Can an Atheist believe in ghosts?

[quiXilver]

We do not perceive all of reality.  But the logical mind will try and logically explain everything it encounters... that's what it does and I'm glad it does... however, that is not always going to be required, or possible, since there are levels of reality that we can't even interact with, so will thus not be able to logically explain, yet we see their effects and call them mysteries.

There are levels of energy and vibration that our senses simply cannot interact with... touch, sight, smell, sound taste... all of the senses have their range of frequency.  Yet we see affects on our solar system and galaxies that prove, even to the logical mind, that there are vast amounts of energy in just the observable universe that we can't explain... the term dark matter is how science chooses to acknowledge this observation.

We see the affect, yet we can't perceive all the acting components and don't have a means of explaining it yet. Words cannot convey meaning when we can't even interact with something on a sensual scale.  All experience is either thought, or senses...

Miracles, Mysteries... involve aspects of energy that the senses can't fully register.  How we explain them to others when we have them, is based on the cognitive filters of our thinking process.

Have you ever had an experience that didn't involve either thinking or sensation?  Yet our senses and our mind do not perceive all the energy that is affecting our reality.  Our technology allows us to peer just a bit further in either direction, outward and inward, but even these instruments have our own fallacies and limitations built into them, as they must interact with us in the realm of our senses and being made by humans, they reflect our own limitations inherent in our nature.  And this is ok to me. 

Miraculous events are to me, not supernatural, but examples of phenomena, that involve aspects of reality that our human instrument cannot fully interact with, or that we only see the sum of the actions, but not all the parts that go into the process.  As our logical mind does the only thing it should do, it tries to make sense of it in terms of thoughts, ideas, words and concepts, we formulate stories and explanations, but these will be loaded with our personal and familial and cultural filters.  So they will often seem odd and inaccurate to those who don't share our filters.  Let alone the fact that they are attempting to describe the indescribable to begin with... so I'm ok with not always 'getting' someone else when they attempt to share this stuff. 

I just have no more energy for who is right and wrong... it's so absurd to me... people all perceiving a different facet of one gem and arguing over the shape and the color.  Bruce said it best in matters of this nature "Don't think!  Feel.  it's like a finger pointing to the moon... don't look at the finger or you miss the heavenly glory/(mystery/miracle)".  Things of this nature are not compressible and understandable in the logical mind and the part of the brain used in communication... this is ok.

Words, word/symbols and thought-forms of this nature are not capable of fully communicating an experiential phenomena that lies outside our full ability to even interact with... so when we do cram the experience into words... we frame our words from the filters of our perception of the experience and it is inevitably unsatisfying, incomplete or even absurd in the end. 

Add to that our senses aren't not fully accurate to begin with and you see why observers have railed against Naive Realism since the time of the Greeks.  Naive Realism is the false assumption that we observe reality accurately and that we make good interpretations of those observations... when often, we aren't even aware that we are making an interpretation at all and falsy operate on the premise that we see the world the same as everyone else.  If this were the case, then why would we disagree so often, even over the most mundane of situations?  Husserl put it more succinctly.  All perception is based on gamble.

We do not observe reality accurately and further, when we attempt to communicate this process, this process is an interpretion of the experience... not the experience itself. 

Whenever we speak, we are offering others our interpretation of the senses' experience.  I have never had your experience as you have never had mine.  I try to convey in words and ideas what my experience was... and often there is misunderstanding... but what then happens when this experience I am attempting to convey lies outside the ken of my senses to fully interact with...  It's like trying to collect mist with a knife.

Experiences do not always easily reduce down to being able to be communicated and fully explained with the part of our mind that makes words and symbols and logical sense of things and this is perfectly ok to me.  I don't worry about it any more.  it's just ok.  We are the way we are.  We encounter something with our senses that we can't fully interact with in a logical manner and when we convey this experience the words and filters we use, will make sense to some, not to others... this is ok to me too.

Far more important to me in these matters is not that I can agree that a person saw an angel, or a ghost, or experienced spontaneous healing with no apparent cause.  What I key in on now, is the manner in which it affected them and how that affects me in relationship with them.  Far more important than the particulars of how their mind tries to interpret the experience... is how it affected their life and their understanding or experience of reality.  And how that then affects everyone they come in contact with... 

 

Edited May 12, 2017 by quiXilver
delete duplicated phrase

[Galactic Goatman]

I'm an atheist and a believe in ghosts.

[BarnCat68]

On ‎5‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 3:38 PM, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

I don't see why not, ghosts don't usually have a religious dimension, in fact I expect some Bishop somewhere has probably said that a christian shouldn't believe in ghosts (apart from the Holy one, of course). I suppose atheists might also claim that they're rational and unsuperstitious and so they probably wouldn't believe in ghosts anyway, of course. 

Good point.  All the religious teaching I personally received or endured (church, Sunday School, Bible and Theology classes in HS and college) rejected the idea of the graveyard dead coming back to harass the living. 

This was a question, in fact, that came up in my confirmation classes re. the Witch of Endor.  We kids were divided/undecided.  Our pastor shot down those of us who were either believers in the paranormal or unsure and declared most emphatically that there are no such things as ghosts.  His belief was that 'apparitions', shadow people, poltergeister, messages from the 'beyond' etc. are demonic in origin.

Most Christians that I have known over the years believed that the dead have passed on to another existence where they are no longer troubled by the cares of this world.

[BarnCat68]

On ‎5‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 4:04 PM, Essan said:

Obviously it all comes down to what you think ghosts are (I personally dont think they are spirits of the dead any more than they are adverts for dog food. But I do not deny that some people have seen/experienced things that are not explainable with current knowledge).  And I have never seen one.

But I am curious as to what Christians (or members of other religions) think they are,given that,on death,one goes to either heaven or hell?  (or gets reincarnated)

I am aware that in stories, for dramatic effect, they are often souls who are for some reason unable to "move on". But how does that fit in with mainstream religious teaching?

Being a atheist doesnt affect my belief in ghosts any more than it affects my belief in UFOs

The usual answer that I have heard given by Christians is that 'ghosts' and most paranormal type experiences are deceptions of Satan.  In other words, the poltergeist in the tool shed is really just a demon wearing a ghost costume.

[Kurzweil]

On 5/9/2017 at 0:35 PM, nephili said:

 

And if someone tells you they have seen a ghost or believes they have had a paranormal experience, wouldn't that mean they can't be Atheist?

 

No. That just means they can't be trusted.

[nephili]

14 hours ago, Kurzweil said:

No. That just means they can't be trusted.

I believe that some can be trusted. I have known some very trustworthy people with some fantastic stories.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

On 5/9/2017 at 3:38 PM, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

I don't see why not, ghosts don't usually have a religious dimension, in fact I expect some Bishop somewhere has probably said that a christian shouldn't believe in ghosts (apart from the Holy one, of course). I suppose atheists might also claim that they're rational and unsuperstitious and so they probably wouldn't believe in ghosts anyway, of course. 

I find that this makes sense to me, a bit. This kind of reminds me of a personal website years ago of a woman who  at the Haunted Walson Hospital on MAFB, NJ here on this board, yet boast strongly her belief in her Christianity. I wonder at this, maybe seeing it as a double standard or something similar. 

I feel, that there have been more accounts from many more witnesses of seeing ghosts, then there are those who claim their prayers have been really objectively answered. So, I'm like 'why not' with the OP's question. 

On 5/9/2017 at 4:10 PM, Orphalesion said:

I could be completely wrong here, but aren't some forms of Buddhism atheistic, but believe in Reincarnation and restless spirits?

Also some Ancient Greek Philosophies?

And some streams within New Age?

I once knew an Atheist who was very superstitious (she once yelled at me for unfolding an umbrella inside a building) I found that very perplexing.  Then again I also find it perplexing when other Christians  bring up their believes in Young Earth Creationism.

I do that. *looks sheepish* I get creeped out with opening umbrellas indoors.  

On 5/9/2017 at 5:42 PM, XenoFish said:

The easiest way to figure it out is to ask yourself how your spiritual beliefs make you feel. 

Warning Subjective Opinions Ahead!

I feel that people believe in ghost because they are afraid not only of death but of being gone forever. 

In the case of ufo's I think it's partially about cosmic loneliness. The whole, "What if we're it?" dilemma.

As for things like bigfoot and nessie, that might just be curiosity at play.

When it comes to things like occultism and religion it's really people trying to fill a need in their lives. The need for control, security, etc. And it really depends on the individual as well. I would like for ghost to be real, but with so much fake and fraudulent claims I've given up. Plus years of occultism lead to some crazy trippy experiences that convinced me that ghost exist, but again I actually looked into what was going on in my head, it debunked itself. When it comes to the paranormal or supernatural I am still agnostic about it. I just need real and solid evidence before I jump on that bandwagon again.

I find that an interesting thought. And I think that maybe the case with a lot, but for me, it's different. One, it's getting a thrill of hearing different experiences in mundane places. It's also getting to know the history and cultural aspect of what is part of the ghost and why they are there to haunt. 

On 5/10/2017 at 11:01 AM, nephili said:

These are some really good responses. I really only asked because most of the Atheist I know generally say you die, that's it. There is nothing else. But the same people can turn around and say some of the most fantastical stories of ghosts and other paranormal happenings. I guess I can see where someone could not believe in a god but still believe in something resembling a soul.

Of course that is assuming that ghosts have anything to do with dead people at all. I have talked with people who believe they are everything from apparitions from other dimensions to cloaked humans from the future to glitches in the "matrix". I've heard some colorful ideas.

I feel a forum like this is a great way to get points to take into a conversation about things like this.

I have often heard and read, that some could be recordings of the emotional energy of the event of the ghost. Even if the 'ghost' is still living now. (Like residual hauntings)

On 5/12/2017 at 5:08 AM, kartikg said:

believing in ghosts and not believing in God is choosing the greater of two evils. 

Choosing? I don't think you choose to believe or not to believe. You just do, because of evidence or lack there of. I have found that growing up secular has shown me that I can't fully believe in a God that some do. That doesn't say that it's evil to not believe. I have had numerous experiences I feel are related to ghosts, and I actually feel for the ghosts. I find that encouraging my compassion for more. 

 

[Only_]

On 2017-05-10 at 11:01 AM, nephili said:

These are some really good responses. I really only asked because most of the Atheist I know generally say you die, that's it. There is nothing else. But the same people can turn around and say some of the most fantastical stories of ghosts and other paranormal happenings. I guess I can see where someone could not believe in a god but still believe in something resembling a soul.

There's some serious obstacles, though, for an atheist trying to explain the existence of spirits and the soul. For where does the soul originate from? The theist's answer is God, the Source (which is logical) but the atheist-spiritualist will struggle to come up with a coherent answer.

Edited May 20, 2017 by TruthSeeker_

[GlitterRose]

Sure. It might not be in the same way that other people do.

[XenoFish]

41 minutes ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

There's some serious obstacles, though, for an atheist trying to explain the existence of spirits and the soul. For where does the soul originate from? The theist's answer is God, the Source (which is logical) but the atheist-spiritualist will struggle to come up with a coherent answer.

What if there is no answer. What if it just is? Let's entertain that for a minute, let's say that souls and spirits do exist. Then they must be a natural part of the whole cosmic build kit. Meaning they are a part of the universe just as we are. 

[GlitterRose]

4 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

What if there is no answer. What if it just is? Let's entertain that for a minute, let's say that souls and spirits do exist. Then they must be a natural part of the whole cosmic build kit. Meaning they are a part of the universe just as we are. 

See you worded that much better than I did.

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, ChaosRose said:

See you worded that much better than I did.

I sometimes have a way with words. Everyone tends to think in black and white with all this. I look for the grey patches.

[GlitterRose]

2 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I sometimes have a way with words. Everyone tends to think in black and white with all this. I look for the grey patches.

Ha...I just noticed you're the Eternal Pessimist. 

We just keep having things in common.

[XenoFish]

When I really think of the possibility of ghost I can't see it happening. I can fully understand grief induced phantoms or the lethargy vision of a sleep deprived mind. Even deep focus and produce such illusions.

[GlitterRose]

Hey, ya know...it'd be really awesome if there was some higher power that was going to save us from ourselves. It would certainly be late to the party, but ah well. 

I chalk it up to not likely to happen. So we'd better be looking to fix our own ****.

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, ChaosRose said:

Hey, ya know...it'd be really awesome if there was some higher power that was going to save us from ourselves. It would certainly be late to the party, but ah well. 

I chalk it up to not likely to happen. So we'd better be looking to fix our own ****.

Now imagine a world where God does answer prayers. We'd never grow as a species, never have to do anything, all our needs would be met with just a prayer. But in the real world we've got to work for anything and everything. I think this is the same reason magick doesn't work like people hope it does. It would just make you lazier.

[Only_]

2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

What if there is no answer. What if it just is? Let's entertain that for a minute, let's say that souls and spirits do exist. Then they must be a natural part of the whole cosmic build kit. Meaning they are a part of the universe just as we are. 

Indeed, spirits most likely are a part of the natural Universe. An unknown force, like electricity for instance, but a force which modern science has not (yet) figured out. But then you gotta ask: where does these laws of nature come from? It just ''is'' doesn't make much sense to me.

Edited May 20, 2017 by TruthSeeker_

[Rlyeh]

7 hours ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

There's some serious obstacles, though, for an atheist trying to explain the existence of spirits and the soul. For where does the soul originate from? The theist's answer is God, the Source (which is logical) but the atheist-spiritualist will struggle to come up with a coherent answer.

Isn't that the theist's answer to everything?

In what way is your made up force logical?

[Frank Merton]

31 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

Isn't that the theist's answer to everything?

In what way is your made up force logical?

I'm an atheist and I don't "believe" in or against anything.  My opinion is there is no God, no demons, no angels, no ghosts, no pixies, no fairies (well maybe a few) no deep sea monsters, no hairy apes wandering the world's forests, no aliens buzzing our planet or spying on us, no psychotics or superpowers, no supernatural, not even anything lurking under my bed.  That is called rationalism.  If one of these opinions proves wrong, then great, but it is not likely.

[docyabut2]

 I guess I am  some what of  Atheist and a Christian, cause I don nt believe in  a supreme  being of love would have created this place of such suffering , a God.  I do believe in the paranormal, I had to many signs of it.   There is a Creator, but I don't think anyone really knows what it is. Perhaps we are all humans robots that were created to probe and record life experiences  and Jesus was one of us bringing us hope  in the  love of one another.

Edited May 21, 2017 by docyabut2

[+Nuclear Wessel]

Atheism is the lack of a belief in a god or gods. Ghosts are not gods, thus I see no reason why an atheist could not believe in ghosts independently of gods.

[+Nuclear Wessel]

On 5/9/2017 at 3:05 PM, quiXilver said:

To me Atheism is a declaration of belief.  One that states 'there is no god'.  Simple, direct, very understandable

Except atheism is not declaration of a belief, nor does atheism state that there are no gods... it simply is a lack of a belief in a god or gods. It is not an assertion of "there are no gods".

[Only_]

1 hour ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

Except atheism is not declaration of a belief, nor does atheism state that there are no gods... it simply is a lack of a belief in a god or gods. It is not an assertion of "there are no gods".

Don't be fooled. Atheists may not believe in a God or gods, but they do have assumptions in how the Universe came to be.

Edited May 21, 2017 by TruthSeeker_

[KNash]

I think it depends on what an Athiest's definition of a ghost is. I know that the potential existence of ghosts suggests that there is an afterlife and some people might think that to believe in the afterlife means to believe in a higher power, but why? Who says that the afterlife proves that God or a god exists? Many religions share the belief of a higher power and support the existence of an afterlife, but who is to say there is a connection? Humans give off energy (heat and electricity), there's evidence for it. Following that line of thought, an Athiest could believe that energy left behind by someone who is gone (dead or not) could be considered a "ghost" of sorts. Anyways, I think that focusing on the usual connection of religion and ghosts/energies would need to be discussed before finding answers. I'm also sure that there would be many answers to this question.

[Frank Merton]

If I understand the concept at all, becoming a ghost has got to be about the most awful post-existence conceivable.  You have some sentience -- who can say how much, but can't enjoy any of the pleasures of life (food, sleep, rest, sex, etc.) and cannot even move things except maybe in sudden jerks and it is difficult if not impossible to communicate or even make yourself seen.  No wonder they hide away in old abandoned building among the cobwebs.