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The Forgotten Genocide of Armenians


ellapenella

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what happened in 1915 and why do Turks deny it was a genocide?

The European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) has ruled it is not a crime to deny mass killings of Armenians by Ottoman Turkey in 1915 was a "genocide"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/11373115/Amal-Clooneys-latest-case-Why-Turkey-wont-talk-about-the-Armenian-genocide.html

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SMH ... here's much more you do not know ...

~

  • The Armenian Revolutionary Federation Dashnag Manifesto PDF link
  • Fact Check Armenia Org link

~

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what are you trying to say? that they were not the first Christian country that  genocide was done to them by Muslims?

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What are you trying to propound ? Why are you so insistent on lying for the worth of your lack of faith for the truth ?

~

 

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55 minutes ago, third_eye said:

What are you trying to propound ? Why are you so insistent on lying for the worth of your lack of faith for the truth ?

~

 

huh? I'm not lying I'm learning.

eta

Oh & by the way, Truth is what happened and it did happen to the first Christian nation.

Edited by Ellapennella
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45 minutes ago, third_eye said:

What are you trying to propound ? Why are you so insistent on lying for the worth of your lack of faith for the truth ?

~

 

 

Your first link seems to be stating categorically, that what happened to the Armenians in the Ottoman empire was a direct result of an Armenian uprising or insurgency against Turkey/the OE?  I'm just trying to be clear about this.  I actually understand the tendency to recoil at the fast and loose use of the term "genocide".  Today's UN-approved definition of that term is much more "inclusive" than the original meaning.  But if half a million or more people died during that conflict, then there should be clear evidence of the conditions under which they perished.  For example, mass graves were found.  Civilian noncombatants in mass graves do not sound like an insurgency, but a slaughter of a hated group.

So could you provide a clearer statement of your meaning from those links? Thank you.

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6 minutes ago, and then said:

Your first link seems to be stating categorically, that what happened to the Armenians in the Ottoman empire was a direct result of an Armenian uprising or insurgency against Turkey/the OE?  I'm just trying to be clear about this.  I actually understand the tendency to recoil at the fast and loose use of the term "genocide".  Today's UN-approved definition of that term is much more "inclusive" than the original meaning.  But if half a million or more people died during that conflict, then there should be clear evidence of the conditions under which they perished.  For example, mass graves were found.  Civilian noncombatants in mass graves do not sound like an insurgency, but a slaughter of a hated group.

So could you provide a clearer statement of your meaning from those links? Thank you.

The UN's definition of genocide has remained the same since 1948. The actions of the Ottoman Empire against the Armenians easily meets this definition.

The links are trash. The second link is just denial site in the same vain as holocaust denial.

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In October of 2007, as the U.S. House of Representatives debated whether to pass a resolution specifically condemning the Armenian genocide of 1915, in those words, Samantha Power (then a foreign policy advisor on Barack Obama's 2008 presidential campaign) argued in the Oct. 29, 2007, issue of TIME that the House should do so. Even though it may have seemed that there was too much at stake regarding U.S.-Turkish relations — " Some 70% of U.S. air cargo en route to Iraq passes through Turkey, as does about one-third of the fuel used by the U.S. military there," she explained — she argued that the consequences of Turkish anger over such an action would be minimal:

The U.S. brought Turkey into NATO, built up its military and backed its membership in the European Union. Washington granted most-favored-nation trading status to Turkey, resulting in some $7 billion in annual trade between the two countries and $2 billion in U.S. investments there. Only Israel and Egypt outrank Turkey as recipients of U.S. foreign assistance. And...for all the help Turkey has given the U.S. concerning Iraq, Ankara turned down Washington's request to use Turkish bases to launch the Iraq invasion, and it ignored Washington's protests by massing 60,000 troops at the Iraq border this month as a prelude to a widely expected attack in Iraqi Kurdistan. In other words, while Turkey may invoke the genocide resolution as grounds for ignoring U.S. wishes, it has a longer history of snubbing Washington when it wants to.

The U.S. House Committee on Foreign Affairs voted to pass the resolution 27-21, but it didn't make it to the House floor for a full vote. The same thing happened in 2010.

Still, Barack Obama broke his campaign promise to call the killings "genocide," referring to the incident in a speech for Armenian Genocide Remembrance Day as "the first mass atrocity of the 20th century." At least 26 countries have recognized the "Armenian genocide" as such, according to the Armenian National Institute.

As the world still comes to grips with what happened in 1915, Balakian sums up one reason the effort to do so matters: "Unresolved history is too big a burden to carry."

 

http://time.com/4748833/the-promise-armenia-1915-history/

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45 minutes ago, Imaginarynumber1 said:

The UN's definition of genocide has remained the same since 1948. The actions of the Ottoman Empire against the Armenians easily meets this definition.

The links are trash. The second link is just denial site in the same vain as holocaust denial.

So, the links that third_eye provided are not to be taken as fact?

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3 hours ago, Ellapennella said:

what happened in 1915 and why do Turks deny it was a genocide?

The European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) has ruled it is not a crime to deny mass killings of Armenians by Ottoman Turkey in 1915 was a "genocide"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/11373115/Amal-Clooneys-latest-case-Why-Turkey-wont-talk-about-the-Armenian-genocide.html

I don't understand your reason for this topic. 

Are you asking why Turkey denies it was a genocide (it doesn't deny it happened) or why don't US and UK recognise it as such? 

Turkey denies it because it's an uncomfortable stain that doesn't bode well with their narrative. 

Why US does the same? 

Possibly geographical interest and politics. 

And of course hypocrisy. 

 

1 hour ago, Ellapennella said:

huh? I'm not lying I'm learning.

eta

Oh & by the way, Truth is what happened and it did happen to the first Christian nation.

 

3 hours ago, Ellapennella said:

Armenia was the first Christian country? I did not know this.

Yes, it was, but 1700 years ago. 

A lot of things have changed since then. 

It would be anachronistic and historically incorrect to state that "it happened to the first Christian nation". 

It didn't. It happened to Ottoman citizens of Armenian ethnicity. 

It would be like saying that an Italian (or a German or a French or a Libyan) is a Roman Empire's citizen. He's clearly not, unless he'd lived at least 1500 years ago. 

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10 hours ago, Ellapennella said:

I'm not lying I'm learning.

Fine, this too has nothing to do with Christianity, even if or so ... that there too are inconclusive by any means ...

Quote

 

For centuries, historians have widely accepted the argument that Armenia was the first Christian nation. This important claim has become a source of national pride for Armenians and has remained virtually undisputed for centuries -- until now. 

Armenians will likely be up at arms when they learn that a new book -- “Abyssinian Christianity: The First Christian Nation?” -- is challenging their claim, presenting the possibility that Abyssinia (modern-day Ethiopia and Eritrea) was the first Christian nation.

 

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Quote

 

Armenia was the first Christian nation in the list that accompanied the question, but which country was actually first? The first Christian nation was Armenia in 301, Ethiopia was probably second in about 325, and Georgia was third, somewhere around 337. All three are proud to be the first Christian nation.

It’s possible that everyone is right, if they are using different criteria.

This question was about the date on which the governments of those countries first adopted Christianity as the official state religion. The date on which Christianity became prevalent among the people would be earlier than that, and the arrival of the apostle would be earlier still. (All three countries were evangelized in apostolic times by apostles.) If you use either of those two criteria, the countries could come in a different order.

 

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What I do take issue is here is this ....

12 hours ago, Ellapennella said:

Armenia was the first Christian country? I did not know this.

This implies that if this were not the case among the weights and lengths of the measure, it would not have been the core of your concerns here, if not in fact the accusations of genocide brought up would have your stamp of approval, if not your outright expressed seal of consent, if these Armenians were Muslims as you initially believed ...

~

10 hours ago, and then said:

So could you provide a clearer statement of your meaning from those links? Thank you.

The facts were and was presented quite clearly with the links ol'boy ... problem is you wants them to lean on your pillars of 'Justice' as it applies only to your strictly defined propositions of what you want the results of a 'Judgements' to be ...

The 'Dashnag Manifesto' isn't some study after the fact ... its a proclamation of the Armenian Question by the First Prime Minister of the Armenian Republic

... no less ...

 

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The numbers are very much gleaned to be skewed and manipulated as much as the truth if not the history, much less the 'Facts'

Another point is , to put this on the same measure with the Jewish Holocaust is to demean the memory of those Jews, not to mention scars and defaces the uniqueness of the Holocaust   

~

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Places like Armenia and Georgia have more traditional Christian customs and they are pretty old. The further east you go, the older Christianity is in Europe.

What you think or been taught is the Roman or mordern Christianity.  Im not sure why people arnt bening taught about coptics and other Chrstian groups. But thats another time

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5 hours ago, third_eye said:

Fine, this too has nothing to do with Christianity, even if or so ... that there too are inconclusive by any means ...

 

What I do take issue is here is this ....

This implies that if this were not the case among the weights and lengths of the measure, it would not have been the core of your concerns here, if not in fact the accusations of genocide brought up would have your stamp of approval, if not your outright expressed seal of consent, if these Armenians were Muslims as you initially believed ...

 

 

 

I see a pattern of what's going on in the world  and I understand why Israel & Christians must stand together.

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1 hour ago, Mr.United_Nations said:

Places like Armenia and Georgia have more traditional Christian customs and they are pretty old. The further east you go, the older Christianity is in Europe.

What you think or been taught is the Roman or mordern Christianity.  Im not sure why people arnt bening taught about coptics and other Chrstian groups. But thats another time

We're aware of the Coptic Christians though I was not aware that the Coptic Christian were the first Christian Nation?

eta

No one has tried to hide anything about the Coptic's where I think Saint Anthony  began but history is not being truthful about what Muslims did to the Armenians & I think the Greeks too.

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Just now, Ellapennella said:

I see a pattern of what's going on in the world  and I understand why Israel & Christians must stand together.

You are filling in the patterns and joining the dots at your own whim and fancies. Everybody has to stand, not only together but by each other.

Its bad enough you add your tinge of Political slant to everything, specially when and where none is evident, but that you slurs JC's teachings and good repute in the mix is abhorrent. On top of that you are giving good Christians everywhere a bad name is what you are doing, just sayin'

~

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Just now, third_eye said:

You are filling in the patterns and joining the dots at your own whim and fancies. Everybody has to stand, not only together but by each other.

Its bad enough you add your tinge of Political slant to everything, specially when and where none is evident, but that you slurs JC's teachings and good repute in the mix is abhorrent. On top of that you are giving good Christians everywhere a bad name is what you are doing, just sayin'

~

Those people do not deserve to be forgotten. The truth is being told to the world. The timing is justified as well.

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Just now, Ellapennella said:

Those people do not deserve to be forgotten. The truth is being told to the world. The timing is justified as well.

Now there you go again ... who sayeth that they be forgotten ?

Its not only the when, but the how and why with the what ... but then again that's between you and your good 'Lord' ...

that's all on you, the what. why. where and how ...

~

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3 minutes ago, third_eye said:

Now there you go again ... who sayeth that they be forgotten ?

Its not only the when, but the how and why with the what ... but then again that's between you and your good 'Lord' ...

that's all on you, the what. why. where and how ...

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they also subjected Armenians, who they viewed as “infidels,” to unequal and unjust treatment. Christians had to pay higher taxes than Muslims, for example, and they had very few political and legal rights.

In spite of these obstacles, the Armenian community thrived under Ottoman rule. They tended to be better educated and wealthier than their Turkish neighbors, who in turn tended to resent their success. This resentment was compounded by suspicions that the Christian Armenians would be more loyal to Christian governments (that of the Russians, for example, who shared an unstable border with Turkey) than they were to the Ottoman caliphate.

http://www.history.com/topics/armenian-genocide

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

they also subjected Armenians, who they viewed as “infidels,” to unequal and unjust treatment. Christians had to pay higher taxes than Muslims, for example, and they had very few political and legal rights.

Your point being ?

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The first persecution of Christians organised by the Roman government took place under the emperor Nero in 64 AD after the Great Fire of Rome. With the passage in 313 AD of the Edict of Milan, anti-Christian policies directed against Christians by the Roman government ceased.

 

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Medieval antisemitism - Wikipedia

Jump to Expulsions from England, France, Germany, Spain and Portugal - Only a few expulsions of the Jews are described in this ... In the Middle Ages in Europe ... There were particular outbursts of riotous persecution in the Rhineland ...

The Persecution Of The Jewish People In The Middle Ages - YESNet

www.yesnet.yk.ca/schools/projects/middleages/persecution/persecution.html
In the Middle Ages Christianity was the foundational religion of Europe. The Jewish people were viewed differently by Christian people and they were treated as ...

Were the baptized Christians of Europe ripe for the pagan nationalism of .... Several Polish noblemen of the Middle Ages showed special favor to Jews who ...

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Anti-Protestantism originated in a reaction by the Catholic Church against the Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. Protestants were denounced as heretics and subject to persecution in those territories, such as Spain, Italy and the Netherlands, by the Inquisition, in which the Catholics were the dominant power.

 

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THE PERSECUTION OF THE JEWS IN THE ROMAN EMPIRE (300-438)

vlib.iue.it/carrie/texts/carrie_books/seaver/text.html
The complete text of The Persecution of Jews in the Roman Empire (300-438) by James Everett Seaver, first published as Kansas University Humanistic Studies ...

Why Did the Romans Persecute Christians? - Patheos

www.patheos.com/blogs/euangelion/2015/.../why-did-the-romans-persecute-christians...
Oct 12, 2015 - The Christ-believers who were persecuted under Nero in the ... State: Christians, Jews, and Civic Authorities in 1 Thessalonians, Romans, and ...

Persecution in the Early Church: Did You Know? | Christian History

www.christianitytoday.com › Christian History › Issue 27: Persecution in the Early Church
Persecution did not begin with the Roman authorities. The New Testament writings tell of fratricidal strife between Jews and Christians, the latter challenging the ...

 

~

So where does your little drag net of accusations stops whence it knoweth not when it starts ?

~

Edited by third_eye
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8 minutes ago, third_eye said:

Your point being ?

 

So where does your little drag net of accusations stops whence it knoweth not when it starts ?

 

Genocide of the Jews and of Christians took place and I didn't know that Muslims committed Genocide on the Armenians & Greeks who were Christians  because it was ignored and not talked about. 

eta

it can not be denied any longer. it happened.

Edited by Ellapennella
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7 hours ago, Ellapennella said:

Those people do not deserve to be forgotten. The truth is being told to the world. The timing is justified as well.

So why Trump didn't say anything about it, in the same manner of all his predecessors? 

I'd say a very bad timing on his part, if we have to follow your train of though. 

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7 hours ago, Ellapennella said:

Genocide of the Jews and of Christians took place and I didn't know that Muslims committed Genocide on the Armenians & Greeks who were Christians  because it was ignored and not talked about. 

eta

it can not be denied any longer. it happened.

Ignored by who? 

You? 

Only because you ignored it and didn't talk about it in your small circle, it doesn't mean that everybody ignored it as well. 

It's a well known episode and you can normally find it in the school books on this side of the pond. 

 

By the way the only one that, yet again, ignored it, is the President of the United States. 

 

What can't be denied? 

Since you just mixed Jews and Christians I don't know what are you referring to. 

The Armenian genocide? 

No one is denying it. 

Even the Turks say they killed them. 

The matter of discussion, besides the number of people killed, is terminological

We say it was a genocide. 

Turks say it was "just" a massacre. 

Genocide implies the planned will to exterminate a specific ethnicity. 

 

Is it clearer now? 

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