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Mr. Box

Freemasonry and its shadow

225 posts in this topic

47 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

Traditionally, in many cultures, oral tradition included general narratives for the common masses, and gradations of narratives for various levels of initiation. They also included secret or 'inner' narratives that were restricted to a core few of the highest initiates ... the ruling class. Most certainly a small group of Freemasons meeting in a small town in North Dakota would be reading low level scripts in their costumes, but this doesn't mean that there isn't a core leadership that practices secret or inner rites and recitations that extend very far back in time, further back than the Middle Ages. 

Now you are venturing into the area of wild speculations .    ' Inner sanctum teachings' are NOT to do with  historical information, but rather the essential specifics of  whatever the society is instructing. 

Organisations which teach such things are fringe  ... more like cults and things that offer an exclusive view into 'real history'  . 

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2 minutes ago, back to earth said:

Secret ?     Kenemet just 'blabbed' about Hiram Abiff .   You can read the rituals online .   Your points may have some validity if you were not talking about Freemasonry.    It is NOT an 'oral' tradition in its inception.    

I say they can be answered . There is always a way of answering that need not break one's oaths.  Sometimes I think this 'its a secret'  thing is used as an excuse .  

Indeed ,  survival in my country depended on oral tradition for the last 40,000 years .   But this is very different from what we are discussing . There is a feedback loop concerning survival, get the details of the tradition wrong, and basically, on this level, you die .  The oral knowledge is constantly re affirmed by physical confirmation in the environment .

Indeed !   And all good guys are 'proto Iranians '    and the bad ones ,  those 'deviates'  (devati, daeva, deva, devil , etc ) , the 'proto vedic Indians .   And in the latter Vedas  (also songs from an oral source ) ,   its the  Asuras that fell from grace and became 'demons' . .    

      Battles between the devas and asuras. The cosmic wars between the deities were symbolic of the earthly wars between the two groups

Do you really think that political motivations and machinations never ' tweaked'  oral history ? 

 

Oral skills seem phenomenal to modern people . and the more 'primitive' the oral skill, the more phenomenal it seems . 

The multi layered and complex knowledge and memory of traditional Aboriginal Australians is phenomenal !   Yet,  not long after European settlement , the story arrived up north (via oral information ) ; " A white man called Captain Cook landed at Botany Bay and they had all these sheep and they got out into the country and ate everything and wrecked the land and the food, now its all ruined .

Although essentially and vaguely correct  ......   it isnt correct in the details .

But still, even with our societies  over the top record keeping and archives .... we still change the facts and history , to suit political ends.  Surely you have seen this ?

I addressed these issues in post #20. Low level initiates in secret societies (most prone to blabbing publicly) are given low level information (and misinformation, when it suits the ruling class). A similar dynamic operates in general oral tradition ... the common people are given general information and the ruling class retains the details and protects accuracy. Also, oral tradition songs / chants / poetry / narratives are quite a different construction than news being transmitted from region to region. 

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6 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

It is NOT an 'oral' tradition in its inception.    

That may be the currently trending position in academia, but the author/s of the Hallwell Manuscript is unavailable to confirm this, making it quite impossible to know the origin or distance of its roots.

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So, what great secret information do these Masons have then?

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Posted (edited)

28 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

So, what great secret information do these Masons have then?

Given the nature of secrecy, anyone who might could answer your question wouldn't. :D

People with an understanding of the purpose of early European secret societies that extends back into pre-Christian centuries and into the early stages of the Christian ascendency might could speculate about this information. A good starting place would be The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries by David Ulancey. Also useful would be researching early Christianity's war on 'pagan' oral traditions and associated rites.

Edited by No Solid Ground

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

I addressed these issues in post #20. Low level initiates in secret societies (most prone to blabbing publicly) are given low level information (and misinformation, when it suits the ruling class). A similar dynamic operates in general oral tradition ... the common people are given general information and the ruling class retains the details and protects accuracy.

I'd like to see an example of that in the way you present it .   I see the dynamic as something different and in what you describe it has not been the way you think.   Here the oral myths start on a 'kindergarten level' and are communicated that way to children, and to outsiders or people first encountering the traditions . Then as you know more  ' deeper levels of meanings ' are attached to the story, this goes on through series of initiations and experiences  until there  is a multi-layered information system that connects to the story, now like a mnemonic .    In this case , any 'accuracy' or historical relevance to the story is secondary. 

Are you familiar with 'method of loci ' ?  Combine that with 'spatial memory'  and you can have , in the right sort of culture,  both operating ;  a 'story' that allows long term environmental and social survival connected to 'deeper levels of meaning  - hence the intimate and encompassing 'connection to country ' .  

Quote

Also, oral tradition songs / chants / poetry / narratives are quite a different construction than news being transmitted from region to region. 

And this applies to secret knowledge told in high level initiation ceremonies     how ? 

- Its almost like you are suggesting that   high level Brahmins say the Vedas are true and authentic to the lower class, but in their high secret exclusive ceremonies a different ral tradition is taught that is not in the Vedas ....    something like  "Oh , we had a war with the proto-Iranian Aryans , thats why we split off . "

When in actual fact  many of them are behind the Indian Nationalist Party and the 'Out of India Theory' concerning Aryan migrations . 

 

I am not sure what point you are trying to push here ?  Is it that secret societies contain the real oral history of the world ?    Or something .... 

Edited by back to earth
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2 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

That may be the currently trending position in academia, but the author/s of the Hallwell Manuscript is unavailable to confirm this, making it quite impossible to know the origin or distance of its roots.

So .... you are now saying what you postulate is ' quite impossible '   ?   

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1 hour ago, Hanslune said:

So, what great secret information do these Masons have then?

They know that there is an eighth secret herb and/or spice in KFC.

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1 hour ago, Hanslune said:

So, what great secret information do these Masons have then?

Well, they used to ... a lot of it has been revised out .... eg  modern groups who descended from obscure / 'spurious'   Masonic roots  have eliminated vast amounts of such * ;   like  .....    pssst , Hanslune .... come over here ... come into this secret room where no one can hear  and promise not to tell ?  No, promise on your mother's grave and your own 'manhood' not to tell ?  because we could all get into a LOT of trouble here .... okay  . .....  

...   the world is like a big round ball, turning on its axis making  day and night, and it goes around the Sun, making the seasons ... and the Sun, thats like all the others stars its just closer   ;)    ;)     ... shhhh .  

* Eg, The Rites of Memphis and MIzraim had 97 degrees  ( and the modern version still does ! )   -   adaptations brought them down to 10 .

The 'Secret Conference' in Switzerland was a meeting of many such groups and heads , some only with one or two members, but many feared, although fulled with old outdated and obscure stuff, there were some things worth preserving ... accordingly they pared down the rites of ALL schools represented to 9 degrees   and essentially there are 3 (as in Blue Lodge )  representing birth life and death ... which are, all parts if life , so there is really only 1  ( with 'extensions'   ;)  )  

 

But if one is really into dress-ups and Grand Po-bahs   ....   

http://www.frankripel.org/iutmah/meaprmm_english.html

 

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6 minutes ago, back to earth said:

Well, they used to ... a lot of it has been revised out .... eg  modern groups who descended from obscure / 'spurious'   Masonic roots  have eliminated vast amounts of such * ;   like  .....    pssst , Hanslune .... come over here ... come into this secret room where no one can hear  and promise not to tell ?  No, promise on your mother's grave and your own 'manhood' not to tell ?  because we could all get into a LOT of trouble here .... okay  . .....  

...   the world is like a big round ball, turning on its axis making  day and night, and it goes around the Sun, making the seasons ... and the Sun, thats like all the others stars its just closer   ;)    ;)     ... shhhh .  ...

 

I hate to give him up, BTE, but Hanslune promptly divulged this shocking secret to me.

But fear not, I shall loyally keep your confidence. After I tweet it. And post it on Facebook.

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1 hour ago, No Solid Ground said:

Given the nature of secrecy, anyone who might could answer your question wouldn't. :D

I will !  Very openly .       I think you dont know the answer to such questions .

1 hour ago, No Solid Ground said:

People with an understanding of the purpose of early European secret societies that extends back into pre-Christian centuries and into the early stages of the Christian ascendency might could speculate about this information. A good starting place would be The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries by David Ulancey. Also useful would be researching early Christianity's war on 'pagan' oral traditions and associated rites.

 

I would also suggest a life time study of cultural anthropology specialising in these areas, across multiple times and divergent cultures. Also some 'in the field ' experience by actually joining and taking initiation in a few. And also maybe living with and alongside some people for a while that actually still practice and rely on such ancient ways of passing on knowledge and surviving, both environmentally, socially and psychologically , to get a more 'down to earth' and realistic view on how 'pagan' and 'primitive' people managed all this . 

 

I would not make the mistake , in this particular forum, of thinking that certain people have the opinion they do and have not agreed with you fully, because they have not read a specific single book on the subject .

Maybe start a thread specifically on this Mithraic subject ? I am sure it would be interesting .   One thing that could be examined, especially related to your ideas, might be ; is there a link with the 'original'  Mythra   and the Roman one .

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2 minutes ago, back to earth said:

So .... you are now saying what you postulate is ' quite impossible '   ?   

I can suggest the possibility that there may be inner Masonic information that has been secretly passed along since the 12-13th century (when the Hallwell Manuscript was published ... and at the time that Christianity was systematically recontextualizing any oral traditions not consistent with the emerging Aristotelean Christian dogma)) ... and that this oral transmission of inner information could potentially date earlier than the Hallwell Manuscript  ... however it is impossible to identify by what route (origin) or how far back (distance) a possible pre Hallwell Manuscript oral transmission tradition might extend, if the suggested possibility is actuality. 

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8 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

I can suggest the possibility

Oh, of course you can .  You can suggest whatever you want     :) 

8 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

 

that there may be inner Masonic information that has been secretly passed along since the 12-13th century

Yes,  there may have been.   I would even postulate that since there are a common themes in ALL   worldwide cross time and location systems of initiation  that all  groups with the same cause ( to initiate people )  - whether one calls that 'inner masonic information' or not,   has been secretly passed along every since humans had culture. 

But a specific wholly Masonic inner teaching passed along from the 12th century would have to show Masonic continuity back to then .  

8 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

 

 (when the Hallwell Manuscript was published ... and at the time that Christianity was systematically recontextualizing any oral traditions not consistent with the emerging Aristotelean Christian dogma)) ... and that this oral transmission of inner information could potentially date earlier than the Hallwell Manuscript  ... however it is impossible to identify by what route (origin) or how far back (distance) a possible pre Hallwell Manuscript oral transmission tradition might extend, if the suggested possibility is actuality. 

But back then and when it was published  , oral traditions had passed .   You say that by using the term published . 

I am still confused by your claim? Is it that in higher degree Masonic ceremonies, certain oral information is passed on from antiquity NOT in the privately published rite scripts ? 

If so , I cant think f anything that would go more against the operation of a Lodge or group ... and would be cause for its closure ! 

If you knew anything about Freemasonry, even the spurious groups , you would know that they demand this .  Nothing is to be removed or added from approved script ceremonies , nothing !   Thats how they got 'spurious; groups and peeps kicked out in the first place .

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Posted (edited)

 

29 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

I hate to give him up, BTE, but Hanslune promptly divulged this shocking secret to me.

But fear not, I shall loyally keep your confidence. After I tweet it. And post it on Facebook.

Okay , then expect to find yourself waking up in the morning .... suspended by one foot in a noose from underneath Blackfriars Bridge ! 

.... after you get this postcard in the mail 

 

maj12.jpg

Edited by back to earth
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5 minutes ago, back to earth said:

 

Okay , then expect to find yourself waking up in the morning .... suspended by one foot in a noose from underneath Blackfriars Bridge ! 

.... after you get this postcard in the mail 

 

maj12.jpg

Pffft. Bring it on, dude. That's what I do every morning to stretch out my sore back.

Besides, shouldn't Hanslune also be punished? He's the one who told me.

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12 minutes ago, back to earth said:

1. I would also suggest a life time study of cultural anthropology specialising in these areas, across multiple times and divergent cultures. Also some 'in the field ' experience by actually joining and taking initiation in a few. And also maybe living with and alongside some people for a while that actually still practice and rely on such ancient ways of passing on knowledge and surviving, both environmentally, socially and psychologically , to get a more 'down to earth' and realistic view on how 'pagan' and 'primitive' people managed all this . 

 

2. I would not make the mistake , in this particular forum, of thinking that certain people have the opinion they do and have not agreed with you fully, because they have not read a specific single book on the subject .

3. Maybe start a thread specifically on this Mithraic subject ? I am sure it would be interesting .   One thing that could be examined, especially related to your ideas, might be ; is there a link with the 'original'  Mythra   and the Roman one .

1. Interesting that you assume I haven't. 

2. Chill ... it was a related reading recommendation ... no need to take it personally. Good forum protocol dictates composing general posts with the understanding that we are speaking to whoever is / will be in the room. The recommendation was specifically written to Mr. Box and generally written to the room. 

3. That might be fun ... but it would be a very large undertaking (again, with the understanding that forum discussions should be conducted in a way that is generally accessible to the room ... not just those who have some education re the topic). First it would require a discussion re hermeneutics and culturally conditioned readings of pre-modern / ancient so-called 'mythology' and oral traditions. Then there would need to be a discussion re the strategic Christian-influenced recontextualization of non-Western / non-Christian ancient oral traditions, texts, symbols, and rites since the 13th century, with a subset discussion of this recontextualization between the late 1700s and the present. Then there would need to be a discussion of Western colonization. Within this context we would clear space to have a discussion of Ulancey' work and its impact on academia's view of Mithraism and the role of Mithraism in the development of early European secret societies. 

Not a light undertaking. I'm finishing up vol. 2 of a book on these lines of thought over the summer, but I'd be up for it in the Fall.

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Posted (edited)

Pffft. Bring it on, dude. That's what I do every morning to stretch out my sore back.

Besides, shouldn't Hanslune also be punished? He's the one who told me.

Us high level spurious masons dont like laggers and dobbers .

You just increased you punishment !   Hanging off a bridge is too good for you .

You need to be cast into the sea so its monsters may devour you ! 

Now, get ready while I wind up with an evocation ! 

 

All delicate days and pleasant, all spirits and sorrows are cast 
Far out with the foam of the present that sweeps to the surf of the past: 
Where beyond the extreme sea-wall, and between the remote sea-gates, 
Waste water washes, and tall ships founder, and deep death waits: 
Where, mighty with deepening sides, clad about with the seas as with wings, 
And impelled of invisible tides, and fulfilled of unspeakable things, 
White-eyed and poisonous-finned, shark-toothed and serpentine-curled, 
Rolls, under the whitening wind of the future, the wave of the world. 
 
Right Brothers !   Throw him in !  
 
 
 
Fat-Family-in-hot-tub-300x204.jpg
 
 
Oh .... hang on    < grabs an oar and prises a space open  >
 
 
Right   ... throw him in ,      now  !  
Edited by back to earth
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26 minutes ago, back to earth said:

But back then and when it was published  , oral traditions had passed .   You say that by using the term published . 

Surely you don't believe that oral tradition died with the invention of publication ... particularly the transmission of inner / protected information and insight? 

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For me it would be a requisite to show that there is a secret inner circle before maintaining that they had secret oral traditions, so I can't really see you being able to make an argument in support of your position.

jmccr8

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2 minutes ago, back to earth said:

Us high level spurious masons dont like laggers and dobbers .

You just increased you punishment !   Hanging off a bridge is too good for you .

You need to be cast into the sea so its monsters may devour you ! 

Now, get ready while I wind up with an evocation ! 

 

All delicate days and pleasant, all spirits and sorrows are cast 
Far out with the foam of the present that sweeps to the surf of the past: 
Where beyond the extreme sea-wall, and between the remote sea-gates, 
Waste water washes, and tall ships founder, and deep death waits: 
Where, mighty with deepening sides, clad about with the seas as with wings, 
And impelled of invisible tides, and fulfilled of unspeakable things, 
White-eyed and poisonous-finned, shark-toothed and serpentine-curled, 
Rolls, under the whitening wind of the future, the wave of the world. 
 
Right Brothers !   Throw him in !  
 
 
 
Fat-Family-in-hot-tub-300x204.jpg
 
 
Oh .... hang on    < grabs an oar and prises a space open  >
 
 
Right   ... throw him in ,      now  !  

LOL Your post appeared under No Solid Ground's and at first I thought you were addressing it to him. I was thinking, WTF? Now I see you're replyubg to my post in which I was hoping to avoid such stern punishment.

I remember the hot tub photo from the recently closed "Psychic Evidence" thread. It was highly disturbing there and only a little better here because it's smaller. But if you're now saying I must be punished by being squeezed into that hot tub, I immediately and humbly surrender.

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27 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

1. Interesting that you assume I haven't. 

Its because of what you write that I assume that .  You dont seem experienced, or, your views do not seem formed by experience.

Quote

2. Chill ... it was a related reading recommendation ... no need to take it personally. Good forum protocol dictates composing general posts with the understanding that we are speaking to whoever is / will be in the room. The recommendation was specifically written to Mr. Box and generally written to the room. 

I am chilled , actually, its overcast and monday and I am still sitting up in bed having a very chilled lazy day .... I really should get up and make some 1pm breakfast .     

I was referring to the fact that you have already dismissed comments from posters who are professional in their fields and have published books on the subjects that you seem to have limited views on.     Consider it a 'heads up ' for any further advice they may give you ... if they can now be bothered , or they may  have decided to simply ignore this all now due to previous statements .

Quote

3. That might be fun ... but it would be a very large undertaking (again, with the understanding that forum discussions should be conducted in a way that is generally accessible to the room ... not just those who have some education re the topic). First it would require a discussion re hermeneutics and culturally conditioned readings of pre-modern / ancient so-called 'mythology' and oral traditions. 

Not a problem there... any readers that didnt have that can ask for the appropriate info or links .

Quote

Then there would need to be a discussion re the strategic Christian-influenced recontextualization of non-Western / non-Christian ancient oral traditions, texts, symbols, and rites since the 13th century, with a subset discussion of this recontextualization between the late 1700s and the present.

A subject I have broached more than once here, but not going back  quite as far as you state .  Indeed, with this missing, many a discussion has been difficult for some to follow or comprehend or realise why some  modern ideas related to this are a big mess.

My standard ref for posters with this problem is to read  only Chapter 1  (more of course, if they can bear it :)  )  of this ref. It is fairly brief,  clear easy to access and navigate  and , I feel, essential background for many subjects ...  including the problematic issues many 'wooers' have here regarding the original sour e of their 'alternatives'  and having no working hypothesis as they dont realise the old ones that are behind a lot of the old stuff, now considered 'new age ' and 'alternative '  ... that is, they cannot show any transference  medium ...instead of understanding principles these things were originally based on, they try to fit it in with  'quantum' 

 Here is the ref ;   Ch 1 .  ; 'The Importance of a Theory of Impetus'

https://archive.org/details/originsofmoderns007291mbp

 

( sorry ,  no youtube of it       :D     )  

   

Quote

 

Then there would need to be a discussion of Western colonization. Within this context we would clear space to have a discussion of Ulancey' work and its impact on academia's view of Mithraism and the role of Mithraism in the development of early European secret societies. 

Not a light undertaking. I'm finishing up vol. 2 of a book on these lines of thought over the summer, but I'd be up for it in the Fall.

It sounds like you must be seeing a connection from Mithraism to Freemasonry ?   Maybe give a ref to Vol 1 so I can get up to speed in meantime ? 

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Posted (edited)

miss edit post thingo  glitch   .... OUT   damn spot! 

 

Edited by back to earth

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40 minutes ago, back to earth said:

I am still confused by your claim? Is it that in higher degree Masonic ceremonies, certain oral information is passed on from antiquity NOT in the privately published rite scripts ? 

This certainly wouldn't be inconceivable. As I posted earlier, secret societies strategically obfuscate, deceive, manipulate, and manage public perception of themselves. Publically proclaiming that only preformulated information is allowed / passed along (to low level initiates) is the perfect way to smokescreen private oral transmission of inner information among the ruling class initiates. Sort of like how neoliberal politicians perception manage the general public.

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26 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

Surely you don't believe that oral tradition died with the invention of publication ... particularly the transmission of inner / protected information and insight? 

Surely you missed the  reason I gave after the bit you quoted and ignored the reason ?   go back and read post #   39 

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