How will God prove himself?

[Mr Walker]

34 minutes ago, I'mConvinced said:

Well you won't find me doing the same, even though I am still not 100% convinced we can be certain he existed. 

You will find me questioning the jump from Jesus existing as a person to 'Christianity is true'.

I have the same problem  Even given personal experience of god's miracles and the power of its energy source i don't see any evidences around the stories of christs divinity.  Thus it becomes a matter for faith or belief by an individual, not an evidence based assertion.

 Christianity is a theology which began as a judaic faith incorporating elements of egyptian and babylonian theology, was  a put into the  words of a liberal judaic school of theology by christ, and was then adapted and hellenised by paul.

Then  it became the product of a misogynistic, anti  semitic, authoritative church for over a millenia. Reformation followed, as people became actually able to read and study their own copies of the bible,  Then an individualisation of interpretation by people in the 1800s with new attempts to interpret prophecy and the end times etc. during what became known as the great revival period. Finally modern social christianity and even revolutionary theology evolved.    Truth is a relative term in theology and there are many variants of christian belief

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, I'mConvinced said:

Provide an example. Someone might starve themselves to convince others of their point but I would hardly call them happy. I've never seen a happy looking starving child. Perhaps you should try it and tell me how happy you feel.

Spoken like a true, rich, healthy person. If only you had the faintest idea what it is like to be without food and without hope of getting it. 

What about those without the means to seek the knowledge we have spent years accumulating? How are they supposed to feel happy and content with a miserable existence and hideous, seemingly meaningless death that they can do nothing about?

I'll be sure to mention that to the 4 million Syrian refugees. I'm sure they'll accept their responsibility.

How blinkered are you? Have you seen so little of the world as to think money can solve these issues? Have you not heard of corruption and dictatorial regimes?

This explains it, you've been nowhere and thus seen nothing for yourself. 

First you must understand that all human emotions are chosen states of mind We construct and learn them, to use as we are taught is appropriate. External things do not make us happy or sad or angry or peaceful. These are all states of mind and our self aware consciousness is capable of constructing the state of mind we chose This is a very powerful truth   Thus hunger pain or impending death does not MAKE us unhappy it is just that faced with those realities we often choose to make ourselves feel unhappy

 Haven't you seen peole facing inevitable and painful death by, for example, cancer who simply chose not to be upset or angry or depressed or fearful.

Instead the y chose more productive and constructive emotions

I am not talking about choosing to starve i am saying that if you construct the right mindset you can be starving and yet happy You can be dying and yet happy. In pain and yet happy. Have lost a loved one or everything you own, and still feel joy and  serenity.

Don't make assumptions about me or my life  I have gone through many tragedies in our life but i have never been angry afraid grief stricken lost depressed or lonely.

I CHOOSE how i respond to lifes tragedies  it is true that one thing i have rarely been is hungry or homeless because i use my brain to organise my life so i never have to face those things.  However we HAVE lost our home and everythng we owned in a major bushfire.  We weren't homeless however because a dozen people offered us a home and the education dept found us a house inside a week   I have chosen to go hungry to see what it is like. (you get a few dollars to spend each week for a month and have t buy your food using only that budget.   i have lived alone on a desert island  for a month and  I have chosen to live without access to money for a month to see how I coped.

But you are right.  Ive organised my life so i am not forced to face hardship  We have lost loved ones to suicide murder and accident.  I have faced death from heart disease and had a triple by pass.  My wife suffered a moderate and debilitating stroke 6 months ago  and will never fully recover NONE of those things upset me, although i have  shed a legitimate tear for loved ones lost.

I KNOW that a human being can choose how to respond emotionally to any crisis event in their life  .It does take both self awareness and training however and self discipline

A very young child can learn how to construct more positive emotions.I guess i was 3 or 4 when my mother began teaching me    You are partly right,  in that, if you never become aware it is possible, you may never try it.

Thats  one reason I bang on about it so much. It isn't hard or time consuming.  It is simply resetting your mind, deliberately and consciously     

On refugees Often we are faced with events beyond our control , then we can ONLY  use our minds to improve our well being.

But most times a self aware person can see things coming and make a t least some effort to escape from the coming disaster  Even with natural disasters like the mexican earthquakes this is only the latest in many powerful and tragic earthquakes to hit mexico city ANyone who lives there is making a choice.  War is trickier but most people who are self aware and thinking about things have some warning and some options.  Hence some jews escaped germany and europe before ww2  because the y could see the coming dangers.

I base almost all my life choices on logic and common sense, so i chose to live in an area where there is a very low crime rate few natural disasters  etc Even then i get hit by a big bushfire  which was the most intense natural vegetation fire ever recorded  and lose everything but i was fully insured we were prepared for the day and escaped safely and without panic  As i recorded on national news the next day we only lost things and  thus we lost nothing.   Many of those things were irreplaceable and included family heirlooms and hundreds of thousands of uninsured antiques paintings etc  from the family  but it was not worth getting upset about their loss or losing a nights sleep about it  

  Actually not blinkered. That figure is an internationally recognised one suggested by the UN aid agencies   5% of developed income would be more than enough to prevent starvation and disease from  poor sanitation and water supplies There is more than enough food  to feed the world. in fact a lot is simply wasted.  It is the economics and greed which stops this problem being solved.

 Warfare is a difernt issue  

LOL typical reaction One doesnt have to go anywhere to know and understand the nature of the world  and its peoples. Just read and study a bit.  In fact actually going somewhere can create a false individualised /subjective  perception in your mind, whereas a comparative study and  analysis of conditions, from geopolitical so economic, to socio political, can  give a much better objective understanding.

One of the reasons we direct a  lot of our personal aid to women, is because they tend ot be disempowered yet highly motivated and competent.  Given a little capital,  they may develop mini  businesses, giving them personal independence and confidence, as well as  greater economic freedom and control over their lives     We direct our money through reputable and audited aid agencies who ensure that money goes to the specific purpose for which it is donated

And we do NOT fail to give because of excuses like corruption or  dictatorships There are ways to ensure monley goes to those who most need it.

.  . 

Edited September 23, 2017 by Mr Walker

[I'mConvinced]

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

Haven't you seen peole facing inevitable and painful death by, for example, cancer who simply chose not to be upset or angry or depressed or fearful.

A completely different thing altogether. Address the original point. Show me an example of a happy person who is starving to death.

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

One doesnt have to go anywhere to know and understand the nature of the world  and its peoples

We all know experience counts for nothing. Book learning all the way right? This is staggeringly narrow minded.

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

 It is the economics and greed which stops this problem being solved.

 Warfare is a difernt issue  

Economics, greed and warfare are the issues but throwing a little money at it should solve the problems? 

I can honestly say, and I do not say this lightly, that in my opinion you are the most condescending person I've ever met. Including myself.

It's all a choice, what a card you are. If you'd ever actually left your cosy little backwater in your first world country you might just get to see how little (none) choice many millions of people have.

 

[I'mConvinced]

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

First you must understand that all human emotions are chosen states of mind

First you must understand how untrue this is. I didn't 'choose' depressive thoughts but I removed them with a chemical re-uptake inhibitor. No amount of 'thinking' would stop my brain reabsorbing serotonin at a greatly increased rate.

You will never understand something like this without experience. Well, maybe you can as you don't seem to need or value experience, apparently.

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

We direct our money through reputable and audited aid agencies who ensure that money goes to the specific purpose for which it is donated

Have you not read where some of the billions given in aid has gone? That money was given through reputable and audited aid agencies but has simply funded civil war.

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

we do NOT fail to give because of excuses like corruption or  dictatorships

Excuses? So these aren't real concerns? 

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

In fact actually going somewhere can create a false individualised /subjective  perception in your mind, whereas a comparative study and  analysis of conditions,

You cannot have the whole picture without doing both. What kind of crazy argument are you making here? That no one should travel as it makes you deluded and is a waste of money? I don't even have words for this level of nowordsforit.

Edited September 23, 2017 by I'mConvinced

[Will Due]

2 minutes ago, I'mConvinced said:

I didn't 'choose' depressive thoughts

That's very interesting. Not to be dismissive regarding the circumstances of the condition referred to as 'depression' but personally I've dealt with it the other way around. 

It wasn't until I took full responsibility for everything that happens to me as being the result of a choice, that I began to apply it also to the realm of the mind that regulates what, and what not to think about. 

That no matter the circumstances, it's simply a choice what to think, and how to think about it.

I am not a slave to thoughts. It's just a matter of thought adjustment.

 

 

[I'mConvinced]

Just now, Will Due said:

That's very interesting. Not to be dismissive regarding the circumstances of the condition referred to as 'depression' but personally I've dealt with it the other way around.

I should have stated 'clinical depression'. You cannot think your way out of it and it isn't caused by life circumstance.

One day I was depressed and the next I wasn't. No change in circumstances, just a change in the chemical makeup of my brain brought about by a drug.

If I stop taking the drug (I have tried) the depressive state returns. Take it again and it goes away. What more proof do I need of the cause? 

[I'mConvinced]

4 minutes ago, Will Due said:

That no matter the circumstances, it's simply a choice what to think, and how to think about it.

I am not a slave to thoughts. It's just a matter of thought adjustment.

Then explain the stages of dementia and ask yourself why they 'choose' to think that way?

If you say 'healthy' brain vs 'damaged brain' then define, exactly, what that means. Some of the greatest minds in history have dealt with depressive illness of one form or another.

Depression is not 'feeling sad'.

[Will Due]

4 minutes ago, I'mConvinced said:

I should have stated 'clinical depression'. You cannot think your way out of it and it isn't caused by life circumstance.

One day I was depressed and the next I wasn't. No change in circumstances, just a change in the chemical makeup of my brain brought about by a drug.

If I stop taking the drug (I have tried) the depressive state returns. Take it again and it goes away. What more proof do I need of the cause? 

I understand. I hope you can find a way to overcome it. I see that you look at it it from the standpoint that thoughts are the result of the chemical disposition of the material brain. I look at it in reverse, that it's by the quality of the thoughts that the brain adjusts itself chemically. I have tested this. I took the position that my thoughts are capable, like medication is, to effect a change in the body and mind.

 

 

[I'mConvinced]

9 minutes ago, Will Due said:

I understand. I hope you can find a way to overcome it

You clearly don't. I have found the way and overcome it.

Unfortunately for my brother (this is a hereditory genetic disorder suffered also by my mother) he believes in your way of thinking. He remains depressed and has cut off communication with the family. He did try taking the SSRI for a bit, the change was remarkable. Then he thought he had cured himself and stopped taking them. 

This doesn't make me a materialist. It isn't a 'choice' to discover your thoughts can be governed chemicals. It's a simple experiment to find out for yourself, take some LSD and tell me your emotions aren't chemically driven.

I tend to find those who haven't experienced these things cannot even begin to bring themselves to imagine it's true.

[+Sherapy]

1 hour ago, I'mConvinced said:

I should have stated 'clinical depression'. You cannot think your way out of it and it isn't caused by life circumstance.

One day I was depressed and the next I wasn't. No change in circumstances, just a change in the chemical makeup of my brain brought about by a drug.

If I stop taking the drug (I have tried) the depressive state returns. Take it again and it goes away. What more proof do I need of the cause? 

Convinced, depression is not a condition to mess with or to let strangers on the internet belittle you or tell you can cure yourself. This is ignorance, and harmful advice; do not respond to it! 

Of course, you would not leave depression untreated and you do not have to justify or explain your heath decisions to anyone either. This is between you and your doctor. 

 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2017 by Sherapy

[+Sherapy]

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

I understand. I hope you can find a way to overcome it. I see that you look at it it from the standpoint that thoughts are the result of the chemical disposition of the material brain. I look at it in reverse, that it's by the quality of the thoughts that the brain adjusts itself chemically. I have tested this. I took the position that my thoughts are capable, like medication is, to effect a change in the body and mind.

 

 

Will, it doesn't matter how you "look" at it, you are not qualified to give medical advice and it is harmful and arrogant to belittle a poster for seeking medical advice. 

This needs to stop.

 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2017 by Sherapy

[I'mConvinced]

12 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Of course, you would not leave depression untreated and you do not have to justify or explain your heath decisions to anyone either. This is between you and your doctor. 

If I was you I would report any posters that suggest or imply you are just not able to control yourself

Thank you.  I'm not concerned about them however. My skin is far thicker than most and I've come to understand that my depression is a strength not a weakness. 

I talk about it openly because I believe it can help others. How people wish to perceive me is up to them and won't be taken to heart.

[+Sherapy]

6 minutes ago, I'mConvinced said:

Thank you.  I'm not concerned about them however. My skin is far thicker than most and I've come to understand that my depression is a strength not a weakness. 

I talk about it openly because I believe it can help others. How people wish to perceive me is up to them and won't be taken to heart.

Hugs to you.

Let's get back on topic. 

[jmccr8]

14 minutes ago, I'mConvinced said:

Thank you.  I'm not concerned about them however. My skin is far thicker than most and I've come to understand that my depression is a strength not a weakness. 

I talk about it openly because I believe it can help others. How people wish to perceive me is up to them and won't be taken to heart.

I can appreciate your strength and enjoy your responses, unfortunately the kinds of input that has suggested contrary advise is seen by others that are not as secure as yourself and just come to read what is posted and I thank you for the credible position that you hold.

jmccr8

[I'mConvinced]

4 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

contrary advise is seen by others that are not as secure as yourself

Sherapy made this point to me as well and I'm in agreement. 

I never take to the report button myself as I always want the debate to continue where possible. This forgets those that may be vulnerable to this kind of dangerous thinking and so I'll try to use it in future.

[jmccr8]

3 minutes ago, I'mConvinced said:

Sherapy made this point to me as well and I'm in agreement. 

I never take to the report button myself as I always want the debate to continue where possible. This forgets those that may be vulnerable to this kind of dangerous thinking and so I'll try to use it in future.

Yes I am quite thick skinned myself and tend to just go head to head without thinking to report and will be doing so myself as some of the people we debate have a tendency to use it when they get caught with their pants down and rather than admit that they are fallible try to get their confronters banned.

jmccr8

[+Sherapy]

21 minutes ago, I'mConvinced said:

Sherapy made this point to me as well and I'm in agreement. 

I never take to the report button myself as I always want the debate to continue where possible. This forgets those that may be vulnerable to this kind of dangerous thinking and so I'll try to use it in future.

Quite frankly, it is often those that are giving the horrible advice that are at the highest risk for taking uninformed, unwarranted, harmful advice from strangers off the internet. 

 

Edited September 23, 2017 by Sherapy

[Will Due]

You don't like me very much do you.

 

 

[Saru]

Best to avoid giving unqualified medical advice, even if it is well-intended - it can often do more harm than good.

[I'mConvinced]

4 minutes ago, Will Due said:

You don't like me very much do you.

 

 

Who? Me?

Like you? You don't bother me either way. Others raised a good point about your posting however and I agree with them.

 

[+Hammerclaw]

13 minutes ago, Will Due said:

You don't like me very much do you.

 

 

She's been through a bad time, Will. She doesn't mean any harm. What we read online doesn't convey how serious someone's state of mind is. I'm guilty of giving bad advice. Wish I could take it all back.

[Will Due]

I was sharing my experience with handling depression. I never said stop taking your meds. Did I?

I suffered greatly from a depressed state of mind. So great that I succumbed to numbing myself daily with many cocktails of various forms of elicit drugs.

They definitely made me feel better, except that I knew it wasn't right. I knew it was artificial. 

Since then, I've gained control of my depression by stopping the use of medication and replaced it with simply choosing to think otherwise.

That's all I said about it. 

 

Edited September 23, 2017 by Will Due

[I'mConvinced]

2 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Since then, I've gained control of my depression by stopping the use of medication and replaced it with simply choosing to think otherwise.

That's all I said about it. Where you get off that I'm telling you to stop taking your prescribed medication is pretty interesting

I didn't say you did but I can't even be sure who you are addressing here? 

I think your implications were that all depression can be solved with thinking. The following supports this:

5 minutes ago, Will Due said:

I've gained control of my depression by stopping the use of medication and replaced it with simply choosing to think otherwise

 

2 hours ago, Will Due said:

That no matter the circumstances, it's simply a choice what to think, and how to think about it.

I am not a slave to thoughts. It's just a matter of thought adjustment.

I mean you don't directly say anything but the implication is strong. Either way, you're entitled to be wrong ;-).

[Will Due]

 

Just now, I'mConvinced said:

I didn't say you did but I can't even be sure who you are addressing here? 

I think your implications were that all depression can be solved with thinking. The following supports this:

 

I mean you don't directly say anything but the implication is strong. Either way, you're entitled to be wrong ;-).

Like i said, I know what being depressed is like. I have great compassion for those who suffer because of it, like I did.

Taking medication (in my case dope) helps to work through it. Without dope, I wouldn't have been able to deal with it. That's my excuse anyway.

But I eventually rid myself of the dependency on drugs. I shared that with you for whatever it might be worth to you because it was terrible to be addicted to using drugs to influence the unfortunate way I tended to use my mind to think negatively all the time.

All this about the use of medication stands in contrast to those medications that can be used to help to alleviate the pain and suffering as a result of the diseases that afflict the body. Especially for healing purposes.

 

 

[+Sherapy]

27 minutes ago, Will Due said:

I was sharing my experience with handling depression. I never said stop taking your meds. Did I?

I suffered greatly from a depressed state of mind. So great that I succumbed to numbing myself daily with many cocktails of various forms of elicit drugs.

They definitely made me feel better, except that I knew it wasn't right. I knew it was artificial. 

Since then, I've gained control of my depression by stopping the use of medication and replaced it with simply choosing to think otherwise.

That's all I said about it. 

 

It doesn't sound like you were diagnosed as clinically depressed, it just sounds like you were doing drugs and mentally justifying the need for them, and got to a place this no longer worked for you. Which I commend you for and had you have shared this from the get go I would have hearted your inner resolve. 

Convinced is not you. 

By the way, I do like you Will, that is why I said something to you; you are better than you sometimes post.

 

Edited September 23, 2017 by Sherapy