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Can an Atheist believe in ghosts?


nephili

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You don't have to believe in God or gods to rationalize any likelihood of an afterlife. Why anyone figures an afterlife must be tied to a divine being is beyond me.

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16 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

If I understand the concept at all, becoming a ghost has got to be about the most awful post-existence conceivable.  You have some sentience -- who can say how much, but can't enjoy any of the pleasures of life (food, sleep, rest, sex, etc.) and cannot even move things except maybe in sudden jerks and it is difficult if not impossible to communicate or even make yourself seen.  No wonder they hide away in old abandoned building among the cobwebs.

I suppose that would be IF some of the common ideas of an afterlife have any merit. Seems logical however that energy could intercept the electrical signals in a living person's brain and experience what they do. Of course it could also be completely different than we might imagine if ghosts can travel between dimensions which might explain some hauntings.

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27 minutes ago, NightScreams said:

I suppose that would be IF some of the common ideas of an afterlife have any merit. Seems logical however that energy could intercept the electrical signals in a living person's brain and experience what they do. Of course it could also be completely different than we might imagine if ghosts can travel between dimensions which might explain some hauntings.

Well, honestly, none of this even approaches "seems" when it comes to being logical.  It is all speculation to deal with folk superstition and the reports of some not-necessarily accurate individuals.

The difference in ghosts between Vietnam and Cambodia is informative.  In Vietnam they are seen as evil people with such little good karma they are unable to find a womb for rebirth -- the "hungry ghost" better translated "evil horror."  Cambodians see the rebirth process as automatic, and so have no ghosts, think the idea kinda funny and look down on the Vietnamese for this idea.

That is just two flavors of Buddhism -- both thinking there is rebirth but one allowing more time and therefore a period of ghostly existence for those without much if any karma.  

In the West, ghosts are not much seen as frightening any more as they use to be.   Now they are either funny or pitiable, and there seems no particular place in the religious beliefs for them to even exist at all.  In Islam I find that most reports of ghosts are dismissed as sightings of jinnh.  

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1 hour ago, Frank Merton said:

In the West, ghosts are not much seen as frightening any more as they use to be.   Now they are either funny or pitiable, and there seems no particular place in the religious beliefs for them to even exist at all.  In Islam I find that most reports of ghosts are dismissed as sightings of jinnh.  

The extraordinary amount of films produced by Hollywood may have something to do with that. Depicted as either very scary (Poltergeist, Paranormal Activity) or funny (Casper the Friendly Ghost, Scooby-Doo! ect.) as you say, this is a major contributing factor in shaping the phenomenon in the eyes of popular culture. But the reality is quite different as should be expected. But that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Edited by TruthSeeker_
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2 minutes ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

The extraordinary amount of films produced by Hollywood may have something to do with that. Depicted as either very scary (Poltergeist, Paranormal Activity) or funny (Casper the Friendly Ghost, Scooby-Doo!) this has contributed in shaping the phenomenon in the eyes of popular culture. But the reality is quite different.

Since I don't as a matter of ethical principle ever go to horror or gore films, I had forgotten about them.  My favorite ghost was poor Charles Laughton, and he pulled it off brilliantly in several classic films.

So what do you think the reality really is?

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On 5/21/2017 at 8:33 PM, Frank Merton said:

Well, honestly, none of this even approaches "seems" when it comes to being logical.  It is all speculation to deal with folk superstition and the reports of some not-necessarily accurate individuals.

The difference in ghosts between Vietnam and Cambodia is informative.  In Vietnam they are seen as evil people with such little good karma they are unable to find a womb for rebirth -- the "hungry ghost" better translated "evil horror."  Cambodians see the rebirth process as automatic, and so have no ghosts, think the idea kinda funny and look down on the Vietnamese for this idea.

That is just two flavors of Buddhism -- both thinking there is rebirth but one allowing more time and therefore a period of ghostly existence for those without much if any karma.  

In the West, ghosts are not much seen as frightening any more as they use to be.   Now they are either funny or pitiable, and there seems no particular place in the religious beliefs for them to even exist at all.  In Islam I find that most reports of ghosts are dismissed as sightings of jinnh.  

I don't base theories off of religious beliefs, my speculations are derived from decades of EVP's, paranormal groups research data, mediums ...etc gathered from around the world. There's so much data on it that you could derive some potentials conclusions and possibilities based on events, all theory of course since it's not something that can be proven but if you listen to enough EVP's and research results you can get a small picture on some limitations ghosts have and what their existence may be like.

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10 minutes ago, NightScreams said:

I don't base theories off of religious beliefs, my speculations are derived from decades of EVP's, paranormal groups research data, mediums ...etc gathered from around the world. There's so much data on it that you could derive some potentials conclusions and possibilities based on events, all theory of course since it's not something that can be proven but if you listen to enough EVP's and research results you can get a small picture on some limitations ghosts have and what their existence may be like.

You have no idea how many times I've heard this refrain that "there are so many reports that it must be true" about aliens, monsters, Noah's flood, Sasquatch, miracles, demons and demon possessions, etc,, etc., ad nauseum.  Belief is a strange thing and when it gets a hold on a gullible person it just won't let go no matter how stupid the idea is.

In scientific investigation, testimony is automatically disregarded.  There are too many attention seekers, fraudsters, mental cases, and simple mistakes based on prior wishful thinking and bias.  All you say is just testimony.  It is not evidence for anything -- let alone some extraordinary claim.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2017-5-10 at 5:34 AM, Essan said:

Obviously it all comes down to what you think ghosts are (I personally dont think they are spirits of the dead any more than they are adverts for dog food. But I do not deny that some people have seen/experienced things that are not explainable with current knowledge).  And I have never seen one.

But I am curious as to what Christians (or members of other religions) think they are,given that,on death,one goes to either heaven or hell?  (or gets reincarnated)

I am aware that in stories, for dramatic effect, they are often souls who are for some reason unable to "move on". But how does that fit in with mainstream religious teaching?

Being a atheist doesnt affect my belief in ghosts any more than it affects my belief in UFOs

My understanding is that most christian denominations would not believe in ghosts that were the spirits of the dead because this would directly contradict the bible.

Some christians believe the dead go direct to heaven or hell. Others believe they all go to sleep, to be awoken on the two days of judgement during the end times.  But it is basically verboten for a  biblical based christian to believe that human souls/spirits hang around on earth. Of course, as other posters have said, a christian might see a ghost as something else, like a tear in the space time continuum, allowing people from the past (or future) to briefly be seen by us. 

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On 2017-5-12 at 6:18 PM, The Silver Thong said:

If I could actualy see a ghost then maybe my mind might change, I do have a mouse in my house and it`s bold. Hundreds of millions of dead people and how many see ghosts hmmm almost none.

Not quite that few. 18% of americans claim to directly have  seen or been in the presence of a ghost while  29% say they believe they have communicated with a dead person. 

Now if you are tempted to write that off to american superstition, take the brits. Over a third of them claim to have personally encountered a ghost, 68% claim to have personally experienced a paranormal event and  82% believe in the supernatural. :)  Even in secular sweden 16%  believe in ghosts and 37% believe in paranormal events 

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On 2017-5-21 at 4:58 PM, Frank Merton said:

If I understand the concept at all, becoming a ghost has got to be about the most awful post-existence conceivable.  You have some sentience -- who can say how much, but can't enjoy any of the pleasures of life (food, sleep, rest, sex, etc.) and cannot even move things except maybe in sudden jerks and it is difficult if not impossible to communicate or even make yourself seen.  No wonder they hide away in old abandoned building among the cobwebs.

Ah Frank but what about those wonderful succubi and incubi? What a life, hey :) 

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6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Not quite that few. 18% of americans claim to directly have  seen or been in the presence of a ghost while  29% say they believe they have communicated with a dead person. 

Now if you are tempted to write that off to american superstition, take the brits. Over a third of them claim to have personally encountered a ghost, 68% claim to have personally experienced a paranormal event and  82% believe in the supernatural. :)  Even in secular sweden 16%  believe in ghosts and 37% believe in paranormal events 

You seem to have lost your way here. This is about, do atheists believe in ghosts. Just because some believe does not make it true. Why is it that oh I will just grab a number here that most ghost encounters freak people out. Why can`t ghosts be nice. Like make me coffee in the morning or fold my laundry. Yet they like to open doors and throw things around. There has to be a few good dead people floating around, right.  

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8 hours ago, The Silver Thong said:

You seem to have lost your way here. This is about, do atheists believe in ghosts. Just because some believe does not make it true. Why is it that oh I will just grab a number here that most ghost encounters freak people out. Why can`t ghosts be nice. Like make me coffee in the morning or fold my laundry. Yet they like to open doors and throw things around. There has to be a few good dead people floating around, right.  

My post was a response to this comment by you;

 and how many see ghosts hmmm almost none.

The percentages i gave show that a lot more than, "  almost no" people claim to have personally seen or experienced a ghost.

The comment does not go to either the reality of ghosts not the similarities or differences between believers and atheists but to the commonality of ghost sightings Ie not people who just believe in ghosts but those who  personally claim to have met one or more.  (in america and britain) Some ghosts are nice, but one understanding would be that the trauma associated with death, which generates the energy residue we perceive as a ghost , also means that most ghosts are not happy chappies (the convict ghost at  pt arthur who enjoys  touching squeezing and pinching good looking young women seems to be a bit of an exception. :)

 The ghost who inhabited our house for 20 years or so, had hanged herself in the mid 1800s after all 12 of her  young children succumbed to diphtheria over  3  winters  She would moan, "where are you" and ,"shut the door,"   but otherwise  was no problem.

We felt sorry for her, and she didn't worry or scare us.  This was a well known ghost   (as i discovered after she moved in and i started researching her background) sighted by dozens of people over 120 years ,and who had haunted her home so effectively that it was abandoned and known as "the ghost house " It burned down in a fire in  the late 1970s,  after which she moved in with us in our home, just across the valley from her original abode  Apart from poltergeists, most ghosts seem incapable of physically interacting with people or the environment, meaning there is nothing to be afraid about them.  Again, the port arthur ghost is one of several known exceptions  and some ghosts seem able to create damp and cold spots as they manifest. 

I might have been mistaken, but it seemed you were judging that ghosts do not exist because so few were sighted, and so few humans ever experienced one.

It doesn't prove they do exist but, actually, LOTS of humans have had an experience with a ghost .   I am not sure i have ever met an older person who, in their lifetime, has not encountered at least one (if you can believe them) . 

 

Edited by Mr Walker
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For me, the problem is the term "atheist".

I believe in ghosts, mainly because I lived in a haunted house for 20+ years, but I don't believe in deities.

I see God as the central body of consciousness that we split away from when we are born,  then return to when we die.

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22 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

My post was a response to this comment by you;

 and how many see ghosts hmmm almost none.

The percentages i gave show that a lot more than, "  almost no" people claim to have personally seen or experienced a ghost.

The comment does not go to either the reality of ghosts not the similarities or differences between believers and atheists but to the commonality of ghost sightings Ie not people who just believe in ghosts but those who  personally claim to have met one or more.  (in america and britain) Some ghosts are nice, but one understanding would be that the trauma associated with death, which generates the energy residue we perceive as a ghost , also means that most ghosts are not happy chappies (the convict ghost at  pt arthur who enjoys  touching squeezing and pinching good looking young women seems to be a bit of an exception. :)

 The ghost who inhabited our house for 20 years or so, had hanged herself in the mid 1800s after all 12 of her  young children succumbed to diphtheria over  3  winters  She would moan, "where are you" and ,"shut the door,"   but otherwise  was no problem.

We felt sorry for her, and she didn't worry or scare us.  This was a well known ghost   (as i discovered after she moved in and i started researching her background) sighted by dozens of people over 120 years ,and who had haunted her home so effectively that it was abandoned and known as "the ghost house " It burned down in a fire in  the late 1970s,  after which she moved in with us in our home, just across the valley from her original abode  Apart from poltergeists, most ghosts seem incapable of physically interacting with people or the environment, meaning there is nothing to be afraid about them.  Again, the port arthur ghost is one of several known exceptions  and some ghosts seem able to create damp and cold spots as they manifest. 

I might have been mistaken, but it seemed you were judging that ghosts do not exist because so few were sighted, and so few humans ever experienced one.

It doesn't prove they do exist but, actually, LOTS of humans have had an experience with a ghost .   I am not sure i have ever met an older person who, in their lifetime, has not encountered at least one (if you can believe them) . 

 

Everyone, even scientists knows paranormal exists which is why the word 'paranormal' exists. The problem is proving/disproving what the paranormal is exactly. Hallucinations or other neurological complexities of our brains that we still have much to learn about? A natural phenomena of our planet caused by *insert anything here*.? Perhaps the answer lies in gravitational waves or the reason why photons act differently when being observed vs not observed. Perhaps a natural function of a multi-universe colliding. Perhaps the answer lies in the 6th dimension or some other. Perhaps objects or specific objects are more capable of storing data/resonent energy and replaying them in a holographic sort of way. We know that certain mediums can record and playback data, the question is under what mechanisms or circumstances? 

The non believers are just as bad as the believers. Rather than speculate for or against based on what we do 'know' about reality and our best modern theoretical models, they dismiss without question, often without correlating it to existing knowledge which if 1 is true then the other must be a part of. In other words, people believe and disbelieve based on the limitations of what they know or put too much faith into what they don't know without correlating modern theoretical models. Theoretical physics holds more plausible platforms for hypotheses on the hows and whys of possible existence after death. Clearly we understand theres more to reality than what we are capable of measuring atm but that doesn't mean a ghost is of a deceased human, then again it doesn't mean it's not a deceased human either.

For example, the super geometry. These pics are just part of a visual of a theoretical physics model which seeks to explain the paranormal. They don't explain much on their own without a ton of reading but they illustrate my point. These are the kinds of things that both skeptics and believers need to research into and be objective about rather than just blindly dismissing or believing. Why not observe the age old idea of an afterlife the same way that we observe how the pyramids were built for example? I mean you have to put some logic behind what you are dismissing or believing in which means none of us will be able to answer one way or the other despite what skeptics and believers here constantly try to enforce. Rather we should keep an open mind.

20170602_193141.jpg

20170602_193208.jpg

20170602_193325.jpg

 

If I get a chance, I'd like to make a thread that further explains the above illustrations. But it would probably be ridiculously long and complicated.

 

On 5/22/2017 at 9:04 PM, Frank Merton said:

You have no idea how many times I've heard this refrain that "there are so many reports that it must be true" about aliens, monsters, Noah's flood, Sasquatch, miracles, demons and demon possessions, etc,, etc., ad nauseum.  Belief is a strange thing and when it gets a hold on a gullible person it just won't let go no matter how stupid the idea is.

In scientific investigation, testimony is automatically disregarded.  There are too many attention seekers, fraudsters, mental cases, and simple mistakes based on prior wishful thinking and bias.  All you say is just testimony.  It is not evidence for anything -- let alone some extraordinary claim.

Perhaps you misread. I said words such a speculate, data and theory...I never said evidence, we don't have the technology to gather scientific evidence outside of basic measurements, audio and video data which cannot be replicated in a science lab..therefore it could never be concrete evidence, grey evidence at best. My contention was speculative based on  data where I hypothesize a plausible theory based on physicists mathematical work regarding theories of how the 9 dimensions may work.

Therefore for sake of arguments if..IF ghosts are remnants of the dead by however you define it, then that requires a natural process governed by the laws of physics for each dimension which means ghosts would have to be extra dimensional with limited 3rd dimensional existence/interactions which could explain why hauntings are so odd/strange or to say doesn't make logical sense as the theoretical 4th and higher dimensions don't make any sense either, likely due to our limitations of 3rd dimensional physical restrictions on our consciousness 

You can be Athiest and believe in anything else outside of Gods which is what an Atheist is. You can also believe that your job is a real job but it's still all up to interpretation isn't it? That's all reality is, global variants of interpretation based on measurements that we deem to be scientific fact because we have no other discourse.

 

 

 

Edited by NightScreams
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On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 1:53 PM, acute said:

For me, the problem is the term "atheist".

I believe in ghosts, mainly because I lived in a haunted house for 20+ years, but I don't believe in deities.

I see God as the central body of consciousness that we split away from when we are born,  then return to when we die.

That is very interesting to me. That is the kind of response I was hoping for with this. Most have just given me the definition of atheism, which I knew when I posted this. I wanted to hear from someone who fits the question with personal experience.

Most of all I have many questions about the haunted house. What kinds of things did you experience? If you don't believe in a deities, how would the collective consciousness or collective soul differ from a common idea of a god? And how are the hauntings you've experienced relate to that idea of the central body?

I started another thread on ideas of "God". I would love to have your thoughts of that there. I like your idea on that a lot, but it would derail this subject to get into it more here.

Edited by nephili
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On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 6:54 PM, NightScreams said:

we don't have the technology to gather scientific evidence outside of basic measurements, audio and video data which cannot be replicated in a science lab..therefore it could never be concrete evidence, grey evidence at best.

 

 

 

 

In your own opinion, do you believe we will have technology in the future to prove the paranormal? I'm a firm believer that technology will someday be able to prove or disprove everything from psychics to "God" if we have long enough as a species.

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4 hours ago, nephili said:

In your own opinion, do you believe we will have technology in the future to prove the paranormal? I'm a firm believer that technology will someday be able to prove or disprove everything from psychics to "God" if we have long enough as a species.

As far as pure scientific hard evidence then at best it would be pretty far into the future if ever at all. We still have many theoretical physics to solve, first and foremost would be to prove that our universe exists in 10 dimensions (more or less) and then on top of that show how they work as I suspect that is the key to understanding what the paranormal is exactly then they would have to prove that our consciousness exists separate of our bodies for it to have any personal meaning to us. Problem is most physicists just try to form theories based on all the known forces in our universe...this is why they shun ideas of an afterlife cause they don't look at any reference (such as unexplainable hauntings as they are easy to scrutinize from a distance)  Scientific perspectives still bias the paranormal into that of religion..basically faith. Einstien was the only one I'm aware of that attempted to put God into any of his theories that later got ridiculed. I imagine it's not easy for scientists to even acknowledge the paranormal into equations of modern physics but if ghosts are real then they have to fall into our natural universe somehow.

I think we are a solid 150 or more years away from even beginning to prove all the dimensions exist in the way superstring theory suggests. According to superstring, In the 5th dimension, we would see a world slightly different from our own that would give us a means of measuring the similarity and differences between our world and other possible ones. In the 6th, we would see a plane of possible worlds, where we could compare and position all the possible universes that start with the same initial conditions as this one such as the Big Bang. In theory, if you could master the fifth and sixth dimension, you could travel back in time or go to different future....I suspect that IF the afterlife exists, then it's most likely that our consciousness exists in the 5th or 6th. But since we can't go into these dimensions ourselves, we have no way to measure anything...so it may be impossible for us to ever do.

 As far as grey scientific evidence we at least have the Scole experiment, also known as the S-files. It was a well organized scientific investigation of over 500 experiments that I'm not sure how many here know much about but probably the closest that I know of where scientists were able to show repeatedly in what was essentially a laboratory. However it isn't immune from scrutiny and doesn't appear to be accepted by the mainstream in any meaningful way. But the evidence gathered is interesting nonetheless. An overview here : http://www.thescoleexperiment.com/the-scole-experiment-overview.html

Edited by NightScreams
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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm an athiest but I've always been fascinated with the paranormal, right back to when I was a kid in the 1970's.  I can remember, as a teenager, scouring libraries for books on the subject, no internet back then.  I don't know if I believe in ghost, I've never seen one, but I do like to hear from people who have.  I'm not a skeptic as in I will find an explanation and shoot down ALL arguments for if ghosts exist, but there is a lot of obvious BS out there too.  I'm not sure if there is a spiritual component to what happens after we die, I honestly think this life is all we have, but there is a niggle, not a religious one, a spiritual niggle, that just might be more.

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