about this dispute without giving any documentation to be reviewed and discussed. We all have lives so your not special and if your time is so precious then you should have provided the link asked for to save time and temper. I looked and didn't see the paper that you were on about and to show you that I have an interest I gave those links and explained at that time that I didn't see the paper that you had been talking about in hope that you would understand there WAS an interest in productive dialogue. You did spend a couple of hours being a dumba-- so It isn't that I am pressing you it was a reminder to which you apparently have no real interest in. In future should you wish to discuss something I won't bother trying to be civil if you do not give links as you waste a lot of peoples time with pointless rhetoric. Good luck and have a nice day jmccr8 . 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted May 12, 2017 #368 Share Posted May 12, 2017 1 hour ago, kmt_sesh said: See? There's your problem. I do have a highly demanding job myself, but no family and no social obligations. That tends to free up some time. You also dont post about stuff that you 'dont have the time' to back up (he still will not say what this 'publication' of his is .... maybe that give the game right away ! ) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essan Posted May 12, 2017 #369 Share Posted May 12, 2017 12 hours ago, back to earth said: You also appear to be a social type as well Appear being the operative word 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essan Posted May 12, 2017 #370 Share Posted May 12, 2017 11 hours ago, back to earth said: ( no ... before you start up ...... the bag, I mean ) Bag? What bag? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmt_sesh Posted May 13, 2017 #371 Share Posted May 13, 2017 16 hours ago, Essan said: Bag? What bag? Why, the all-purpose hippy bag, of course. BTE aways carries one when he goes out into the Outback to...um...pester kangaroos. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted May 13, 2017 #372 Share Posted May 13, 2017 (edited) Quote http://www.ancient-code.com/the-mystery-handbag-of-the-gods-depicted-in-sumer-america-and-gobekli-tepe/ The hand bags of these cultures were used for that gathering of seeds, placing them in the Agricultural age. http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-topic/45b2ae037c7b4 Edited May 13, 2017 by docyabut2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted May 13, 2017 #373 Share Posted May 13, 2017 3 hours ago, kmt_sesh said: Why, the all-purpose hippy bag, of course. BTE aways carries one when he goes out into the Outback to...um...pester kangaroos. They carry them too ... at the front . What do you mean 'pestering ' ? If you mean trying to 'bulldogging' one from off the pillion seat of a speeding offroad motorcycle ..... errrmmmm (pssst .... anyone wants to try that, here is a hint ..... kangaroos can jump barbed wire fences at high speed , motor cycles cant ! ) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted May 13, 2017 #374 Share Posted May 13, 2017 2 hours ago, docyabut2 said: The hand bags of these cultures were used for that gathering of seeds, placing them in the Agricultural age. http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-topic/45b2ae037c7b4 Yes well ... errrm did you know that before the 'agricultural age' ..... hunters and gatherers actually ate some seeds and nuts ? Unless now we are going to postulate that they always ate on the spot of harvest . What are the dates for the beginning of this 'Agricultural Age ' docy ? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted May 13, 2017 #375 Share Posted May 13, 2017 The oldest baskets found so far have been C-14 dated to around 10,000 to 12,000 years ago. I think agriculture dates to roughly around that same time period. Kind of looks like a "Chicken and Egg" thing to me. What came first... sustenance farming, or basket production? Could be either came first. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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