WVK Posted May 29, 2017 #1 Share Posted May 29, 2017 Mechanical Methods - Petrie's Comments "...the lathe appears to have been as familiar an instrument in the fourth dynasty, as it is in the modern workshops. The diorite bowls and vases of the Old Kingdom are frequently met with, and show great technical skill. One piece found at Gizeh, No 14, shows that the method employed was true turning, and not any process of grinding, since the bowl has been knocked off of its centring, recentred imperfectly, and the old turning not quite turned out; thus there are two surfaces belonging to different centrings, and meeting in a cusp. Such an appearance could not be produced by any grinding or rubbing process which pressed on the surface. Another detail is shown by fragment No 15; here the curves of the bowl are spherical, and must have therefore been cut by a tool sweeping an arc from a fixed centre while the bowl rotated. This centre or hinging of the tool was in the axis of the lathe for the general surface of the bowl, right up to the edge of it; but as a lip was wanted, the centring of the tool was shifted, but with exactly the same radius of its arc, and a fresh cut made to leave a lip to the bowl. That this was certainly not a chance result of hand-work is shown, not only by the exact circularity of the curves, and their equality, but also by the cusp left where they meet. This has not been at all rounded off, as would certainly be the case in hand-work, and it is clear proof of the rigidly mechanical method of striking the curves." [www.theglobaleducationproject.org] Wouldn't this be knowledge of the wheel? WVK 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaemwaset Posted May 29, 2017 #2 Share Posted May 29, 2017 The Old Kingdom vessels were sometimes made from exceptionally hard stone material, as well. The lathe tool itself would necessarily have been strong enough to drill/cut through such stone. The ancient Egyptians were wonderfully skilled at their stone workings, no doubt. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanslune Posted May 29, 2017 #3 Share Posted May 29, 2017 A thread started by WVK on the same subject earlier in May at the Hall of Ma'at has much of the needed information. http://www.hallofmaat.com/read.php?6,611654 This specific post appears to answer the wheel question http://www.hallofmaat.com/read.php?6,611654,611719#msg-611719 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WVK Posted May 29, 2017 Author #4 Share Posted May 29, 2017 57 minutes ago, Hanslune said: A thread started by WVK on the same subject earlier in May at the Hall of Ma'at has much of the needed information. http://www.hallofmaat.com/read.php?6,611654 This specific post appears to answer the wheel question http://www.hallofmaat.com/read.php?6,611654,611719#msg-611719 So no picture or word for lathe then no lathe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHaYap Posted May 29, 2017 #5 Share Posted May 29, 2017 Wheels and desert sands don't really go well together ... at least not until an equivalent of the Roman Highways up and down the land ... ~ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaemwaset Posted May 29, 2017 #6 Share Posted May 29, 2017 No problem with wheels in New Kingdom...see chariots, for example, both pictorial (many) and actual (Tutankhamun.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swede Posted May 29, 2017 #7 Share Posted May 29, 2017 3 hours ago, WVK said: So no picture or word for lathe then no lathe? A wholly illogical presumption: http://www.oocities.org/unforbidden_geology/ancient_egyptian_stone_vase_making.html . 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanslune Posted May 30, 2017 #8 Share Posted May 30, 2017 9 hours ago, third_eye said: Wheels and desert sands don't really go well together ... at least not until an equivalent of the Roman Highways up and down the land ... ~ Not when you have perfectly good river near by 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanslune Posted May 30, 2017 #9 Share Posted May 30, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, WVK said: So no picture or word for lathe then no lathe? Nope it means no picture or word for lathe - make of that what you will. As noted in the earlier thread - which might want to read it. As noted there Petrie may have simply been wrong. Edited May 30, 2017 by Hanslune 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Cox Posted May 30, 2017 #10 Share Posted May 30, 2017 11 hours ago, Khaemwaset said: No problem with wheels in New Kingdom...see chariots, for example, both pictorial (many) and actual (Tutankhamun.) No problem with my KTM 990 wheels and the desert either lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WVK Posted May 30, 2017 Author #11 Share Posted May 30, 2017 7 hours ago, Hanslune said: Nope it means no picture or word for lathe - make of that what you will. As noted in the earlier thread - which might want to read it. As noted there Petrie may have simply been wrong. Perhaps he was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanslune Posted May 30, 2017 #12 Share Posted May 30, 2017 1 hour ago, WVK said: Perhaps he was. It certainly is looking that way or for some period of time a AE genius created a 'lathe' used it for some time then the 'technology' was lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaemwaset Posted May 30, 2017 #13 Share Posted May 30, 2017 9 hours ago, Hanslune said: Nope it means no picture or word for lathe - make of that what you will. As noted in the earlier thread - which might want to read it. As noted there Petrie may have simply been wrong. Not a gripe but those links are not operational. I'll try and hunt them down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanslune Posted May 30, 2017 #14 Share Posted May 30, 2017 1 hour ago, Khaemwaset said: Not a gripe but those links are not operational. I'll try and hunt them down. It an image! My mistake and thanks for noting it. I didn't provide the link to original posting. Here it is: http://www.hallofmaat.com/read.php?6,611654,611753#msg-611753 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaemwaset Posted May 30, 2017 #15 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Hanslune: many thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarocal Posted May 30, 2017 #16 Share Posted May 30, 2017 6 hours ago, Hanslune said: It certainly is looking that way or for some period of time a AE genius created a 'lathe' used it for some time then the 'technology' was lost. I personally think if there were an Egyptian lathe, it more closely resembled a pottery wheel and the function would be more for burnishing or easily rotating the piece during chiseling. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harte Posted May 31, 2017 #17 Share Posted May 31, 2017 IIRC, after Petrie wrote that about a lathe, he talked to a few machinists about it and decided he was wrong. I don't know if he published anything like a retraction, but I did read that somewhere. Harte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WVK Posted May 31, 2017 Author #18 Share Posted May 31, 2017 22 hours ago, Hanslune said: It certainly is looking that way or for some period of time a AE genius created a 'lathe' used it for some time then the 'technology' was lost. Seems pyramid building technology was gradually lost as well during the 4th dynasty from GP to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mastaba-faraoun-3.jpg 5th Dynasty pyramids are now piles of rubble https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Dynasty_of_Egypt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanslune Posted May 31, 2017 #19 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Yep perhaps not lost but they went cheap. I suspect Giza absorbed a whole lot of expertise and resources and later leaders decided to create smaller and cheaper versions using cut corner methods. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaemwaset Posted May 31, 2017 #20 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Pyramid tech. may have declined after the fourth dynasty, but not advanced stone working otherwise. Here's a 6th Dynasty vessel inscribed with Teti's name: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WVK Posted May 31, 2017 Author #21 Share Posted May 31, 2017 23 hours ago, Hanslune said: It certainly is looking that way or for some period of time a AE genius created a 'lathe' used it for some time then the 'technology' was lost. I think it's possible that they had tools for which documentation has not been found. For example stone coring tools: http://www.oocities.org/unforbidden_geology/ancient_egyptian_copper_coring_drills.html Is that what they used to hollow out these? https://farm1.static.flickr.com/552/18630730900_d83587b0e5_b.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaemwaset Posted May 31, 2017 #22 Share Posted May 31, 2017 (edited) And there's this old kingdom piece, which may remind us of another, more extremely formed, version: this: of course this one's famously curious, and is not really perfectly round at its outer circumference. Edited May 31, 2017 by Khaemwaset 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoma Posted May 31, 2017 #23 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Drilled shell beads have been dated to 41,000–35,000 years old, so it's not a far stretch to assume that drilling / grinding of materials was known to humanity very early on What the Egyptians managed was impressive, though 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHaYap Posted May 31, 2017 #24 Share Posted May 31, 2017 On 5/30/2017 at 0:33 PM, Hanslune said: Not when you have perfectly good river near by Yeah ... that too ... Not too sure but I remember reading somewhere that the stretch of the Nile near GIza were off limits to the general populace ... ? ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swede Posted June 1, 2017 #25 Share Posted June 1, 2017 8 hours ago, WVK said: I think it's possible that they had tools for which documentation has not been found. For example stone coring tools: http://www.oocities.org/unforbidden_geology/ancient_egyptian_copper_coring_drills.html Is that what they used to hollow out these? https://farm1.static.flickr.com/552/18630730900_d83587b0e5_b.jpg Those unfamiliar with lithic technologies not uncommonly view the various processes as a matter of singular tooling. This is most assuredly not the case. Even the production of a "basic" projectile point involves a number of selective tools and the considered applications of such. Photographic evidence of internal coring scars associated with sarcophagi are available. A serious search would inform you in this regard. As alluded to in the immediately above, the "bulk" coring material removal was but one stage of a more extensive process. A hopefully informative primer: https://www.penn.museum/documents/publications/expedition/PDFs/25-3/Ancient.pdf . 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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