Liberal Democrats promise new Brexit vote

[+OverSword]

5 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

I think you have missed the point. Voting to leave shouldn't mean not looking at the fine print and re-evauating your choices. People are perfectly free to change there minds. 

So then Americans should be able to have the presidential race run again and change their vote to Hillary?  Nope.  Where do you get this crap?

5 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

I beg to differ.

So?  You're still comparing apples and seagulls.

[BiffSplitkins]

21 hours ago, OverSword said:

Hasn't this already been voted on?  What is it with the left not being capable of getting on with their lives when the reality that not everyone shares their view smacks them over the head?

I couldn't agree more. It's like the little kid playing Chutes and Ladders and the spinner doesn't stop where he wants it to... so he tried to make up some excuse to spin it again because his last spin didn't count for real. 


 

[BiffSplitkins]

21 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

So if you put your house on the market to sell and you didn't get an acceptable offer, does that mean that you just sell cause the real estate agent thinks you should?

Ugh, that just gave me Forest Whitaker Eye. 

[Unusual Tournament]

13 hours ago, Grey Area said:

I think you are completely missing the point.  You cant run a viable political system where decisions are based on a majority vote and introduce a system of second guessing.  It's silliness, we will start having referendums on whether referendums should be held. 

Sorry, but a decision was made and it needs to stand.  If people have changed their mind, they should have ensured they were making the right choice at the time.  It's a valuable lesson to all, particularly to those millennials that scale the central divide and teeter over to the left.  Choices have consequences, and in a very profound way, inaction has consequences. 

So just to get you on record... let's assume that May negotiates a bad Brexit agreement that is financially negative, you would be ok with that? 

[Unusual Tournament]

12 hours ago, keithisco said:

So... which term in the negotiated deal should we be having a referendum on? What if you like one of the clauses but not another? What if the EU don't want to do a deal at all, would you still want a referendum?

Do you stop and think that if the EU knew that a second referendum was enacted in the terms of "accept the deal or stay in the EU" that they would do anything other than other the most mediocre terms and make the UK suffer as a member.

Where is your pride in this Country- is it really your desire to become a mere supplicant at the EU Table begging for scraps???

Ok. So you believe the UK should Brexit at all cost. Unfortunately not everyone shares your views.

[Unusual Tournament]

9 hours ago, OverSword said:

So then Americans should be able to have the presidential race run again and change their vote to Hillary?  Nope.  Where do you get this crap?

So?  You're still comparing apples and seagulls.

No I never said anything like that. If Trump doesn't keep his promises then he won't get reelected. So what about the brexiteers who promised a better deal outta the EU? Who are they accountable to?

[Frank Merton]

5 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

No I never said anything like that. If Trump doesn't keep his promises then he won't get reelected. So what about the brexiteers who promised a better deal outta the EU? Who are they accountable to?

I wouldn't count on it.  People have convenient memories.

[The Silver Thong]

 The EU is going to break up no matter what. Britian was the smartest rat on the ship. Get off early.

[keithisco]

10 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

Ok. So you believe the UK should Brexit at all cost. Unfortunately not everyone shares your views.

OK. So I believe that you should answer my question. How would YOU phrase a second referendum question? I don't expect you to actually answer this, but at least I have given you the opportunity

[kartikg]

11 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

So just to get you on record... let's assum, e that,  ? May negotiates a bad Brexit agreement that is financially negative, you would be ok with that? 

IMHO brexit was just more than finances, it was about decision sovereign nation should be able to make like border control, capital punishment etc. EU has become more or less a political body than pure economic trading bloc, do you also disagree with Greek sentiment to leave eu due to austerity measures enforced or currently the sentiment in Hungary to leave eu

[The Silver Thong]

4 hours ago, keithisco said:

OK. So I believe that you should answer my question. How would YOU phrase a second referendum question? I don't expect you to actually answer this, but at least I have given you the opportunity

What`s to say. The people have spoken have they not.

[keithisco]

2 minutes ago, The Silver Thong said:

What`s to say. The people have spoken have they not.

Just wanting Capt Risky to contact Lib-Dem HQ to ask them what the question should have been in the first place.....I am sure there will be hundreds of clauses to any eventual agreement (if there is one) so which clauses would we need to have a referendum on?

I think what is missing in this argument is the fact that Art 50 once triggered, allows only 2 years of discussions after which time all of the EU Treaties cease to apply anyway (unless all 28 countries want to continue). There is no "escape clause" written into the Lisbon Treaty so we will exit after 2 years making a 2nd referendum  just pointless as it cannot contain the "Remain in EU" option that, for some reason as an Aussie, he wants.

[The Silver Thong]

3 hours ago, keithisco said:

Just wanting Capt Risky to contact Lib-Dem HQ to ask them what the question should have been in the first place.....I am sure there will be hundreds of clauses to any eventual agreement (if there is one) so which clauses would we need to have a referendum on?

I think what is missing in this argument is the fact that Art 50 once triggered, allows only 2 years of discussions after which time all of the EU Treaties cease to apply anyway (unless all 28 countries want to continue). There is no "escape clause" written into the Lisbon Treaty so we will exit after 2 years making a 2nd referendum  just pointless as it cannot contain the "Remain in EU" option that, for some reason as an Aussie, he wants.

So what I take from that is your against democracy. You won`t be happy till it goes your way. Kinda like Antifa aka Isis.  Trust me, most Canadians want a referendum but we are kinda stuck with a duche bag.  You can`t do it with torches and pick forks.  What the hell is a no escape clause. The people have spoken man. You mention 28 countries under one rule wtf is that about. The Lisbon treaty has expiered. 

 

The Treaty of Lisbon (initially known as the Reform Treaty) is an international agreement which amends the two treaties which form the constitutional basis of the European Union (EU). The Treaty of Lisbon was signed by the EU member states on 13 December 2007, and entered into force on 1 December 2009.

 

 I will warn the planet, If the people no longer matter there will be cival war everywhere.

and entered into force on 1 December 2009.

 I don`t like those words.

 

a nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory.

"the country's increasingly precarious economic position"

synonyms:

nation, (sovereign) state, kingdom, realm, territory, province, principality, palatinate, duchy More   The EU does not represent that.

Edited May 19, 2017 by The Silver Thong

[keithisco]

32 minutes ago, The Silver Thong said:

So what I take from that is your against democracy. You won`t be happy till it goes your way. Kinda like Antifa aka Isis.  Trust me, most Canadians want a referendum but we are kinda stuck with a duche bag.  You can`t do it with torches and pick forks.  What the hell is a no escape clause. The people have spoken man. You mention 28 countries under one rule wtf is that about. The Lisbon treaty has expiered. 

 

The Treaty of Lisbon (initially known as the Reform Treaty) is an international agreement which amends the two treaties which form the constitutional basis of the European Union (EU). The Treaty of Lisbon was signed by the EU member states on 13 December 2007, and entered into force on 1 December 2009.

 

 I will warn the planet, If the people no longer matter there will be cival war everywhere.

and entered into force on 1 December 2009.

 I don`t like those words.

 

a nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory.

"the country's increasingly precarious economic position"

synonyms:

nation, (sovereign) state, kingdom, realm, territory, province, principality, palatinate, duchy More   The EU does not represent that.

I think you have totally misunderstood my post. I am pointing out to Capt Risky the preposterousness of his demanding a 2nd referendum. The 1st referendum was decisive and overrides any Lib-Dem whining on for a 2nd one. Art 50 in the Lisbon Treaty is clear - there is no way of cancelling the exit mechanism once it is triggered

Note: The Lisbon Treaty has not expired.

Edited May 19, 2017 by keithisco

[The Silver Thong]

4 minutes ago, keithisco said:

I think you have totally misunderstood my post. I am pointing out to Capt Risky the preposterousness of his demanding a 2nd referendum. The 1st referendum was decisive and overrides any Lib-Dem whining on for a 2nd one. Art 50 in the Lisbon Treaty is clear - there is no way of cancelling the exit mechanism once it is triggered

Ok maybe I gotya wrong. Thanks for the post. If I read  this one right I agree.

Edited May 19, 2017 by The Silver Thong

[Unusual Tournament]

9 hours ago, keithisco said:

OK. So I believe that you should answer my question. How would YOU phrase a second referendum question? I don't expect you to actually answer this, but at least I have given you the opportunity

How about... ' should the UK brexit on the deal struct by May '

[keithisco]

12 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

How about... ' should the UK brexit on the deal struct by May '

As previously stated, there is no choice about Brexit-it will happen under the terms of Art 50 on the 2nd anniversary of it being triggered. The Commons and the Lords will have a vote, and it can only be a Binary vote

[Unusual Tournament]

9 hours ago, kartikg said:

IMHO brexit was just more than finances, it was about decision sovereign nation should be able to make like border control, capital punishment etc. EU has become more or less a political body than pure economic trading bloc, do you also disagree with Greek sentiment to leave eu due to austerity measures enforced or currently the sentiment in Hungary to leave eu

Greece has no one to blame but itself. It borrowed heavily on falsified figures and refused to enact reforms. Look i feel for the Greek people but you can only live within your means.

Were the French and Germans too hard on Greece? I think they were.

Should Europe offer meaningful debt relief? Most definitely.

Will leaving the EU help countries like Greece and Hungary? doubtful.  

[Unusual Tournament]

8 minutes ago, keithisco said:

As previously stated, there is no choice about Brexit-it will happen under the terms of Art 50 on the 2nd anniversary of it being triggered. The Commons and the Lords will have a vote, and it can only be a Binary vote

So that leaves me with my original statement: Brexit at all costs. And once the UK brexits and the future isn't that rosy would it be ok in your opinion to have another referendum? 

[keithisco]

Whether you wish to characterise it as "Brexit at all costs" ;"Hard Brexit", "Clean Brexit": Soft Brexit" is completely irrelevant it is just Brexit and its terms will be dictated by the EU Commission in accordance with whatever puerile assinine position they adopt, or there will be no agreement whatsoever.

A referendum on what exactly? Joining the Euro, accepting Schengen, accepting 3rd nation immigration as and when dictated by Brussels? For that is required of all new accession applicants.

[Unusual Tournament]

I don't think your argument is in the majority. Successful Brexit was always dependent on the EU being generous in their terms of separation. Which is amusing considering that the debate was on taking back control.

Time will tell. 

[The Silver Thong]

5 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

Should Europe offer meaningful debt relief? Most definitely.

Will leaving the EU help countries like Greece and Hungary? doubtful.  

Why should France pay for Sweden. Why should Germany pay for Romania. Why should Britian Pay for the free loaders. Bail out man. Brixiet was a great thing imo. Greece and Hungary created there own probleblems because they listened to people like you.  Every country has a right to set there own rules. If you don`t like it, p*** off.

Edited May 20, 2017 by The Silver Thong

[Unusual Tournament]

On 19/05/2017 at 2:49 AM, BiffSplitkins said:

I couldn't agree more. It's like the little kid playing Chutes and Ladders and the spinner doesn't stop where he wants it to... so he tried to make up some excuse to spin it again because his last spin didn't count for real. 


 

I see your point. I guess leave means leave and it should be honoured. But taking an autistic approach to Brexit and it's future dealings with Europe shouldn't really be the bench mark to leave. Just spitting the dummy and breaking off ties like many in this thread would like and expecting those that voted the other way to accept that is unreasonable and not in the spirt of democracy. 

[BiffSplitkins]

On 5/20/2017 at 0:23 AM, Captain Risky said:

I see your point. I guess leave means leave and it should be honoured. But taking an autistic approach to Brexit and it's future dealings with Europe shouldn't really be the bench mark to leave. Just spitting the dummy and breaking off ties like many in this thread would like and expecting those that voted the other way to accept that is unreasonable and not in the spirt of democracy. 

Accepting the outcome of a legal vote in a society that you choose to live in and follow the rules of; it is an important function of making such a society succeed. 

[keithisco]

Hopefully for the last time... negotiations are a 2 way event (or actually a 1-27 way event). If the UK are offered totally ridiculous terms that would tie our hands after Brexit, or if we are told to pay an unjustifiably huge divorce bill, or to accept freedom of movement (when no other 3rd nation has been so directed) then it is Brussels, and Brussels alone that bears the responsibility for a "no deal" scenario.

The UK is entirely ready to negotiate from a sensible starting position and has not said that "everything has to be agreed before a deal is signed".