Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -

confederate monument removed with snipers


OverSword

Recommended Posts

Quote

 

On the same day that some southern states were honoring their rebel heritage, masked workers in New Orleans dismantled a monument to that past — chunk by chunk, under darkness and the protection of police snipers.

“We will no longer allow the Confederacy to literally be put on a pedestal,” Mayor Mitch Landrieu (D) said after a 19th-century obelisk honoring what the mayor called “white supremacists” was taken down early Monday.

The Battle of Liberty Place monument, which honors members of the Crescent City White League who died trying to overthrow the New Orleans government after the Civil War, was the first of four statues linked to the Confederacy that are set to be torn down in New Orleans.

 

Link

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Confederate Flag is gone and next the monuments. Is this good or bad for future culture?

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So conflicted about this kind of story. <_<

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This monument was dedicated to a battle that took place years after the war was over so my question is WTF was it doing up in the first place?

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, OverSword said:

This monument was dedicated to a battle that took place years after the war was over so my question is WTF was it doing up in the first place?

Well...

Quote

In 1891, the city erected the Liberty Monument to commemorate and praise the insurrection from the Democratic Party point of view, which at the time was in firm political control of the city and state and was in the process of disenfranchising most blacks. The white marble obelisk was placed at a prominent location on Canal Street. In 1932, the city added an inscription that expressed a white supremacist view.

Ah, the shaky origins of the Democratic party.

Quote

In 1974, the rethinking of race relations after the Civil Rights Movement caused the city to add a marker near the monument explaining that the inscription did not express current philosophy.

So it was intended to be a Democratic monument to White supremacy, according to Wiki. The Dems tried to retroactively change the meaning of the monument but it doesn't seem to stand for anything in line with today's progressive values. I stand with the mayor on this one - leave that kind of history in the past. It certainly isn't doing the Democratic party any favors in 2017.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dunno.... I am of the opinion that the Good Guys won the Civil War, and that caused me all kinds of trouble when I lived in the South.

However.... Snipers.

I have heard of that elsewhere, and it indicates a sereious issue with those who are trying to erase history. 

What exactly are they trying to replace it with? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, AnchorSteam said:

I dunno.... I am of the opinion that the Good Guys won the Civil War, and that caused me all kinds of trouble when I lived in the South.

However.... Snipers.

I have heard of that elsewhere, and it indicates a sereious issue with those who are trying to erase history. 

What exactly are they trying to replace it with? 

 

Hadn't you heard?  They're attempting to replace it with a "new and improved" neo-Confederate movement of states.  The proof is the nullification of Federal law that they are increasingly engaged in.  Being a native of Alabama, I can tell them that we've seen this movie and it doesn't end well for anyone.  And to prove my sincerity, I am declaring today that Alabama is a sanctuary state for second amendment rights. :gun::w00t:

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yup.... here we go again.

:wacko::ph34r:

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"If we erase history we have no history." - ME

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

I dunno.... I am of the opinion that the Good Guys won the Civil War, and that caused me all kinds of trouble when I lived in the South.

However.... Snipers.

I have heard of that elsewhere, and it indicates a sereious issue with those who are trying to erase history. 

What exactly are they trying to replace it with? 

 

13 minutes ago, Princess Serenity said:

"If we erase history we have no history." - ME

Who is erasing history? 

Books are made for that specific reason, to remember

Obelisks and monuments are made to celebrate 

I don't see what there's to celebrate in white supremacism. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Parsec said:

 

Who is erasing history? 

Books are made for that specific reason, to remember

Obelisks and monuments are made to celebrate 

I don't see what there's to celebrate in white supremacism. 

Are they?

you could just as easily say books are made to celebrate, and obelisks are made to remember.

would you call a cenotaph a celebration of war? 

I don't know how it is in the US, but here in every town there's a memorial to the war dead. They're sure as Hell not celebrations (despite the idiotic use of language courtesy of the press, one of whom wished audiences a Happy ANZAC Day the other day). 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And, importantly, unless I've gotten the wrong Ned of the stick, the statue being removed was about a revolt against white Supremecy not in favour of it. 

A revolt against the 19th century democrat party.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Are they?

you could just as easily say books are made to celebrate, and obelisks are made to remember.

would you call a cenotaph a celebration of war? 

I don't know how it is in the US, but here in every town there's a memorial to the war dead. They're sure as Hell not celebrations (despite the idiotic use of language courtesy of the press, one of whom wished audiences a Happy ANZAC Day the other day). 

If we want to be nitpicking we could say that usually cenotaphs celebrate: 1) the deads fallen for their own country 2) the country itself (especially when victorious) 3) thus the winning side and its victory.  

But I see your point and agree, they are also cautionary. 

 

Is this specific case, based solely on the info provided in this thread (but the wiki article seems to agree) it looks like the obelisk was indeed celebrating white supremacism.

 

I don't agree about books: monuments are quick mementos "lest we forget", but books are the ones explaining why, what, who and when we should never forget. 

Sure, one has to read them, but this is another story. 

 

My point with @AnchorSteam and @Princess Serenity was that removing an obelisk (especially in this case) doesn't automatically equate to erasing history: history books are still there, libraries are still open and featuring those books, that are freely and easily accessible, if someone wants to. 

Further, today we also have tv and internet.

I won't touch here the topics of historical revisionism, reliability of the sources, uncritical acceptance and critical thinking. Of course we have to pay attention to what we read, but first, we have to take a book in our hands to get to that point. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Parsec said:

If we want to be nitpicking we could say ... 

Nit picking is exactly what this becomes when people try to re-define everything just to win an argument.

 

If I actually cared, I would have more to say about this, but the item that conserns me is this-

A bunch of armed men oversaw the destruction of a block of stone that hardly anyone knew existed before they did it. Thus, they accomplised the exact opposite of what the stated aim was.

And they also duplicated the appearance and activity of ISIS in Syria and elsewhere. Say what you will, but I bet that THEY had all sorts of ways to justify what they did, too. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you wanted to be really nit picky, you could discuss the nature of verbs and the emotions they evoke.

celebrate, inherently happy.

commemorate, inherently maudlin. 

Cenotaph as a place of reflection, requires a reflective and somewhat maudlin verb.

 

maybe in America you use your memorials to the honoured dead in order to "celebrate" things. To do a bit of flag waving and "yay we're the greatest!"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, AnchorSteam said:

Nit picking is exactly what this becomes when people try to re-define everything just to win an argument.

 

If I actually cared, I would have more to say about this, but the item that conserns me is this-

A bunch of armed men oversaw the destruction of a block of stone that hardly anyone knew existed before they did it. Thus, they accomplised the exact opposite of what the stated aim was.

And they also duplicated the appearance and activity of ISIS in Syria and elsewhere. Say what you will, but I bet that THEY had all sorts of ways to justify what they did, too. 

 

11 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

If you wanted to be really nit picky, you could discuss the nature of verbs and the emotions they evoke.

celebrate, inherently happy.

commemorate, inherently maudlin. 

Cenotaph as a place of reflection, requires a reflective and somewhat maudlin verb.

 

maybe in America you use your memorials to the honoured dead in order to "celebrate" things. To do a bit of flag waving and "yay we're the greatest!"

Ok, I guess I was too verbose and the message got lost. 

Apparently no one went past "being nitpicking", since in the following sentence I agreed with you Sir Wearer. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, AnchorSteam said:

Nit picking is exactly what this becomes when people try to re-define everything just to win an argument.

 

If I actually cared, I would have more to say about this, but the item that conserns me is this-

A bunch of armed men oversaw the destruction of a block of stone that hardly anyone knew existed before they did it. Thus, they accomplised the exact opposite of what the stated aim was.

And they also duplicated the appearance and activity of ISIS in Syria and elsewhere. Say what you will, but I bet that THEY had all sorts of ways to justify what they did, too. 

So, what are you implying exactly? 

Who are "they"? 

Did the police officers/the snipers duplicate the appearance of ISIS in Syria? 

Or are you referring to their puppet masters? 

And which "they" had all sorts of ways to justify? XIX century racist democrats? 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

If you wanted to be really nit picky, you could discuss the nature of verbs and the emotions they evoke.

celebrate, inherently happy.

commemorate, inherently maudlin. 

Cenotaph as a place of reflection, requires a reflective and somewhat maudlin verb.

 

maybe in America you use your memorials to the honoured dead in order to "celebrate" things. To do a bit of flag waving and "yay we're the greatest!"

You commemorate your dead ones because you won. 

If instead the other side would have won (whichever it is), you wouldn't cry any fallen soldier because they would have been on the wrong side of History. 

 

You seem to be under the impression I hail from the US. 

Coming from Italy, I can tell you we unfortunately know our fare share of deads on the wrong side of the barricade.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/26/2017 at 2:55 PM, Parsec said:

Obelisks and monuments are made to celebrate .

I believe the word you are looking for is venerate.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In the Chickamauga/Chattanooga National Parks there are monuments to commemorate the deaths of Union soldiers during the Civil War. There are plaques that tell of the hard fought battles that took place on those grounds, the hardships they encountered and their success. They are all over the south. I have yet to hear of anyone who has demanded they be removed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Michelle said:

In the Chickamauga/Chattanooga National Parks there are monuments to commemorate the deaths of Union soldiers during the Civil War. There are plaques that tell of the hard fought battles that took place on those grounds, the hardships they encountered and their success. They are all over the south. I have yet to hear of anyone who has demanded they be removed.

Quote from the article: "The Battle of Liberty Place monument, which honors members of the Crescent City White League who died trying to overthrow the New Orleans government after the Civil War."

My emphasis.

This is a bit different.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Likely Guy said:

Quote from the article: "The Battle of Liberty Place monument, which honors members of the Crescent City White League who died trying to overthrow the New Orleans government after the Civil War."

My emphasis.

This is a bit different.

This isn't the only one though. New Orleans plans to take down three other monuments. All across the US people are trying to remove monuments or change the names of buildings to something more "appropriate" because their namesakes owned slaves or fought in the Civil War for the south. There were quite a few presidents who owned slaves, including the father of our nation George Washington.

I'm not in favor of diluting history. Those engraved plaques peeked my interest in history at a very early age. Standing on the same grounds where something so poignant occurred had a huge impact on me. You can't get that from a book.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Michelle said:

This isn't the only one though. New Orleans plans to take down three other monuments. All across the US people are trying to remove monuments or change the names of buildings to something more "appropriate" because their namesakes owned slaves or fought in the Civil War for the south. There were quite a few presidents who owned slaves, including the father of our nation George Washington.

I'm not in favor of diluting history. Those engraved plaques peeked my interest in history at a very early age. Standing on the same grounds where something so poignant occurred had a huge impact on me. You can't get that from a book.

I agree. I'm a bit of a drag to go on holidays with for some people because I insist on visiting every museum and historical site that I can.

It's just that some events deserve commemoration while others do not. This, in a way, is like building a monument on the site where the barn stood in which John Wilkes Booth died.

Edited by Likely Guy
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Likely Guy said:

I agree. I'm a bit of a drag to go on holidays with for some people because I insist on visiting every museum and historical site that I can.

It's just that some events deserve commemoration while others do not. This, in a way, is like building a monument on the site where the barn stood in which John Wilkes Boothe died.

You too? :lol:

It's a part of history. I would be fine with a statue of Boothe, with an explanation on the plaque of how our world was shaped and his contribution.  Auschwitz is now a tourist attraction. It doesn't honor the Nazis. It's remembrance. I don't see the difference.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Michelle said:

You too? :lol:

It's a part of history. I would be fine with a statue of Boothe, with an explanation on the plaque of how our world was shaped and his contribution.  Auschwitz is now a tourist attraction. It doesn't honor the Nazis. It's remembrance. I don't see the difference.

Yet again, the building in which Hitler was born, still stands. There is no plaque, monument or statue (rightly so in my opinion) that designates it as such.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.