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Mr. Box

Freemasonry and its shadow

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If I had a question in the 18th century, "Who are the Masons?", I would answer, "People who concerned not only with questions of morality and enlightenment but with questions of life and death." I apologize to all Masonic brethren.

If you ask Mason, "What is Freemasonry now?", he would say that all the goals are fulfilled by Freemasonry, and their task now is to keep the intellectual flame. Today, if you carefully listen to the Freemasons, the Lodge is an intellectual club which is still trying to maintain a passion for discussions about the most important ideas in human life.

Freemasonry has lost the Regal Position that was once occupied.

This brotherhood still has a lot of controversies and passions from both sides: from brothers of various statutes, and from the inhabitants. Various lodges and statutes, at times, are disparate and conflicting organizations, arguing and accusing each other that they have deviated from the chosen path of the ancients.

The origin of Freemasonry has no single pillar on which you can rely. They attribute to themselves the ancient origin that dates to ancient Egypt and even back to King Solomon (!). But it's impossible to deny their huge contribution to the history of Western Civilization.

Their symbols radiate the depths of mystery and magnificence, their ideas are powerful. Lodges attracted the attention of villains and the most worthy men. The names of the masons shine in the history books and encyclopedias. And still, society is hostile to them. Villains may belong to a Masonic Lodge, but such Lodge is usually called as "Wild Lodge", and has no recognition from other statutes.

Modern historians agree that History is a countless number of snakes, creeping in all possible directions and intertwining among each other. Historical processes in most cases are beyond the man, but until a moment, when the human finds the key to them and creates a snake; the human makes the man-made historical process (!) and thus becoming a god.

How do you think the Freemasons have some keys to History? Or their centuries-old presence in politics, religion, and culture is a historical privilege?

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1 hour ago, Mr. Box said:

Modern historians agree that History is a countless number of snakes, creeping in all possible directions and intertwining among each other. Historical processes in most cases are beyond the man, but until a moment, when the human finds the key to them and creates a snake; the human makes the man-made historical process (!) and thus becoming a god.

I can assure you this is not the case.

I'm not sure what your logorrhea is trying to communicate, but out of respect to my profession, I want to clearly identify this bit as utter uninformed, ignorant hokum, lest some person mistake you as knowledgable in the field and take this trash seriously.

--Jaylemurph 

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4 hours ago, Mr. Box said:

How do you think the Freemasons have some keys to History? Or their centuries-old presence in politics, religion, and culture is a historical privilege?

I recommend you read:

The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries by David Ulancey

... and

No Solid Ground by Jeffrey Joe Miller

... and after reading them, research the ancient Chinese secret society known as the Hung League.

After doing this your understanding of the Freemasons will likely be clear.

---

Hint:

In the Hung League initiation ceremony, inductees must answer the mysterious question: “Do you know how many plants there were?” with “In one pot were 36 and in the other 72 plants, together 108 … the red bamboo from Canton is rare in the world. In the groves are 36 and 72. Who in the world knows the meaning of this? When we have set to work we'll know the secret.” 

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So an organisation that dates from, perhpas the 1400s is responsible for All History?

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44 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

So an organisation that dates from, perhpas the 1400s is responsible for All History?

....it's all a dodge the true hidden hand was the

 
 
International Order of Friendly Sons of the Raccoons
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6 hours ago, Mr. Box said:

If I had a question in the 18th century, "Who are the Masons?", I would answer, "People who concerned not only with questions of morality and enlightenment but with questions of life and death." I apologize to all Masonic brethren.

( Quoting probs )

Lets qualify that by adding 'the mysteries' of life and death.  Also there were and still are many different types of Freemasons, the answer would depend on the type. The more 'outer school' is concerned with 'how should a young man make his way in the world considering rights and morals.  The more esoteric  schools of FM are more concerned with the 'mystery traditions' , eg;

 

51LJ%2Bhh61BL._SX311_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

If you ask Mason,

"What is Freemasonry now?", he would say that all the goals are fulfilled by Freemasonry, and their task now is to keep the intellectual flame. Today, if you carefully listen to the Freemasons, the Lodge is an intellectual club which is still trying to maintain a passion for discussions about the most important ideas in human life.

Again,   it depends on the Lodge and the type of FM ;   nearly all I encountered in Blue Lodge say their work is charitable ... thats the main  focus, fraternity and charity.  Red Lodge is more esoteric.

As far as intellectual subjects go , see   Quatuor Coronati Lodge 

" They insisted on using an evidence-based approach to the study of masonic history. As such, their approach was new and unusual, and they intended that the results should "replace the imaginative writings of earlier authors on the history of Freemasonry."[2] This began what is now called the "authentic school" of Masonic research.[2]

In addition to quarterly meetings where papers are delivered and the presenters questioned, the lodge publishes yearly transactions titled Ars Quatuor Coronatorum and maintains the Quatuor Coronati Correspondence Circle (QCCC) to allow participation from masons all over the world.[1] "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quatuor_Coronati_Lodge

and their Index of papers ;     http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/aqc/index.html

 

Freemasonry has lost the Regal Position that was once occupied.

Indeed !  Old school now , other similar but 'updated' organisations have taken the place.

This brotherhood still has a lot of controversies and passions from both sides: from brothers of various statutes, and from the inhabitants. Various lodges and statutes, at times, are disparate and conflicting organizations, arguing and accusing each other that they have deviated from the chosen path of the ancients.

That started just after its inception, but has increased as time went on.

 

The origin of Freemasonry has no single pillar on which you can rely. They attribute to themselves the ancient origin that dates to ancient Egypt and even back to King Solomon (!). But it's impossible to deny their huge contribution to the history of Western Civilization.

I call that ' the mythological history'  or the organisation ... they all have them . They are not any type of history but more in the order of a plot line from an 'historical novel' /   ritual drama .  

The key here isn't  what they learn  but how they learn. This seems the essence of transference and emulation of cultures (initiation) going back to the Neolithic  ( see  Werner Herzog's   'Cave of Forgotten Dreams'  ) . 

This way of learning (as a candidate would learn in a ceremony ) has recently been seen as efficient and valuable as it adapted to AR learning .     https://elearningindustry.com/augmented-future-elearning-augmented-reality-elearning

{   "    Wikipedia, augmented reality is defined as “a live direct or indirect view of a physical, real-world environment whose elements are augmented (or supplemented) by computer-generated sensory input such as sound, video, graphics or GPS data.”  "    .... substitute    'computer-generated sensory input such as sound, video, graphics '   with drama, set, setting, visual aids, other people taking on dramatic roles, one having to rely on resources, physical sensations and actions, etc

another  point to remember re their 'Egyptian / ancient Judaism stuff' , is that it was based on very early and inaccurate research from Victorian times and never seems to have been updated.

Their symbols radiate the depths of mystery and magnificence, their ideas are powerful. Lodges attracted the attention of villains and the most worthy men. The names of the masons shine in the history books and encyclopedias. And still, society is hostile to them. Villains may belong to a Masonic Lodge, but such Lodge is usually called as "Wild Lodge", and has no recognition from other statutes.

'Villains' can exist anywhere.   Lodges are considered ;  regular , irregular, clandestine    or spurious .  Where did you get  'wild lodge' from ? 

Modern historians agree that History is a countless number of snakes, creeping in all possible directions and intertwining among each other. Historical processes in most cases are beyond the man, but until a moment, when the human finds the key to them and creates a snake; the human makes the man-made historical process (!) and thus becoming a god.

Now you are getting cryptic and obscure.

How do you think the Freemasons have some keys to History?

I dont  think they especially have 'keys to history' , I suspect instead, that historians hold those keys .

 

Or their centuries-old presence in politics, religion, and culture is a historical privilege?

I dont know what you mean by an 'historical privilege' ,   when one understands their dynamics and society of the past its pretty clear why their presence was in those fields ... the same as, if we examine the motivations of the present,  the declines in FM are an obvious effect. 

 

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57 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

....it's all a dodge the true hidden hand was the

 
 
International Order of Friendly Sons of the Raccoons

 

Will no one help this widow's son ? 

28b2dc8350ee46c546ca79a64cf4ec96.jpg

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47 minutes ago, back to earth said:

The origin of Freemasonry has no single pillar on which you can rely. They attribute to themselves the ancient origin that dates to ancient Egypt and even back to King Solomon (!). But it's impossible to deny their huge contribution to the history of Western Civilization.

I call that ' the mythological history'  or the organisation ... they all have them . They are not any type of history but more in the order of a plot line from an 'historical novel' /   ritual drama .  

If oral traditions can be sustained for thousands of years, there's no reason why ideas / knowledge / historical narratives can't be preserved for thousands of years within secret societies. 

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3 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

If oral traditions can be sustained for thousands of years, there's no reason why ideas / knowledge / historical narratives can't be preserved for thousands of years within secret societies. 

It would appear that we all know that the Masons exist so how secret of a society could they be?

jmccr8

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Posted (edited)

Just because we're aware of their existence doesn't mean that we're privy to everything they share among initiated members at various levels of the organization. This is is how 'secret society' is generally understood ... as a society that has secrets.

Edited by No Solid Ground

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13 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

I can assure you this is not the case.

I'm not sure what your logorrhea is trying to communicate, but out of respect to my profession, I want to clearly identify this bit as utter uninformed, ignorant hokum, lest some person mistake you as knowledgable in the field and take this trash seriously.

--Jaylemurph 

 
 

The metaphor of snakes is designed to emphasize the complexity of the historical process. Are you a historian? Or a Mason? Do you not agree that history is infinitely difficult? Well, I'll be grateful if you will correct my ignorance in this matter.

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8 hours ago, back to earth said:

'Villains' can exist anywhere.   Lodges are considered ;  regular , irregular, clandestine    or spurious .  Where did you get  'wild lodge' from ? 

 

 
 

You see, in most cases, I have received the translations into the Russian language of all documents and papers of the Freemasons and historians of Freemasonry. The Wild Lodge is the name of the men organization, declaring themselves as Masonic, but without recognition by legitimate Masonic organizations. Probably this term is used only in the history of Russian Freemasonry.

 

8 hours ago, back to earth said:

Now you are getting cryptic and obscure.

 

 
 

It is an artistic technique, it is not always successful. I got this real comments from you on my humble guesses. This shows interest and involvement, which deserve praise.
 

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14 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

Just because we're aware of their existence doesn't mean that we're privy to everything they share among initiated members at various levels of the organization. This is is how 'secret society' is generally understood ... as a society that has secrets.

Everyone has secrets and everyone is in a society so yes we live in a secret society.

jmccr8

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19 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

If oral traditions can be sustained for thousands of years, there's no reason why ideas / knowledge / historical narratives can't be preserved for thousands of years within secret societies. 

I'm curious if you can cite even one example of some sort of mystery knowledge, unchanged, reliably and completely passed down orally for a millenium. That's just not the way the human mind or human societies work.

To wit, about the Freemasons' liberality with the truth about their origins (from the 19th Century, so people have been on to them for centuries):

FREEMASONS, n. An order with secret rites, grotesque ceremonies and fantastic costumes, which, originating in the reign of Charles II, among working artisans of London, has been joined successively by the dead of past centuries in unbroken retrogression until now it embraces all the generations of man on the hither side of Adam and is drumming up distinguished recruits among the pre-Creational inhabitants of Chaos and Formless Void. The order was founded at different times by Charlemagne, Julius Caesar, Cyrus, Solomon, Zoroaster, Confucious, Thothmes, and Buddha. Its emblems and symbols have been found in the Catacombs of Paris and Rome, on the stones of the Parthenon and the Chinese Great Wall, among the temples of Karnak and Palmyra and in the Egyptian Pyramids -- always by a Freemason.

 

--Jaylemurph

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On 5/6/2017 at 0:45 PM, Mr. Box said:

If I had a question in the 18th century, "Who are the Masons?", I would answer, "People who concerned not only with questions of morality and enlightenment but with questions of life and death." I apologize to all Masonic brethren.

If you ask Mason, "What is Freemasonry now?", he would say that all the goals are fulfilled by Freemasonry, and their task now is to keep the intellectual flame.

(additional speculations snipped)

Alternatively, you could just visit a Masonic Lodge.

I think that you would find most of your speculations were based on information by people who have actually never even bothered to join a Masonic lodge and who have never visited one.

I say this as the daughter of a man who was both Mason (32nd Degree) and Shriner.  My brother was in the DeMolays and I was in the Rainbow Girls (one of the Masonic groups for girls) and rose to Worthy Advisor (head of the girls for that lodge).  I know a number of Masons.

You should do what your sources were too lazy to do... just visit a lodge (or several lodges.)

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BTW, as with many organizations of the time, their "history" is a "pious fabrication."  There was no "Hiram Abiff - something easily figured out when you know that people did not have last names in the purported "time of Solomon."  There's a lot of historical errors in their "source material."

The Masons know this, by the way.  Several have written books on this subject.  Again, you can find this out simply by attending a lodge as a guest.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, jaylemurph said:

I'm curious if you can cite even one example of some sort of mystery knowledge, unchanged, reliably and completely passed down orally for a millenium. That's just not the way the human mind or human societies work.

 

First, to clarify, there is oral tradition and there is oral tradition used within secret societies ... by "mystery knowledge" I assume you're referring to its use by secret societies ... hence, your query cannot be answered by virtue of the fact that what is being preserved and passed on in secret societies is, well ... secret.

Re: your assertion about the human mind ... it certainly isn't the way the modern mind and society works, but ancient people depended on oral tradition for, among other things, survival ... and their oral traditions in some cases extended back thousands of years, even into the mists of time. Most of our oldest extant literature—The Iliad and The Odyssey, Beowulf, the Psalms, the pre-Islamic Muallaqat, the Edda, the Kalevala— derives from much older oral recitation, whose roots wind much deeper into the past than we imagine. For example, the (now printed) Authenticity of Open Awareness (from ancient northwestern Tibet) derives from an oral tradition thought to extend back 18,000 years by the tradition that preserves it.  The ancient oral roots of the gathas (songs) found in the Vendidad section of the Iranian Avesta may date to as early as 6000 BCE (according to Plutarch) and possibly much older. 

There are those who doubt that such large texts could have ever been memorized repeatedly and passed along for many thousands of years intact, yet even today in Somalia, which has been largely sheltered from modern technology, a large proportion of children memorizes the entire Qurʾan, and poets remain the carriers of information, reciting poems that are days in the telling. The Mwindo Epic of Congo, which is much longer than The Odyssey, is still recited by bards in special ceremonies. When Daniel Biebuyck first recorded it in the late sixties, it took three weeks of eight-hour-a-day sessions to complete the telling. In Europe, songs and stories were kept alive by wandering troubadours, who used instruments such as the lute and balalaika to accompany their songs. Troubadours were often political commentators as well as carriers of ancient history, and thus were viewed as threatening to the ruling classes. Stalin, in one of his least-documented but most horrendous massacres, liquidated the last of the troubadour class of kobzar in the mid-1930s, thus destroying a large segment of Ukrainian history. 

 

Edited by No Solid Ground

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20 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

If oral traditions can be sustained for thousands of years, there's no reason why ideas / knowledge / historical narratives can't be preserved for thousands of years within secret societies. 

I agree, this is a big part of my area of study and it certainly applies to things other than Freemasonry. But I was specifically addressing Freemasonry here. It doesnt apply here in the context of Freemasonry as that was and is not an oral tradition. Even Rosicrucianism was started off by the distribution of printed pamphlets.    Freemasonry works like an oral tradition if its performance is done properly ( ie. in a real and dynamic 'oral' way and not a bunch of guys in costumes reading around a set reading off scripts) . 

The stories of FM were 'made up'  long after that culture became literate, and then inserted into the ritual  drama . Unless you are postulating a line of people passing on a story that goes back to the building of Solomon's Temple ? 

I know, that in a tradition I have been involved in the 'oral history' is  obviously faked, although 'based' on historical events .  The characters and events in the 'mystery play' / initiations / ritual dramas do not gel and seem out, in some cases by hundreds of years, or just downright wrong. 

However in older, purely oral cultures , I agree with you.   

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4 minutes ago, back to earth said:

 Freemasonry works like an oral tradition if its performance is done properly ( ie. in a real and dynamic 'oral' way and not a bunch of guys in costumes reading around a set reading off scripts) . 

Traditionally, in many cultures, oral tradition included general narratives for the common masses, and gradations of narratives for various levels of initiation. They also included secret or 'inner' narratives that were restricted to a core few of the highest initiates ... the ruling class. Most certainly a small group of Freemasons meeting in a small town in North Dakota would be reading low level scripts in their costumes, but this doesn't mean that there isn't a core leadership that practices secret or inner rites and recitations that extend very far back in time, further back than the Middle Ages. 

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1 hour ago, jaylemurph said:

I'm curious if you can cite even one example of some sort of mystery knowledge, unchanged, reliably and completely passed down orally for a millenium. That's just not the way the human mind or human societies work.

To wit, about the Freemasons' liberality with the truth about their origins (from the 19th Century, so people have been on to them for centuries):

FREEMASONS, n. An order with secret rites, grotesque ceremonies and fantastic costumes, which, originating in the reign of Charles II, among working artisans of London, has been joined successively by the dead of past centuries in unbroken retrogression until now it embraces all the generations of man on the hither side of Adam and is drumming up distinguished recruits among the pre-Creational inhabitants of Chaos and Formless Void. The order was founded at different times by Charlemagne, Julius Caesar, Cyrus, Solomon, Zoroaster, Confucious, Thothmes, and Buddha. Its emblems and symbols have been found in the Catacombs of Paris and Rome, on the stones of the Parthenon and the Chinese Great Wall, among the temples of Karnak and Palmyra and in the Egyptian Pyramids -- always by a Freemason.

 

--Jaylemurph

Was that a quote from Ambrose Bierce  ?  Sound s abit like him. 

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56 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Alternatively, you could just visit a Masonic Lodge.

I think that you would find most of your speculations were based on information by people who have actually never even bothered to join a Masonic lodge and who have never visited one.

I say this as the daughter of a man who was both Mason (32nd Degree) and Shriner.  My brother was in the DeMolays and I was in the Rainbow Girls (one of the Masonic groups for girls) and rose to Worthy Advisor (head of the girls for that lodge).  I know a number of Masons.

You should do what your sources were too lazy to do... just visit a lodge (or several lodges.)

:) 

 

Then ;

Rainbow%20girls.png

 

 

 

Now .... 

 

Related image

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, jaylemurph said:

 

To wit, about the Freemasons' liberality with the truth about their origins (from the 19th Century, so people have been on to them for centuries):

FREEMASONS, n. An order with secret rites, grotesque ceremonies and fantastic costumes, which, originating in the reign of Charles II, among working artisans of London, has been joined successively by the dead of past centuries in unbroken retrogression until now it embraces all the generations of man on the hither side of Adam and is drumming up distinguished recruits among the pre-Creational inhabitants of Chaos and Formless Void. The order was founded at different times by Charlemagne, Julius Caesar, Cyrus, Solomon, Zoroaster, Confucious, Thothmes, and Buddha. Its emblems and symbols have been found in the Catacombs of Paris and Rome, on the stones of the Parthenon and the Chinese Great Wall, among the temples of Karnak and Palmyra and in the Egyptian Pyramids -- always by a Freemason.

 

--Jaylemurph

You're overlooking that secret societies often practice strategic obfuscation, misinformation, contradiction, and deception ... even deliberately making themselves look like fools. We only need to look at politicians who align with Straussian philosophy to understand this. 

Edited by No Solid Ground

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54 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

BTW, as with many organizations of the time, their "history" is a "pious fabrication."  There was no "Hiram Abiff - something easily figured out when you know that people did not have last names in the purported "time of Solomon."  There's a lot of historical errors in their "source material."

The Masons know this, by the way.  Several have written books on this subject.  Again, you can find this out simply by attending a lodge as a guest.

Its to do with 'emulation' .   Various traditions have a 'central character'   that sets a role model,  he may be imaginary or historical (even so, then, the story associated with the character may not be historically accurate ) .

But I am guessing you realise this ;) .  

 

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44 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

First, to clarify, there is oral tradition and there is oral tradition used within secret societies ... by "mystery knowledge" I assume you're referring to its use by secret societies ... hence, your query cannot be answered by virtue of the fact that what is being preserved and passed on in secret societies is, well ... secret.

Secret ?     Kenemet just 'blabbed' about Hiram Abiff .   You can read the rituals online .   Your points may have some validity if you were not talking about Freemasonry.    It is NOT an 'oral' tradition in its inception.    

I say they can be answered . There is always a way of answering that need not break one's oaths.  Sometimes I think this 'its a secret'  thing is used as an excuse .  

44 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

Re: your assertion about the human mind ... it certainly isn't the way the modern mind and society works, but ancient people depended on oral tradition for, among other things, survival ...

Indeed ,  survival in my country depended on oral tradition for the last 40,000 years .   But this is very different from what we are discussing . There is a feedback loop concerning survival, get the details of the tradition wrong, and basically, on this level, you die .  The oral knowledge is constantly re affirmed by physical confirmation in the environment .

44 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

 

and their oral traditions in some cases extended back thousands of years, even into the mists of time. Most of our oldest extant literature—The Iliad and The Odyssey, Beowulf, the Psalms, the pre-Islamic Muallaqat, the Edda, the Kalevala— derives from much older oral recitation, whose roots wind much deeper into the past than we imagine. For example, the (now printed) Authenticity of Open Awareness (from ancient northwestern Tibet) derives from an oral tradition thought to extend back 18,000 years by the tradition that preserves it.  The ancient oral roots of the gathas (songs) found in the Vendidad section of the Iranian Avesta may date to as early as 6000 BCE (according to Plutarch) and possibly much older. 

Indeed !   And all good guys are 'proto Iranians '    and the bad ones ,  those 'deviates'  (devati, daeva, deva, devil , etc ) , the 'proto vedic Indians .   And in the latter Vedas  (also songs from an oral source ) ,   its the  Asuras that fell from grace and became 'demons' . .    

      Battles between the devas and asuras. The cosmic wars between the deities were symbolic of the earthly wars between the two groups

Do you really think that political motivations and machinations never ' tweaked'  oral history ? 

 

44 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

There are those who doubt that such large texts could have ever been memorized repeatedly and passed along for many thousands of years intact, yet even today in Somalia, which has been largely sheltered from modern technology, a large proportion of children memorizes the entire Qurʾan, and poets remain the carriers of information, reciting poems that are days in the telling. The Mwindo Epic of Congo, which is much longer than The Odyssey, is still recited by bards in special ceremonies. When Daniel Biebuyck first recorded it in the late sixties, it took three weeks of eight-hour-a-day sessions to complete the telling. In Europe, songs and stories were kept alive by wandering troubadours, who used instruments such as the lute and balalaika to accompany their songs. Troubadours were often political commentators as well as carriers of ancient history, and thus were viewed as threatening to the ruling classes. Stalin, in one of his least-documented but most horrendous massacres, liquidated the last of the troubadour class of kobzar in the mid-1930s, thus destroying a large segment of Ukrainian history. 

 

Oral skills seem phenomenal to modern people . and the more 'primitive' the oral skill, the more phenomenal it seems . 

The multi layered and complex knowledge and memory of traditional Aboriginal Australians is phenomenal !   Yet,  not long after European settlement , the story arrived up north (via oral information ) ; " A white man called Captain Cook landed at Botany Bay and they had all these sheep and they got out into the country and ate everything and wrecked the land and the food, now its all ruined .

Although essentially and vaguely correct  ......   it isnt correct in the details .

But still, even with our societies  over the top record keeping and archives .... we still change the facts and history , to suit political ends.  Surely you have seen this ?

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