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The War on Drugs is based on FAKE SCIENCE!


Yamato

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More political "science" selling inhuman fed gov policies....wow doesn't this look familiar.  

 

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It was never about science. It was about mass incarceration of minorities and the poor.

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it is based on real profits and lies,  they do not give a damn what color you are, all are green to them. 

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It is just dumb.

They can't even keep Drugs out of a Federal Penitentiary, to hell with it all. 

Time to shut this one down.

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Yeah, the war in drugs has never had a basis in reality.

Good thing the new attorney General doesn't support it. Oh wait....

Edited by Imaginarynumber1
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I think it depends on the drug and the biases of the scientist.  There seem to be some people who think that any chemical that gives pleasure has got to be bad and therefore should be illegal with long prison sentences and ruined lives.

A distinction needs to be made between chemicals that are addictive in a serious way and chemicals that harm your health or your ability to function or can kill you.

I'm addicted to coffee -- if I don't have it in the morning I get a headache, feel depressed and cranky, and so on.  So should coffee be illegal -- considering it also helps me in many ways and actually probably improves my overall health.

In the 19th century some pretty prominent people were heroine addicts, and, like marijuana junkies today, functioned well if not better than without it.  Alcohol and cigarettes are of course the real killer here but no one dare say so -- the spectre of the societal malfunction known as prohibition remains in the history.  

Still, there are some drugs that lead to psychosis or even death, and others that lead to wasting away.  

I think the whole thing needs to be taken out of the political/law enforcement arena and put into the medical arena.

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1 hour ago, AnchorSteam said:

It is just dumb.

They can't even keep Drugs out of a Federal Penitentiary, to hell with it all. 

Time to shut this one down.

I don't think that the politicians want try hard enough. I really can't see whats so hard about identifying those that deal and dealing with them. 

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13 minutes ago, Frank Merton said:

I think it depends on the drug and the biases of the scientist.  There seem to be some people who think that any chemical that gives pleasure has got to be bad and therefore should be illegal with long prison sentences and ruined lives.

A distinction needs to be made between chemicals that are addictive in a serious way and chemicals that harm your health or your ability to function or can kill you.

I'm addicted to coffee -- if I don't have it in the morning I get a headache, feel depressed and cranky, and so on.  So should coffee be illegal -- considering it also helps me in many ways and actually probably improves my overall health.

In the 19th century some pretty prominent people were heroine addicts, and, like marijuana junkies today, functioned well if not better than without it.  Alcohol and cigarettes are of course the real killer here but no one dare say so -- the spectre of the societal malfunction known as prohibition remains in the history.  

Still, there are some drugs that lead to psychosis or even death, and others that lead to wasting away.  

I think the whole thing needs to be taken out of the political/law enforcement arena and put into the medical arena.

...and the violence that it spawns, Frank, does that also go into rehab? 

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2 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

I don't think that the politicians want try hard enough. I really can't see whats so hard about identifying those that deal and dealing with them. 

Its the same thing as with Terrorism, Poverty, the environment and a thousand other things. The Swamp has found that it is far more profitable and empowering to "fight" the problem without solving it.

Ever.

Just keep claiming higher budgets, taking more power from themselves, and keep blaming everyone else for their failures. 

Now do you get why so many of us are so eager to drain the Swamp?

 

They can't stand against us if we work together, can't we give it a try?

Can't we tune out the hired talking heads, and talk to each other?

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13 minutes ago, AnchorSteam said:

 

 

They can't stand against us if we work together, can't we give it a try?

 

and that is exactly when SJW come in, to make sure it does not happen

Edited by aztek
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44 minutes ago, AnchorSteam said:

Its the same thing as with Terrorism, Poverty, the environment and a thousand other things. The Swamp has found that it is far more profitable and empowering to "fight" the problem without solving it.

Ever.

Just keep claiming higher budgets, taking more power from themselves, and keep blaming everyone else for their failures. 

Now do you get why so many of us are so eager to drain the Swamp?

 

They can't stand against us if we work together, can't we give it a try?

Can't we tune out the hired talking heads, and talk to each other?

That "drain the swamp" rhetoric came out what, two weeks before the election?    That was music to my ears, the title of my song, and what I wanted to believe.   But I didn't believe it then and definitely don't believe it now. 

Not to carry this into another Donald Trump thread by borrowing his campaign rhetoric because the "War on Drugs" long predates Donald Trump. 

I like your bigger point though that it really is similar to a thousand other things.   Fight the problem without ever solving it ever.  Health would be another example and probably the biggest example of all.   Health Ranger has nothing bad to say about Trump but plenty bad to say about that.

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47 minutes ago, AnchorSteam said:

Its the same thing as with Terrorism, Poverty, the environment and a thousand other things. The Swamp has found that it is far more profitable and empowering to "fight" the problem without solving it.

Ever.

Just keep claiming higher budgets, taking more power from themselves, and keep blaming everyone else for their failures. 

Now do you get why so many of us are so eager to drain the Swamp?

 

They can't stand against us if we work together, can't we give it a try?

Can't we tune out the hired talking heads, and talk to each other?

Well said.  I would lump drug companies and insurance companies and others in that swamp too.  They have got quite a grip on our lives.

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The drug companies are the primary movers of the war on drugs.  "War on Drugs 2.0" should consist of Americans going to war on the drug companies but how much damage is going to be done before that process ever went critical?  

I think we should all be on a war-footing against the chemical industry, which the "pharmaceutical" industry broke off from at some point because that name was more consumer-friendly.   Consumers of drugs don't want to think they're taking "chemicals."  "Meds" is so much friendlier!    It's not "Big Drugs", it's "Big Pharma!"    It's all a marketing scheme and it's acutely important especially to sell the bottles of lies and false hopes to the "Just Say No" generation.

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19 hours ago, Yamato said:

That "drain the swamp" rhetoric came out what, two weeks before the election?    That was music to my ears, the title of my song, and what I wanted to believe.   But I didn't believe it then and definitely don't believe it now. 

 

Why? Don't blame me if  your automatic opposition to anything even remotely connected to Trump keeps you outside of a solution to any of this. But ask yourself; why is it the Goll 'ol Boy network inside the GOP is always so opposed to Trump, even more so than the Dems when it comes to what is inside by bubble?

 

And honestly, screw the idea that this is always going to be all about Trump!

Is there nothing at all in any conceivable situation that can possibly get the Left and the Right working together on anything at all?

Because if not, we might as well admit to the reality of a Civil War, and get it over with.

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1 hour ago, AnchorSteam said:

Why? Don't blame me if  your automatic opposition to anything even remotely connected to Trump keeps you outside of a solution to any of this. But ask yourself; why is it the Goll 'ol Boy network inside the GOP is always so opposed to Trump, even more so than the Dems when it comes to what is inside by bubble?

 

And honestly, screw the idea that this is always going to be all about Trump!

Is there nothing at all in any conceivable situation that can possibly get the Left and the Right working together on anything at all?

Because if not, we might as well admit to the reality of a Civil War, and get it over with.

Why don't I believe it?   Because nothing's been drained.   We have even bigger government, even bigger spending, the same old swamp creatures resurrected out of the marsh.  

Like the swamp, candidate Trump talked about the Bubble too.  Well the economy's no "bubble" anymore.  He won the election.

Now that I've disassociated with the Left and the Right in equal and deserving measure, I don't feel any need or see any point in them working together more than they already are.   Maybe they shouldn't work together at all?   Maybe they should fight each other a lot harder?     What they do together is far more destructive to the country than even what they do alone.   I see it from the other end.  Isn't there enough "bipartisanship" already?    If there was NO bipartisanship whatsoever this would be a better government.   It's all those porky compromise bills where "one side" gets a little of what they want, and the "other side" gets a little of what they want, and We the People wind up with bloated omnibus spending bills and trillions of dollars of national debt.   No thanks AS, we've got plenty enough of that already.   The last thing we need is for them to work together even more than they are already.   They shouldn't have jobs to be able to "work" at all.

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45 minutes ago, Yamato said:

Why don't I believe it?   Because nothing's been drained.   We have even bigger government, even bigger spending, the same old swamp creatures resurrected out of the marsh.  

                            Boy oh boy... trying to convince people to be more Optimistic sure us harder than going the other way...

 

It has only been a few months, and the work has already started. 

45 minutes ago, Yamato said:

Like the swamp, candidate Trump talked about the Bubble too.  Well the economy's no "bubble" anymore.  He won the election.

 

And yet he is still an outsider, and treated very much that way by the Media and the Capitol Hill gang.

According to most indicators, the economy started to pick up the moment he was elected, but I'm, not sure if I believe that so much. Sure, I see new contruction and we are getting a badly needed raise where I work at long last... but speaking of Bubbles, have you see the Stock Market lately?

I dunno...

 

45 minutes ago, Yamato said:

 

  The last thing we need is for them to work together even more than they are already. 

I am not talking about them, I am talking about us.

We the People, and believe it or not, they still have to listen to us. They still have reason to fear us, which is far better than it being totally the other way around.

YES, I agree, the Demicans and Republocrats are far too comfy with each other and they are indeed a disgrace, never more so when they pretend to have an emergency every few months and suddenly come together for some sort of "solution" ... this has become the routine since the Crash of 2008. 

There is a reason why they keep doing dumb things to drive us apart; they can only get away with all their evil crap when we are snarling at each other instead of them.

And they love it that way.

45 minutes ago, Yamato said:

  They shouldn't have jobs to be able to "work" at all.

Again, I agree.

And when the President proposes to turn off the tap and start de-funding the swine, lets back him up instead of believing that the world will choke and die if the EPA is reduced. That is also a good starting point, but every Govt Agency not only has it's own SWAT Teams, it also has PR Specialists that know how to sling the BS.

Shall we just keep allowing them to force-feed us their B.S., or will we trust in each other and let them all know we mean business? 

If we just give up, our children will be debt-slaves and the State will become Big Brother.

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3 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

                            Boy oh boy... trying to convince people to be more Optimistic sure us harder than going the other way...

 

It has only been a few months, and the work has already started. 

And yet he is still an outsider, and treated very much that way by the Media and the Capitol Hill gang.

According to most indicators, the economy started to pick up the moment he was elected, but I'm, not sure if I believe that so much. Sure, I see new contruction and we are getting a badly needed raise where I work at long last... but speaking of Bubbles, have you see the Stock Market lately?

I dunno...

 

I am not talking about them, I am talking about us.

We the People, and believe it or not, they still have to listen to us. They still have reason to fear us, which is far better than it being totally the other way around.

YES, I agree, the Demicans and Republocrats are far too comfy with each other and they are indeed a disgrace, never more so when they pretend to have an emergency every few months and suddenly come together for some sort of "solution" ... this has become the routine since the Crash of 2008. 

There is a reason why they keep doing dumb things to drive us apart; they can only get away with all their evil crap when we are snarling at each other instead of them.

And they love it that way.

Again, I agree.

And when the President proposes to turn off the tap and start de-funding the swine, lets back him up instead of believing that the world will choke and die if the EPA is reduced. That is also a good starting point, but every Govt Agency not only has it's own SWAT Teams, it also has PR Specialists that know how to sling the BS.

Shall we just keep allowing them to force-feed us their B.S., or will we trust in each other and let them all know we mean business? 

If we just give up, our children will be debt-slaves and the State will become Big Brother.

Well said!   If i keep the "I am not talking about them, I am talking about us." context in mind.  

There's anti-Trump nonsense in the press every single day.   Don't think I can't see it and I'm getting sick of it fast.   Like I got sick of all the Hillary-mail.    It's getting close to the time where they either need to put it up or pack it in. 

Relating to the OP, so far the Trump administration has shown some minor moves related to the "war on drugs".   Trump has repeatedly called for cheaper drugs (is that what the problem is?).   I hate this idea because this means more drugs.   It's like Ron Paul says "when you subsidize something, you get more of it."    I don't believe the drugs that are not-included in the "war on drugs" should be taken on their own merit, unless at extreme need which means exceptional cases.  I won't even buy my own drugs, why would I want to buy everyone else's?    On balance, it's like forcing me to hurt people.   Another troubling sign is Attorney General Jefferson Sessions.  A 3rd concern I have is the Executive Orders on crime that are largely correlative with the "war on drugs".   Immigration and the drugs coming up and down the southern border, particularly!

If I look at where all the cannons in the "war on drugs" are pointing, we're going to war on Mexican weed, particularly.   If I had 594 targets in a hypothetical total "war on drugs", Mexican weed would be close to #594.   We're not going to make America great again by getting rid of Mexican drugs.    Mexican drugs help keep American drugs more honest.

What's it all for anyway, but the media's ratings?   Because the garden variety liberal democrat doesn't really want to impeach Trump anyway, Mike Pence is a real conservative, social at least.   To me, Mike Pence has no bearing on my views of impeachment.   Garden liberals are no threat to Trump.   Trump is the threat to Trump, plus the thin strands of people who actually oppose his rule.   Democrats don't really oppose Trump.   As this administration ages I think that'll become more and more clear.   I think the firebrands are going to come from conservatives, libertarians, constitutions, greens, reforms, etc.

While big pharma's drugs aren't cheap enough, the drug cartels' drugs are "cheaper than candy bars."    Trump wants it both ways so this is price warfare, forcing some prices higher and others "lower".  This is central planners fixing prices using brute force.   If we want less debt, we also need to want a lot less of that.    A lot less White House running this country like we're a bunch of authoritarians in need of strongmen and dictators.  

Don't get me wrong, Trump's book in the "war on drugs" isn't written yet.   He may be better than Obama, at this point, who knows.   I lament that the "war on drugs" is the job of any President.   I posit that Presidents should find something else to do besides making soulless heartless gutless corporations have more (ANY) control over our lives, bodies and health, and not have to suffer govt thugs using physical force so that their control-wishes are granted.   

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15 hours ago, Yamato said:

Well said!   If i keep the "I am not talking about them, I am talking about us." context in mind.  

There's anti-Trump nonsense in the press every single day.   Don't think I can't see it and I'm getting sick of it fast.   Like I got sick of all the Hillary-mail.    It's getting close to the time where they either need to put it up or pack it in. 

Great post, sorry it took so long to get back to it, but it's pretty damn big!

Now , on to the arguments-

Quote

Relating to the OP, so far the Trump administration has shown some minor moves related to the "war on drugs".   Trump has repeatedly called for cheaper drugs (is that what the problem is?).   I hate this idea because this means more drugs.   It's like Ron Paul says "when you subsidize something, you get more of it."    I don't believe the drugs that are not-included in the "war on drugs" should be taken on their own merit, unless at extreme need which means exceptional cases.  I won't even buy my own drugs, why would I want to buy everyone else's?    On balance, it's like forcing me to hurt people.   Another troubling sign is Attorney General Jefferson Sessions.  A 3rd concern I have is the Executive Orders on crime that are largely correlative with the "war on drugs".   Immigration and the drugs coming up and down the southern border, particularly!

Cheaper drugs.... ?  I am seeing illegal Drugs and Bog Pharma as two very separate issues.

Are you saying that people are turning to illegal drugs because prescriptions are so damned expensive? Wow, I think a major dose of education is called for, if that is the case.

And maybe there is a link ; these opioids that Doctors are pushing have become THE biggest addiction problem in the USA today. However, like the problems caused by vaccines , it appears that we just ain't even supposed to speculate on that kind of problem. 

 

Quote

If I look at where all the cannons in the "war on drugs" are pointing, we're going to war on Mexican weed, particularly.   If I had 594 targets in a hypothetical total "war on drugs", Mexican weed would be close to #594.   We're not going to make America great again by getting rid of Mexican drugs.    Mexican drugs help keep American drugs more honest.

THe problem with that is, the Coyotes are changing so much that the illegal immigrants are being forced to double down on criminal behavior right off the bat by serving as Mules coming into the US. And once the cartels have made use of you once, how can you say no ... ever again?

 

Quote

What's it all for anyway, but the media's ratings?   Because the garden variety liberal democrat doesn't really want to impeach Trump anyway, Mike Pence is a real conservative, social at least.   To me, Mike Pence has no bearing on my views of impeachment.   Garden liberals are no threat to Trump.   Trump is the threat to Trump, plus the thin strands of people who actually oppose his rule.   Democrats don't really oppose Trump.   As this administration ages I think that'll become more and more clear.   I think the firebrands are going to come from conservatives, libertarians, constitutions, greens, reforms, etc.

I dunno, some of the kooks seem to think that impeaching Trump would make Hillary President. The way they go on about it, sure seems like that's what they are hoping for. 

Once again, Public Schools seem to have a lot to answer for.

However; I have also heard that after about 18 months, anyone you sent to Washington DC won't be the same person they were before. Maybe an old "been there, done that" character like Trump won't be so susceptible to that sort of thing, but I really think that if we want anything good out of him, it needs to happen sooner rather than hope for the best later on.

 

Quote

While big pharma's drugs aren't cheap enough, the drug cartels' drugs are "cheaper than candy bars."    Trump wants it both ways so this is price warfare, forcing some prices higher and others "lower".  This is central planners fixing prices using brute force.   If we want less debt, we also need to want a lot less of that.    A lot less White House running this country like we're a bunch of authoritarians in need of strongmen and dictators.  

True dat! ;)

But we have some real scumbags in Corporate America, it is as if they are daring us to call for Nationalization. And the real hell of it is; part of the definition of "Crony" Capitalist is that they are in the back-pocket of major Politicians... or maybe it's the other way around. 

IMHO - instead of mandating lower prices, all we have to do is open up the market, make it possible for their competition to undercut them and sell a cheaper & more streamlined product. 

Heh heh... that will really make them howl! 

But it will also do the trick w/o causing any shortages and more reams of regulation. All we have to do is cut the regulatory state off at the Knees, and let the power of human ingenuity bring us some real progress again.

Quote

Don't get me wrong, Trump's book in the "war on drugs" isn't written yet.   He may be better than Obama, at this point, who knows.   I lament that the "war on drugs" is the job of any President.   I posit that Presidents should find something else to do besides making soulless heartless gutless corporations have more (ANY) control over our lives, bodies and health, and not have to suffer govt thugs using physical force so that their control-wishes are granted.   

YES, it isn't his job, we have a vast Judicial apparatus for that. Time for them to earn their keep.

And, do you know how to tell who the real bad guys are? They are the ones that initiate the use of force. I don't care if they are Drug Pushers or Govt Agents, the one that shoots first is the one that is in the wrong.

 

Okay, we seem to have the beginnings of an accord here... how to proceed? 

 

EDIT- okay, just got around to seeing the clip in the OP from start to finish, and I see how the medical industry comes into it now.

Great minds think alike, eh?

But that monster Dookhan was distracting, 23 thousand false convictions?!? :blink:  I mean, gawd DAMN... I hope they make a mistake with HER case, and drop her in a men's prison for those 3 years. It wouldn't even come close, but it would be poetic. 

Edited by AnchorSteam
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On 5/26/2017 at 11:00 PM, Captain Risky said:

I don't think that the politicians want try hard enough. I really can't see whats so hard about identifying those that deal and dealing with them. 

If your name is Inc. and you make bazillions of dollars a year, you say jump, they say how high.  

There's a war of extermination against the natural world.   We might as well call it a Holocaust, or is that word still taken?    

If someone is "dealing" Kratom from Malaysia, Kat from Africa, "marijuana" from Mexico, can you or anyone else explain why fighting a war on that should be a national priority?    Are those the bad drugs?    Why is Afghani opium so great that we had to treat the Taliban very, very badly until they behaved according to our demands?   

Why is the war in Afghanistan the longest war in US history?   It's identifying those warlords that deal and dealing with them.    Assuming our politicians had the political will to try harder, you would even trust them with the job?

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27 minutes ago, Yamato said:

If your name is Inc. and you make bazillions of dollars a year, you say jump, they say how high.  

There's a war of extermination against the natural world.   We might as well call it a Holocaust, or is that word still taken?    

If someone is "dealing" Kratom from Malaysia, Kat from Africa, "marijuana" from Mexico, can you or anyone else explain why fighting a war on that should be a national priority?    Are those the bad drugs?    Why is Afghani opium so great that we had to treat the Taliban very, very badly until they behaved according to our demands?   

Why is the war in Afghanistan the longest war in US history?   It's identifying those warlords that deal and dealing with them.    Assuming our politicians had the political will to try harder, you would even trust them with the job?

Can't see why not. Yes I'm prolly naive but if we can conduct a proactive war on terrorism then theoretically we can have a war on drugs. A drone strike can take out a terrorist without the after thought of human rights or due process so why can't it do the same on some drug dealers or organised crime types.

 

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10 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

Can't see why not. Yes I'm prolly naive but if we can conduct a proactive war on terrorism then theoretically we can have a war on drugs. A drone strike can take out a terrorist without the after thought of human rights or due process so why can't it do the same on some drug dealers or organised crime types.

 

Because who the drug dealers are is based on arbitrary govt mandate that has precious little to do with social well being or individual health and everything to do with the Real Owners.   It has little to do with international law or common sense besides.    If the Taliban were still in charge in Afghanistan there would be far less opium being produced and exported.   It's like morphine central.  Tens of thousands of dead bodies go into the ground every year in this country thanks to prescription painkillers, if "dealing with" that gets excluded from any hypothetical "war on drugs" because the govt calls the shots by default?  Why it's no wonder the "war on drugs" hasn't solved anything in its lifetime!

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Prisons for profit, ya that won`t that won`t leed to corruption :wacko:

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Let's say that what's presented in this video is true and the war on drugs is strictly about prison and profits. That doesn't mean that tons of busts aren't based off of real drug trafficking. Are we supposed to legalize all drugs? I don't know the answers but I can't imagine legalizing hard narcotics in good conscious. We see the dangers in selling dangerous legal drugs in a controlled manner, prescription drugs. People still acquire them by illegal means and still ruin their lives with addiction. Think OxyContin. How would legalizing cocaine for instance prevent underground coke dealers, addicts and their antics along with all the seediness and potential violence that goes with the territory? Maybe the war on drugs ain't right but neither is that.

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To be honest... weed is okay for recreational and Oxycotin is use for pain. Over counter medication must be monitered and controlled, while weed is recreational at best and should have limits placed on usage like beer. Those are the only things I am okay with, as for the other drugs, they should be banned and removed. They are extremely harmful and have caused overdose... they are not FDA approved over the counter drugs, they are uncontrolled substances that has unknown cocktail of drugs in them. Certain things are okay and certain things are terrible. It is a real grey area that needs to be updated. For users of drugs, they shouldn't be thrown in prison, they should be introduced to institutions that will help them curb their usage and eliminate the needs. This would be a larger blow to the drug cartels than just arresting them and placing them in prisons. What is a product if it has no customers?

Edited by Uncle Sam
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On 5/26/2017 at 10:15 PM, Imaginarynumber1 said:

Yeah, the war in drugs has never had a basis in reality.

Good thing the new attorney General doesn't support it. Oh wait....

I think for many people they are focused on the wrong thing. It shouldn't be about whether or not a administration supports certain laws. All laws should be fully supported. Letting the government pick an choose what laws they will enforce could end up with some really bad situations. 

They need to cut the head off of the snake know as the war on drugs by repealing certain laws. 

Unfortunately that would take massive public support. There are just to many people making a fortune off this war. From police departments, to the prison to industry. With many in between. Like companies that sell alcohol etc etc. 

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