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Mr. Box

Freemasonry and its shadow

232 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, No Solid Ground said:

The post wasn't addressed to me ... and his comment about Hiram is unrelated to the point I've been making ... that is, whether their public history is historically accurate or not is irrelevant to the far more interesting question of whether they might have had a secret oral transmission tradition.

If you are talking about Freemasonry then again, the answer has to be no ... its a basic swearing of the Lodge Master and  the Lodge NOT to add or subtract anything from the written script.    

Any additives or explanations might be offered in discussion afterwards ... one is well advised to study and examine the rites one undertakes.  But this is not art of the rite or the script.   In any case, this  very subject takes up a large part of Masonic publications . 

1 hour ago, No Solid Ground said:

As an aside, I would expect that any secret society's public history would be a fabrication. :D

Again depends what 'secret society ' you are talking about . Being so general  might be 'safe ground' but it also obscures whatever point of focus there is.  Which is , apparently ;  "  whether they might have had a secret oral transmission tradition. " 

If Masonry and other more recent versions   NO  .   And there is a good reason for that as well  ;  it means there would be no 'regulation'   ( in the Masonic sense )   ....  each  group's secret oral tradition could vary , anything could be taught and cults and 'spurious groups' would emerge .    THis is how cults form that copycat ' Mystical Orders '  , like the 'Order of the Solar Temple '  and other unsavory manifestations.

One could postulate that say, the Knights Templar , for example ,   may have had a secret passed on oral tradition    but how could one ever demonstrate or say what it was  if it did exist ?   So then there is no way to track it  . 

Another thing about 'secret groups'  is they tend to make their public history  wild in the first place .  To draw in members.   Any ' more real' / secret / detailed versions of the history are in the 'history lectures' of the degrees . 

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11 minutes ago, back to earth said:

If you are talking about Freemasonry then again, the answer has to be no ... its a basic swearing of the Lodge Master and  the Lodge NOT to add or subtract anything from the written script.    

I explained earlier how this type of very public positioning would effectively serve to further conceal a secret component of an organization. And I suggested that any organization that has a hidden secret component would likely have an inauthentic public statement regarding the history of the organization ... conceivably for more reasons than just to attract new money-paying grunts. 

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20 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

I explained earlier how this type of very public positioning would effectively serve to further conceal a secret component of an organization. And I suggested that any organization that has a hidden secret component would likely have an inauthentic public statement regarding the history of the organization ... conceivably for more reasons than just to attract new money-paying grunts. 

So the recruitment policy would be more money than brains? They might as well add channeling to their portfolio.:lol:

jmccr8

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31 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

I explained earlier how this type of very public positioning would effectively serve to further conceal a secret component of an organization. And I suggested that any organization that has a hidden secret component would likely have an inauthentic public statement regarding the history of the organization ... conceivably for more reasons than just to attract new money-paying grunts. 

?  You quote me  and answer by not addressing the quote  ? 

  Again ;  If you are talking about Freemasonry then again, the answer has to be no ... its a basic swearing of the Lodge Master and  the Lodge NOT to add or subtract anything from the written script.   

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... you cant get around that , except by wild personal speculation ... and for what reason ?  I would suspect,  to try and support some personal theory. 

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5 hours ago, back to earth said:

 Is it that secret societies contain the real oral history of the world?

Maybe that ... but 'real' is such a slippery word, all tied up with perception and power ... maybe 'preferred' is a better choice. And maybe they include details and intent that are regarded as best not shared with the common masses. 

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55 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

I explained earlier how this type of very public positioning would effectively serve to further conceal a secret component of an organization. And I suggested that any organization that has a hidden secret component would likely have an inauthentic public statement regarding the history of the organization ... conceivably for more reasons than just to attract new money-paying grunts. 

Okay lets step back from the inferred might and maybes, What do you think is the agenda of this secret society is how far into our society would it have an effect on and how would the select few within the secret society use the majority of their apparent guppy membership to enact their plan?

jmccr8

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43 minutes ago, back to earth said:

  Again ;  If you are talking about Freemasonry then again, the answer has to be no ... its a basic swearing of the Lodge Master and  the Lodge NOT to add or subtract anything from the written script.   

Oh, well if there's swearing then that settles it. lol

You seem to be suggesting that Freemasonry is non hierarchical in structure and that each unit is independent, accounting only to itself and constrained only by swearing  ... with no overarching governing or review boards and no lodge more powerful than any other ... thereby preventing the existence of any secret component at any level, from regional to national to global, across time. Even if that is Freemasonry's public persona (I'm not familiar with their structure), it is unlikely that there is no national and perhaps global inner circle. I find it naive to think that there isn't and that this inner circle wouldn't share some information not available to the lodge master in Grand Forks, Minnesota or East Cow Pile, Texas.And if this is possible (even likely) then it lend support for the possibility of a secret oral transmission component at the highest level that could conceivably extend back to the afore mentioned manuscript (the Middle Ages) and even before. The fact that they swear isn't sufficiently convincing ... do you have anything else, perhaps more substantial?

 

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13 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Okay lets step back from the inferred might and maybes, What do you think is the agenda of this secret society is how far into our society would it have an effect on and how would the select few within the secret society use the majority of their apparent guppy membership to enact their plan?

jmccr8

Whoa there, Trigger ... we don't even know if there is a secret component. All I'm interested in is exploring the possibility that it could and likely does  exist ... not speculating about the agenda and effect of an unknown plan that it might have if it does exist. I'm thinking this discussion has pretty much run its course ...

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5 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

Whoa there, Trigger ... we don't even know if there is a secret component. All I'm interested in is exploring the possibility that it could and likely does  exist ... not speculating about the agenda and effect of an unknown plan that it might have if it does exist. I'm thinking this discussion has pretty much run its course ...

That was obvious some time back as it had no where to develop other than some secret knowledge, I just pushed it a bit to see if there was a point.:lol:

jmccr8

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That the Masons and others have secrets is probable, but secret knowledge seems unlikely.  Some may even think the secrets are a form of knowledge, but that would make them so. Then, again, they may know how to transmute water into gold, although one would wonder they didn't use it.

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22 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

First, to clarify, there is oral tradition and there is oral tradition used within secret societies ... by "mystery knowledge" I assume you're referring to its use by secret societies ... hence, your query cannot be answered by virtue of the fact that what is being preserved and passed on in secret societies is, well ... secret.

Actually, it can be evidenced to some extent because they all have common symbols and paraphernalia.  That's how we know something of the bull cult of Mithras and some of the Greek secret societies.  In addition, others may record things involving these societies (which happened with the Greek mysteries.  Although we don't know their teachings, their practitioners were characters in some ancient plays.)

Quote

 Most of our oldest extant literature—The Iliad and The Odyssey, Beowulf, the Psalms, the pre-Islamic Muallaqat, the Edda, the Kalevala— derives from much older oral recitation, whose roots wind much deeper into the past than we imagine. For example, the (now printed) Authenticity of Open Awareness (from ancient northwestern Tibet) derives from an oral tradition thought to extend back 18,000 years by the tradition that preserves it.  The ancient oral roots of the gathas (songs) found in the Vendidad section of the Iranian Avesta may date to as early as 6000 BCE (according to Plutarch) and possibly much older. 

Three things:

* Plutarch was reporting what he was told and is not necessarily evidence of their actual age.

* people are assuming that a record of an oral story is one that was NEVER changed and never changed meaning.  IF this was true, then the performance would be given in a language that was unintelligible to the listener (languages change a lot in that time period.  Scribes of the Ptolemaic times (300 BC) had difficulty reading material from early Egypt (2600 BC) and they probably could not have understood the accent or the language if it was spoken to them.

* New Age (and subsequent groups) often make up an "ancient tradition" to give their group more authenticity.  In this case, the confirmation of the authenticity of 18,000 years was made  "Through blessings of the Victor Samantabhadra bon-dimension (bon sku, dharmakāya), reflexive open awareness (rang rig pa, svasavedana), a wholeness that is the heart essence of our ancestor is understood by the White Shen Deity, protector of beings"

This is not the same as "holy smokes, this is an ancient text dated to 18,000 BC as confirmed by archaeologists and other experts and by golly here's what it says!"

Quote

The Mwindo Epic of Congo, which is much longer than The Odyssey, is still recited by bards in special ceremonies. When Daniel Biebuyck first recorded it in the late sixties, it took three weeks of eight-hour-a-day sessions to complete the telling.

I'm afraid this doesn't help your claim of authenticity. 

From Wikipedia (and Biebuyck)

The Mwindo Epic varies from typical oral myths in that it is not only spoken, but performed among gatherings of locals....It is not unusual for the bard to throw in some narrative not native to the story detailing his own life and his own personal experiences.

As with any oral myth there are many different interpretations between the different storytellers. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mwindo_epic

 

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14 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

 In this case, the confirmation of the authenticity of 18,000 years was made  "Through blessings of the Victor Samantabhadra bon-dimension (bon sku, dharmakāya), reflexive open awareness (rang rig pa, svasavedana), a wholeness that is the heart essence of our ancestor is understood by the White Shen Deity, protector of beings"

In the Tibetan Bonpo tradition, the founder, Tonpa Shenrab Milwoche is recorded in numerous texts and in the oral tradition as having lived 18,000 years ago in the Zhangzhung region of what is now known as Tibet ... and that his (oral) teachings are foundational to to the development of Vedic traditions. I've never heard of the "confirmation" you quoted above ... and indeed, don't understand how it even is a confirmation or why anyone would say that it is. Can you cite a source, please? 

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28 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

The Mwindo Epic varies from typical oral myths in that it is not only spoken, but performed among gatherings of locals....It is not unusual for the bard to throw in some narrative not native to the story detailing his own life and his own personal experiences.

This is true of many streams of oral tradition. Some cultures regarded oral tradition as alive, not static, shifting with the culture over time. 

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31 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

* Plutarch was reporting what he was told and is not necessarily evidence of their actual age.

...which doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't factual. 

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21 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

This is true of many streams of oral tradition. Some cultures regarded oral tradition as alive, not static, shifting with the culture over time. 

I see.

Ancient mystery knowledge is perfectly immutable and unchanging when you need it to be, but is "alive, not static,shifting with the culture over time" when you need that. That's... startlingly convenient for you.

--Jaylemurph

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Posted (edited)

3 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

knowledge is perfectly immutable and unchanging when you need it to be

Could you let me know where I suggested this? Also, my reply was considerably more nuanced than you're portraying it.

Edited by No Solid Ground

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Posted (edited)

15 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

Oh, well if there's swearing then that settles it. lol

You seem to be suggesting that Freemasonry is non hierarchical in structure and that each unit is independent, accounting only to itself and constrained only by swearing

I have no idea how you get to these ' seem to' s   :huh:

I suppose it is because you dont know nor understand the subject at hand that you are trying to comment on.   My comments re swearing and regulation  (look it up if you dont understand ), in this regard,    indicate a strong hierarchical structure, and it is a remedy against  'each unit being independent '   a Lodge Masters swearing NOT to change the rituals enacted under his care, he must account to the higher levels in the hierarchy.   My whole point about NOT having these supposed secret components in their teachings is all about the hierarchy and control and regulation.

Other dynamics associated I have already explained      (heavens knows how you interpreted them though !  )

Quote

 ... with no overarching governing or review boards and no lodge more powerful than any other

What ?     Of course there is   ' overarching governing or review boards '   , how else would they control things if a Lodge or Master  just started making stuff up and recruiting people to his own ends ?    Its happened in the past ; they get barred and disowned and then another 'spurious' Masonic group arose . 

Quote

... thereby preventing the existence of any secret component at any level, from regional to national to global, across time

Oh dear .....   look this DOES happen , thats my point ... when it does they kicked out of the regulated Masonic Body they were associated with .I dont suppose you ever heard of  ' P2 '   masonic Lodge ? .

You seemed to have jumped on the issue of what a Master swears in running a LOdge and keeping the ceremonies regular and turned it into me trying to say that  such things never happen.  What I am saying is ... they are not part of regular and accepted Freemasonry ... so there is no continuity to support your idea about another secret oral teaching running concurrently inside  Masonry.

Even when there is a split and this does happen, it causes  expulsions to either a spurious Lodge or movement  dispersion  BUT  then the new spurious group restricts their members the same way ... they have to ....   otherwise the whole thing just falls apart into people's personal whims and power trips , turning into a ritulaised movement   - ie,  a cult . 

Quote

 

. Even if that is Freemasonry's public persona (I'm not familiar with their structure),

Not only are you not familiar with it ... you also dispute it ! 

Quote

it is unlikely that there is no national and perhaps global inner circle. I find it naive to think that there isn't and that this inner circle wouldn't share some information not available to the lodge master in Grand Forks, Minnesota or East Cow Pile, Texas

Look ... go and do some more research .   You way off base here !      Of course they have such dynamics .....  for example they might have a meeting of SGIGs    to make sure the 'local national bodies' ARE regular and operating properly . 

This is a far cry from your retreated position which now seems to be , if it cant be shown to happen in a regular Lodge ... then maybe on some secret  higher level   the 'controllers'  have their own secret oral club where ....

... you jus entered the wonderful ground of 'made up conspiracy theory '     ....   here I shall leave you . 

Quote

 

.And if this is possible (even likely) then it lend support for the possibility of a secret oral transmission component at the highest level that could conceivably extend back to the afore mentioned manuscript (the Middle Ages) and even before.

Wooo -  woooo     all aboard ! 

Quote

 

The fact that they swear isn't sufficiently convincing ... do you have anything else, perhaps more substantial?

 

yes, - see above 

Edited by back to earth
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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, No Solid Ground said:
1 hour ago, Kenemet said:

 In this case, the confirmation of the authenticity of 18,000 years was made  "Through blessings of the Victor Samantabhadra bon-dimension (bon sku, dharmakāya), reflexive open awareness (rang rig pa, svasavedana), a wholeness that is the heart essence of our ancestor is understood by the White Shen Deity, protector of beings"

MY REPLY:

In the Tibetan Bonpo tradition, the founder, Tonpa Shenrab Milwoche is recorded in numerous texts and in the oral tradition as having lived 18,000 years ago in the Zhangzhung region of what is now known as Tibet ... and that his (oral) teachings are foundational to to the development of Vedic traditions. I've never heard of the "confirmation" you quoted above ... and indeed, don't understand how it even is a confirmation or why anyone would say that it is. Can you cite a source, please? 

ADDENDUM:  I see that the quote you used only exists in two places on the internet ... in both cases, in a preview blurb for a (fantastic) book by Anne C. Klein, Professor of Religious Studies at Rice University. So, it appears that you googled the name of the text, grabbed this quote, used it out of context, distorted it, and tried to claim that it was used as confirmation, as if you were knowledgeable about the text and the culture ... only you know why you would do this.  

Edited by No Solid Ground

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14 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

Whoa there, Trigger ... we don't even know if there is a secret component. All I'm interested in is exploring the possibility that it could and likely does  exist ... not speculating about the agenda and effect of an unknown plan that it might have if it does exist. I'm thinking this discussion has pretty much run its course ...

So all this was just a   maybe , a what if ?      It could exist   ... okay   ....  anything  COULD   be so    but you added  'likely '    if you can add 'likely '     you should also be able to likely explain  and answer that question  ,  but I guess things have become a little sticky here Time to back out  is it  ?    

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14 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

That was obvious some time back as it had no where to develop other than some secret knowledge, I just pushed it a bit to see if there was a point.:lol:

jmccr8

I like poker   :)  

Here is the point ;  I think this conversation has run its course .   ;)  

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4 minutes ago, back to earth said:

I have no idea how you get to these ' seem to' s   :huh:

I suppose it is because you dont know nor understand the subject at hand that you are trying to comment on.   My comments re swearing and regulation  (look it up if you dont understand ), in this regard,    indicate a strong hierarchical structure, and it is a remedy against  'each unit being independent '   a Lodge Masters swearing NOT to change the rituals enacted under his care, he must account to the higher levels in the hierarchy.   My whole point about NOT having these supposed secret components in their teachings is all about the hierarchy and control and regulation.

Other dynamics associated I have already explained      (heavens knows how you interpreted them though !  )

What ?     Of course there is   ' overarching governing or review boards '   , how else would they control things if a Lodge or Master  just started making stuff up and recruiting people to his own ends ?    Its happened in the past ; they get barred and disowned and then another 'spurious' Masonic group arose . 

Oh dear .....   look this DOES happen , thats my point ... when it does they kicked out of the regulated Masonic Body they were associated with .I dont suppose you ever heard of  ' P1 '  .

You seemed to have jumped on the issue of what a Master swears in running a LOdge and keeping the ceremonies regular and turned it into me trying to say that  such things never happen.  What I am saying is ... they are not part of regular and accepted Freemasonry ... so there is no continuity to support your idea about another secret oral teaching running concurrently inside  Masonry.

Even when there is a split and this does happen, it causes  expulsions to either a spurious Lodge or movement  dispersion  BUT  then the new spurious group restricts their members the same way ... they have to ....   otherwise the whole thing just falls apart into people's personal whims and power trips , turning into a ritulaised movement   - ie,  a cult . 

Not only are you not familiar with it ... you also dispute it ! 

Look ... go and do some more research .   You way off base here !      Of course they have such dynamics .....  for example they might have a meeting of SGIGs    to make sure the 'local national bodies' ARE regular and operating properly . 

This is a far cry from your retreated position which now seems to be , if it cant be shown to happen in a regular Lodge ... then maybe on some secret  higher level   the 'controllers'  have their own secret oral club where ....

... you jus entered the wonderful ground of 'made up conspiracy theory '     ....   here I shall leave you . 

Wooo -  woooo     all aboard ! 

yes, - see above 

You seem, er...quite passionately opposed to the idea of a possibility that there could be a secret component within Freemasonry that extends back in time ... or that there might have been at one time, but passion and insisting that it couldn't be because they swear is no substitute for evidence that it couldn't exist. 

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3 minutes ago, back to earth said:

So all this was just a   maybe , a what if ?      It could exist   ... okay   ....  anything  COULD   be so    but you added  'likely '    if you can add 'likely '     you should also be able to likely explain  and answer that question  ,  but I guess things have become a little sticky here Time to back out  is it  ?    

The question of whether there could possibly be a secret oral transmission in Freemasonry has absolutely nothing to do with any agenda or effect of some unknown plan that it might have if it does exist.  But I think you know that.

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47 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

Could you let me know where I suggested this? Also, my reply was considerably more nuanced than you're portraying it.

Dude , its your whole premise !    Are you going to try to back out of this one as well ?

Or is it that you have trouble reading what OTHER PEOPLE  write ? 

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Just now, back to earth said:

Dude , its your whole premise !    Are you going to try to back out of this one as well ?

Or is it that you have trouble reading what OTHER PEOPLE  write ? 

Then you won't have any trouble pointing out where I said this, will you. :D

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