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Revelation's " Woman in labor "


Onoma

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The " Woman in labor " is based on the classic procedural text called

" Incantation for a woman in labor "

 

The terms

" wearing a crown of stars "

" crowned by a rainbow " ( Sign of the covenant )

" clothed with the sun "

" clothed with the moon "

are all classical terminologies from Babylonian omen texts

" John of Patmos " ( whether real or not ) was said to have been exiled to Patmos to write Revelation

Being exiled in those days was a common punishment for " magic or astrology ", both of which would be knowing classic omen / procedural texts that were once the knowledge of the " High Priest ", of which, " John " was apparently schooled in

Would anybody like to discuss this ?

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Never gave it much thought. However  many catholics think the woman in labor is the Virgin Mary who is sometimes shown with twelve stars around her head. And  in paintings of Our Lady of Grace, she is seen with her foot on a  snake which represents Satan. This relates also to Revelations.Satan or the dragon chasing her refers to the Devil trying to stop Jesus from  coming  for it is by His death and resurrection we are saved.. Have to read more on it,but you might want to check out a few catholic websites  on the subject.

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There's a pastor out of Vegas who specializes in prophecy, his name is Billy Crone. His series on the events of Revelation is great, check it out if you're interested. Very entertaining guy, backs up much of his message with Biblical and secular facts.

Various playlists (one on the UFO phenomenon):

https://www.youtube.com/user/NFBCmedia/playlists

Edited by WoIverine
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Ever hear of " bit meseri " ?

Means " house of confinement ", something that an apkallu priest would be in, like the High Priest of Sin, the moon god

From the High Priest Sin-leqi-unninni's 1st person telling of the Gilgamesh epic, ( with himself as Gilgamesh ) and the use of Gilgamesh's use of specific notations used only for mathematical astronomy, we see the use of the principle Sumerian fractions 1/3 and 2/3, which form the partial basis of their system of Mathematical astronmy, and also the ratio of the seventh High Priest ( apkallu ), of which Sin-leqi-unninni is 1/3 human and 2/3 god

It's the basis of the Jewish " karet " ( being cut off from ), a duty of the High Priest, who's knowledge was based on mathematical astronomy of the Sumerians

The following is from the book " Babylonian Planetary Omens: without special title "

 

 

venus.png

 

Rev 12:1 

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

 

There is also the translations associated with Venus ( From Wikipedia )

The word is traditionally (following LXX) left untranslated (ABC, ACV, AKJ, ASV, BBE, BIB, ESV, GNV, HNV, JPS, K21, KJG, KJR, KJV, NAB, NKJ, NRS, NWT, RSV, RWB, TMB, TNK, UPD, WEB, YLT, LXE, ZIK), but some modern English Bible translations render it as "zodiac" (AMP, CJB, EMP, LEE); others have "constellations" (CJB, CSB, DBY, NET, ERV, GWN, LEE, LIT, MKJ, NAS, NAU, NIB, NIV, TNV, WEV) or "stars" (CEV, NCB, NIR, NLV, TEV).

But as the Latin Vulgate renders the word as "luciferum", there are alternative English translations as "morning star" (CVB, TRC, also Luther's 1545 German translation, as Morgenstern); "day star" (DRA); "Venus" (MSG); "Crown season" (NJB); "sequence of seasons" (NLT); "Lucifer, 'that is, dai sterre (day star)" (Wycliffe's Bible). WES[clarification needed] gives "stars in the southern signs".

Translators' Notes given in individual translations are:

Geneva: Certain stars so called, some think they were the twelve signs.

KJV/KGB: {Mazzaroth: or, the twelve signs}

NAS/NAU: perh. "a constellation"

NET: The word מַּזָּלֹות; (mazzarot) is taken by some to refer to the constellations (see 2 Kings 23:5), and by others as connected to the word for "crown," and so "corona."

NIB/NIV: {32 Or the morning star in its season}

 

I'n my opinion that shows the relation to the use of the dingir ( star, crown ( of tree ) etc as the determinant in Akkadian, for signifying a deified king who had undergone the sacred wedding ceremony to become married to the god he represented 

It's the determinant for all deified Mesopotamian kings, but also the symbol used in Mesopotamian texts dealing with mathematical astronomy that " John " would have been schooled in 

Here is the link to the translation of " Incantation for a woman in labor ", if anybody wants to read it, ask questions, etc

CCP 4.2.A.a - Therapeutic (én munus ù-tu-ud-da-a-ni) A

Edited by Onoma
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1And a great sign appeared in heaven: a womanclothed in the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 

The woman is Israel, the stars are her 12 tribes and the moon under her feet could be representative of her victory over her enemy, Islam. The male child is Jesus.

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Naturally, given the tricky language in Mesopotamian texts, the term " being crowned " or " wearing a crown " can also refer to the eclipse

Usually the meaning is derived from the fact that " god " ( planet / star / moon ) has usurped the other god's " throne " by passing in front of it ( an eclipse )

 

 

 

 

 

 

moon.png

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6 hours ago, WoIverine said:

Any ideas as to the identity of the whore of Babylon?

I believe that the only nation that fits the description today is the U.S.  In the future, who knows?  The only part of the description that doesn't seem to fit is the statement about "killing the prophets of God".  

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19 hours ago, WoIverine said:

Any ideas as to the identity of the whore of Babylon?

yes

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2 hours ago, Onoma said:

yes

Well that was easy brief and to the point :lol:. Welcome to UM is that yes or yes and....(some descriptive construct here):D

jmccr8

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On 2017-6-3 at 6:13 AM, Onoma said:

Ever hear of " bit meseri " ?

Means " house of confinement ", something that an apkallu priest would be in, like the High Priest of Sin, the moon god

From the High Priest Sin-leqi-unninni's 1st person telling of the Gilgamesh epic, ( with himself as Gilgamesh ) and the use of Gilgamesh's use of specific notations used only for mathematical astronomy, we see the use of the principle Sumerian fractions 1/3 and 2/3, which form the partial basis of their system of Mathematical astronmy, and also the ratio of the seventh High Priest ( apkallu ), of which Sin-leqi-unninni is 1/3 human and 2/3 god

It's the basis of the Jewish " karet " ( being cut off from ), a duty of the High Priest, who's knowledge was based on mathematical astronomy of the Sumerians

The following is from the book " Babylonian Planetary Omens: without special title "

 

 

venus.png

 

Rev 12:1 

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

 

There is also the translations associated with Venus ( From Wikipedia )

The word is traditionally (following LXX) left untranslated (ABC, ACV, AKJ, ASV, BBE, BIB, ESV, GNV, HNV, JPS, K21, KJG, KJR, KJV, NAB, NKJ, NRS, NWT, RSV, RWB, TMB, TNK, UPD, WEB, YLT, LXE, ZIK), but some modern English Bible translations render it as "zodiac" (AMP, CJB, EMP, LEE); others have "constellations" (CJB, CSB, DBY, NET, ERV, GWN, LEE, LIT, MKJ, NAS, NAU, NIB, NIV, TNV, WEV) or "stars" (CEV, NCB, NIR, NLV, TEV).

But as the Latin Vulgate renders the word as "luciferum", there are alternative English translations as "morning star" (CVB, TRC, also Luther's 1545 German translation, as Morgenstern); "day star" (DRA); "Venus" (MSG); "Crown season" (NJB); "sequence of seasons" (NLT); "Lucifer, 'that is, dai sterre (day star)" (Wycliffe's Bible). WES[clarification needed] gives "stars in the southern signs".

Translators' Notes given in individual translations are:

Geneva: Certain stars so called, some think they were the twelve signs.

KJV/KGB: {Mazzaroth: or, the twelve signs}

NAS/NAU: perh. "a constellation"

NET: The word מַּזָּלֹות; (mazzarot) is taken by some to refer to the constellations (see 2 Kings 23:5), and by others as connected to the word for "crown," and so "corona."

NIB/NIV: {32 Or the morning star in its season}

 

I'n my opinion that shows the relation to the use of the dingir ( star, crown ( of tree ) etc as the determinant in Akkadian, for signifying a deified king who had undergone the sacred wedding ceremony to become married to the god he represented 

It's the determinant for all deified Mesopotamian kings, but also the symbol used in Mesopotamian texts dealing with mathematical astronomy that " John " would have been schooled in 

Here is the link to the translation of " Incantation for a woman in labor ", if anybody wants to read it, ask questions, etc

CCP 4.2.A.a - Therapeutic (én munus ù-tu-ud-da-a-ni) A

 There is a lot of babylonian and egyptian theology in the OT probably picked up during the jews captivity in both places The jews both adopted and adapted some of the concepts but evolved a particular monotheistic national god. to overlay it all.  

Revelations is a book deliberately written to end the bible and to tie it back to the beginning of the story in the OT and to Daniel in particular  Thus, although many of the symbols do have specific christian interpretations,  they can ALSO be linked to babylonian and egyptian ideas. MANy indeed are quite universal early  symbols and concepts. Any classically  educated man of the time would have been aware to some degree of these symbolic interpretations. 

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On 6/3/2017 at 8:48 AM, WoIverine said:

Any ideas as to the identity of the whore of Babylon?

Marjorie Cameron    

 

Image result for Marjorie Cameron

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I thought this was going to be about biblical attitudes towards women giving birth?!   My bad! :o

I think it was probably a good thing for me not to have read the Bible growing up.  The symbolism would have killed me.   ;)

 

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On ‎02‎-‎06‎-‎2017 at 8:01 PM, Onoma said:

The " Woman in labor " is based on the classic procedural text called

" Incantation for a woman in labor "

 

The terms

" wearing a crown of stars "

" crowned by a rainbow " ( Sign of the covenant )

" clothed with the sun "

" clothed with the moon "

are all classical terminologies from Babylonian omen texts

" John of Patmos " ( whether real or not ) was said to have been exiled to Patmos to write Revelation

Being exiled in those days was a common punishment for " magic or astrology ", both of which would be knowing classic omen / procedural texts that were once the knowledge of the " High Priest ", of which, " John " was apparently schooled in

Would anybody like to discuss this ?

I have a different view to yours. These are not actually references to Babylonian omen texts, although the imagery would be quite similar because they are based on astronomical observations which were shared throughout the ANE context. The ancient world was much more attentive to the heavens and the imagery they elicited from the motions of the planets, stars, sun and moon. The modern horoscope is a pale reflection of those times and it had nothing to do with astrology as we now see it.

Revelation 12:1-6

The Woman and the Dragon

1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. 5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.

The biblical text above is actually astronomical in nature. It is a direct reference to Jesus birth date.

The woman is Israel, she is clothed with the sun, a reference to Israel who is  represented as the bearer of divine, supernatural light (Isaiah 49:6 I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.) The moon represents submission of the natural order, of human belief systems and religious and philosophical thoughts. She is not standing on the moon as if in triumph, she is merely above it representing authority. This goes back to the initial imagery of Israel being the light for the gentiles.

The woman is crowned with a specific number of stars. 12 stars which is clear biblical imagery of the 12 tribes of Israel in Benjamin's dream. (Genesis 37:9-10 behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.)

She gives birth to a male child (Jesus), which is a reference to the Prophecy of the seed of promise. (Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel.) The child would rule the nations with a rod of Iron, a clear reference to the Messiah who will rule the world (Daniel 7:13-14, Psalm 2:9). The child being caught up to God and his throne is a reference to Jesus crucifixion, death, resurrection and ascension.

The woman fleeing into the wilderness is has not yet occurred. It is a prophecy yet to be fulfilled

Yet the entire point of this imagery is merely to direct peoples attention to an astronomical event which occurred on the 11th of September, 3 B.C.E

By using  archaeoastronomy we find that this imagery was once reflected in the sky by the stars on that specific day. It also happened to be the 1st of Tishri, the Jewish New Year, also known as Rosh Hoshana. It is the first of the High Holy Days or Yamim Nora'im (Days of Awe) which usually occur in the early autumn of the Northern Hemisphere. The day is believed to be the anniversary of the creation of Adam and Eve, the first man and woman, and their first actions toward the realization of mankind’s role in God's world. Rosh Hashanah customs include sounding the shofar, which is why it is also called the day of Trumpets.

star-of-bethlehem.jpg

So, what is so special about this day, that it stands out in the bible?

It is the birthday of Jesus Christ.

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6 hours ago, Jor-el said:

I have a different view to yours. These are not actually references to Babylonian omen texts, although the imagery would be quite similar because they are based on astronomical observations which were shared throughout the ANE context. The ancient world was much more attentive to the heavens and the imagery they elicited from the motions of the planets, stars, sun and moon. The modern horoscope is a pale reflection of those times and it had nothing to do with astrology as we now see it.

Revelation 12:1-6

The Woman and the Dragon

1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. 5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.

The biblical text above is actually astronomical in nature. It is a direct reference to Jesus birth date.

The woman is Israel, she is clothed with the sun, a reference to Israel who is  represented as the bearer of divine, supernatural light (Isaiah 49:6 I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.) The moon represents submission of the natural order, of human belief systems and religious and philosophical thoughts. She is not standing on the moon as if in triumph, she is merely above it representing authority. This goes back to the initial imagery of Israel being the light for the gentiles.

The woman is crowned with a specific number of stars. 12 stars which is clear biblical imagery of the 12 tribes of Israel in Benjamin's dream. (Genesis 37:9-10 behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.)

She gives birth to a male child (Jesus), which is a reference to the Prophecy of the seed of promise. (Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel.) The child would rule the nations with a rod of Iron, a clear reference to the Messiah who will rule the world (Daniel 7:13-14, Psalm 2:9). The child being caught up to God and his throne is a reference to Jesus crucifixion, death, resurrection and ascension.

The woman fleeing into the wilderness is has not yet occurred. It is a prophecy yet to be fulfilled

Yet the entire point of this imagery is merely to direct peoples attention to an astronomical event which occurred on the 11th of September, 3 B.C.E

By using  archaeoastronomy we find that this imagery was once reflected in the sky by the stars on that specific day. It also happened to be the 1st of Tishri, the Jewish New Year, also known as Rosh Hoshana. It is the first of the High Holy Days or Yamim Nora'im (Days of Awe) which usually occur in the early autumn of the Northern Hemisphere. The day is believed to be the anniversary of the creation of Adam and Eve, the first man and woman, and their first actions toward the realization of mankind’s role in God's world. Rosh Hashanah customs include sounding the shofar, which is why it is also called the day of Trumpets.

star-of-bethlehem.jpg

So, what is so special about this day, that it stands out in the bible?

 

 

It was  a special day because you could see the constellations and Jupiter when the Sun was up and it was daytime  .   And the Moon was  visible next to  the Sun ...  

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46 minutes ago, back to earth said:

 

It was  a special day because you could see the constellations and Jupiter when the Sun was up and it was daytime  .   And the Moon was  visible next to  the Sun ...  

Well could I ask for clarification there?

 Because to me that would be a common occurrence. This one, not so much, It has only happened once after this, in 2011, but I could be wrong about that. Anybody alive then would have taken great meaning from this occurrence. In fact these manifestations or signs brought the magi in search of the Messiah.

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And how did these Magi  know  the location of  the birth   from such an alignment  ? 

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On 6/3/2017 at 1:29 AM, and then said:

I believe that the only nation that fits the description today is the U.S.  In the future, who knows?  The only part of the description that doesn't seem to fit is the statement about "killing the prophets of God".  

Yeah, it seems like it. Defiler of the whole world and such, with the US being the modern equivalent of Babylon. Babylon has a very unfortunate ending in the text.

Edited by WoIverine
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2 minutes ago, WoIverine said:

Yeah, it seems like it. Defiler of the whole world and such, with the US being modern equivalent of Babylon.

I'm no scholar, far from it, but the great majority of the description fits us to a "T".  It would also explain why no mention is made of a country with the attributes of the U.S. during the last days.  Maybe He DID mention us, He just called us by a different name :no:

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28 minutes ago, and then said:

I'm no scholar, far from it, but the great majority of the description fits us to a "T".  It would also explain why no mention is made of a country with the attributes of the U.S. during the last days.  Maybe He DID mention us, He just called us by a different name :no:

Why would the US be sufficiently important to be mentioned?

Why not Brazil or Canada or Mexico?

 

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2 hours ago, back to earth said:

And how did these Magi  know  the location of  the birth from such an alignment? 

Because that wasn't the only thing going on in the night sky at that time.

This involves some lengthy explanations on a number of subjects, which form the core group of signs and accompanying information that can place the date into its proper setting.

Basically there are 3 parts to the context.

1. Astronomy

2. History

3. The biblical record

Regarding the 1st part, I have already provided one part of the information that is found in Revelation. It is essentially the key that unlocks the rest of the context. There is more though. At the same time that this solar lunar conjunction with Virgo is happening, there are two other occurences, which allow us to place the date with confidence.

Above Virgo, there is another constellation, we call it Leo which is as we know associated with the title The lion of Judah. Most people ignore the fact that the ancient Israelites were keen followers of the stars and the astrology of that time. They did not adhere to the astrology as we know it today, which is total BS, buty those symbols in the night sky had great meaning to them. Each and every Israelite tribe had a sign that symbolized their tribe, and they used the 12 great constellations that are today known as the astrological signs:

Reuben, 'boiling over with water,' is Aquarius

Simeon and Levi, 'the brethren,' are Gemini, the Twins

Judah,'the lion's whelp,' is Leo, the Lion

Zebulon, 'who shall dwell at the beach of the sea,' is Pisces, the Fish

Issachar, 'a gelded donkey lying down in the cattle pens (REB)' is Taurus (the Bull)

Dan, 'a serpent in the way,' is Scorpio (the Scorpion)

Gad, 'a troop shall press upon him; but he shall press upon their heel,' is Aries (the Ram).

Asher, 'the weigher of bread,' is Libra, the Scales

Nephtali, 'a hind let loose,' is Capricorn, the Goat

Joseph, 'whose bow abides in strength,' is Sagittarius, the Archer

Benjamin, 'ravening as a wolf, devouring his prey by morning, dividing the spoil at night,' is Cancer, the Crab

The beginning of these events was in September 14th, 3 B.C. On this date the following happened...

jupiter-in-leo-3bc-sept-13.png

Jupiter had a conjunction with the star Regulus, which belongs to the constellation of Leo. Jupiter, known as the "King Planet" at that time as well as today, came to occupy a position of extreme proximity to to Regulus known as the "King Star". Regulus has always had a connection to Royalty and Kingship.

As the brightest star in Leo, Regulus has been almost universally associated in ancient cultures with the concept of royal or kingly power. The name Regulus actually comes from the Latin rex, or king. The star was known in Arabia as Malikiyy, the Kingly One; in Greece as the "Star of the King"; in ancient Babylon, as Sharru or the King; to the even more ancient Akkadians of Mesopotamia it represented Amil-gal-ur, the legendary King of the Celestial Sphere who ruled before the great flood.

The constellation of Leo has a number of interesting characteristics, 1st it is biblically the constellation of the tribe of Judah. Each tribe had its own symbol and each symbol is reflected in a constelletation. Leo, was Judahs Symbol. Furthermore, Regulus itself has always been connected biblically to the Messiah.

Genesis 49:10

10 The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet,

until he to whom it belongs shall come and the obedience of the nations shall be his.

What most people fail to realize is that this verse is actually connecting the Messiah to Regulus, the King star between Leos paws. 

Source

Now, conjunctions are relatively frequent, what is not frequent is a triple conjunction between a fixed star and a planet. In this case, Jupiter had a conjunction with Regulus on September the 14, 3 B.C.

It then moved away and came back due to retrograde motion and visited Regulus again on February 17th, 2 B.C and did this a 3rd time on May 8th to the 9th, 2 B.C. Yet things did not stop there.

After the planet’s three separate conjunctions with Regulus, Jupiter then continued its westward journey (as observers would have viewed it on earth). On June 17, 2 B.C. it had a spectacularly rare reunion with Venus. The two planets were then a mere .01 degrees from one another and they would have appeared to people on earth like a single “double-star” which only the sharpest eyes would have been able to separate. To people it would have looked like a single star that had the combined brightness of both Venus and Juptiter, the two brightest objects in the sky.

As a matter of fact it was sufficiently bright to be visible even during the day and all still within the constellation of Leo. I would draw your attention that the Magi who would have taken predawn readings of the stars, would have seen these events happeneing in the West. It is they who came from the East, from Babylon.

The the iconic image of the Star of Bethlehem that everyone percieves in their minds, and its origin was here on this day of June 17th 2 B.C. Yet it is only a part of the whole story. It is this planetary conjunction between Venus (The Mother Planet) and Jupiter (The King Planet) in the region of Regulus (The King Star) in the constellation of Leo (The tribe of Judah) that inspired the Magi to start on their Journey in an Westerly drection.

Here is an interesting article on the Magi and who and what they were... 

Link

Now many ask why others, like king Herod didn't see this amazing star of Bethlehem?

The King did not notice anything until the Magi arrived because he was not a Magi and his astrologers were not Magi either, and they would not have seen the meaning of the events as reflected in the teachings and training the Magi recieved. As I said, an unusual event like a comet or any other surprising celestial event like a giant star would certainly have gotten everyones attention, if Herod wasn't aware of this, then it wasn't something completely out of the ordinary.

Now for the 3rd part of this phenomenon we call the star of bethlehem.

If the Magi had left soon after witnessing the conjunction that created the brightest star in the heavens for a few days in the East, they would have had to travel 1,287 Km (800 miles). They could have done this in 32 days if they had travelled an average distance of 40 km per day (25 miles). Since they were simply travelling westward and didn't have a clear destination they probably took a little longer. We know from Matthew 2:2 that when they arrived Jesus was no longer a baby infant but a child, and was living in Bethlehem, in a house (not a stable or a cave).

Therefore if they arrived sometime in November or December of 2 B.C., Jesus would have been around 1 year and 3 months old by this time.

Finally, if the Magi in Jerusalem, following Jupiter (The King Planet at is rising) had taken a view of that "star" at their normal time (predawn) they would have seen the star stop. Jupiter would have stopped due to retrograde motion and would seem to hang in the sky for a day or 2 before starting to move again.

Now guess what day it was that Jupiter "stopped in the heavens"? 25 December 2 B.C.

And from their position in Jerusalem, Jupiter would be due south of them exactly where Bethlehem was.

Edited by Jor-el
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39 minutes ago, Jor-el said:

Because that wasn't the only thing going on in the night sky at that time.

This involves some lengthy explanations on a number of subjects, which form the core group of signs and accompanying information that can place the date into its proper setting.

yes but I asked about the location not the timing .... I guess now  we get all the info on the timing again ? 

39 minutes ago, Jor-el said:

Basically there are 3 parts to the context.

1. Astronomy

2. History

3. The biblical record

Regarding the 1st part, I have already provided one part of the information that is found in Revelation. It is essentially the key that unlocks the rest of the context. There is more though. At the same time that this solar lunar conjunction with Virgo is happening, there are two other occurences, which allow us to place the date with confidence.

Above Virgo, there is another constellation, we call it Leo which is as we know associated with the title The lion of Judah. Most people ignore the fact that the ancient Israelites were keen followers of the stars and the astrology of that time. They did not adhere to the astrology as we know it today, which is total BS, buty those symbols in the night sky had great meaning to them. Each and every Israelite tribe had a sign that symbolized their tribe, and they used the 12 great constellations that are today known as the astrological signs:  

Reuben, 'boiling over with water,' is Aquarius

Simeon and Levi, 'the brethren,' are Gemini, the Twins

Judah,'the lion's whelp,' is Leo, the Lion

Zebulon, 'who shall dwell at the beach of the sea,' is Pisces, the Fish

Issachar, 'a gelded donkey lying down in the cattle pens (REB)' is Taurus (the Bull)

Dan, 'a serpent in the way,' is Scorpio (the Scorpion)

Gad, 'a troop shall press upon him; but he shall press upon their heel,' is Aries (the Ram).

Asher, 'the weigher of bread,' is Libra, the Scales

Nephtali, 'a hind let loose,' is Capricorn, the Goat

Joseph, 'whose bow abides in strength,' is Sagittarius, the Archer

Benjamin, 'ravening as a wolf, devouring his prey by morning, dividing the spoil at night,' is Cancer, the Crab

 yes, I know the Hebrew names for the  constellational zodiac.  Putting all this info here does not answer the question though ... and anyone that would write this ;   " the 12 great constellations that are today known as the astrological signs:  "  would seem unfamiliar with the intricacies  of astrology and astronomy, archaic and  modern , which is a prerequisite to any   archaeoastronomy. 

I know the theory and details ,  I have seen the youtubes and read the descriptions , none of it offers a reasonable explanation re location. 

 

39 minutes ago, Jor-el said:

The beginning of these events was in September 14th, 3 B.C. On this date the following happened...

jupiter-in-leo-3bc-sept-13.png

Jupiter had a conjunction with the star Regulus, which belongs to the constellation of Leo. Jupiter, known as the "King Planet" at that time as well as today, came to occupy a position of extreme proximity to to Regulus known as the "King Star". Regulus has always had a connection to Royalty and Kingship.

As the brightest star in Leo, Regulus has been almost universally associated in ancient cultures with the concept of royal or kingly power. The name Regulus actually comes from the Latin rex, or king. The star was known in Arabia as Malikiyy, the Kingly One; in Greece as the "Star of the King"; in ancient Babylon, as Sharru or the King; to the even more ancient Akkadians of Mesopotamia it represented Amil-gal-ur, the legendary King of the Celestial Sphere who ruled before the great flood.

The constellation of Leo has a number of interesting characteristics, 1st it is biblically the constellation of the tribe of Judah. Each tribe had its own symbol and each symbol is reflected in a constelletation. Leo, was Judahs Symbol. Furthermore, Regulus itself has always been connected biblically to the Messiah.

It may , yet you only listed characteristics that all the other  zodiacal  asterisms have, unless you see Judah as having the significance and then 'lending that in reverse'  to  Leo . 

39 minutes ago, Jor-el said:

Genesis 49:10

10 The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet,

until he to whom it belongs shall come and the obedience of the nations shall be his.

What most people fail to realize is that this verse is actually connecting the Messiah to Regulus, the King star between Leos paws. ;)

Source

Now, conjunctions are relatively frequent, what is not frequent is a triple conjunction between a fixed star and a planet. In this case, Jupiter had a conjunction with Regulus on September the 14, 3 B.C.

It then moved away and came back due to retrograde motion and visited Regulus again on February 17th, 2 B.C and did this a 3rd time on May 8th to the 9th, 2 B.C. Yet things did not stop there.

Any  planetary conjunctions  with any  fixed star that include retrograde motion of the planet   has  to happen   3 times .    Think about it .  

39 minutes ago, Jor-el said:

After the planet’s three separate conjunctions with Regulus, Jupiter then continued its westward journey (as observers would have viewed it on earth). On June 17, 2 B.C. it had a spectacularly rare reunion with Venus. The two planets were then a mere .01 degrees from one another and they would have appeared to people on earth like a single “double-star” which only the sharpest eyes would have been able to separate. To people it would have looked like a single star that had the combined brightness of both Venus and Juptiter, the two brightest objects in the sky.  

As a matter of fact it was sufficiently bright to be visible even during the day  and all still within the constellation of Leo. I would draw your attention that the Magi who would have taken predawn readings of the stars, would have seen these events happeneing in the West. It is they who came from the East, from Babylon.

The the iconic image of the Star of Bethlehem that everyone percieves in their minds, and its origin was here on this day of June 17th 2 B.C. Yet it is only a part of the whole story. It is this planetary conjunction between Venus (The Mother Planet) and Jupiter (The King Planet) in the region of Regulus (The King Star) in the constellation of Leo (The tribe of Judah) that inspired the Magi to start on their Journey in an Easterly drection.

Why ,   what is the evidence that this gave location ....    heading off in a general direction anyway .   In any case  they would have known that a  few hours later the 'star' would have been towards the north and later it would be setting . 

39 minutes ago, Jor-el said:

Here is an interesting article on the Magi and who and what they were... 

Link

Now many ask why others, like king Herod didn't see this amazing star of Bethlehem?

The King did not notice anything until the Magi arrived because he was not a Magi and his astrologers were not Magi either,

yet above you noted ;  "  

which only the sharpest eyes would have been able to separate. To people it would have looked like a single star that had the combined brightness of both Venus and Juptiter, the two brightest objects in the sky.  

As a matter of fact it was sufficiently bright to be visible even during the day "

The king or his astrologers did not notice a new star visible in the day time ?  Because they were not astrologers like the Magi ?  Come on now  . 

39 minutes ago, Jor-el said:

and they would not have seen the meaning of the events as reflected in the teachings and training the Magi recieved.

Are you suggesting the Magi were trained in 'Bible'  scripture and the local astrologers were not ?    Remember your point  3 above ^

39 minutes ago, Jor-el said:

 

As I said, an unusual event like a comet or any other surprising celestial event like a giant star would certainly have gotten everyones attention, if Herod wasn't aware of this, then it wasn't something completely out of the ordinary.

Yet, above,  you make it is something out of the ordinary .  

39 minutes ago, Jor-el said:

Now for the 3rd part of this phenomenon we call the star of bethlehem.

If the Magi had left soon after witnessing the conjunction that created the brightest star in the heavens for a few days in the East, they would have had to travel 1,287 Km (800 miles). They could have done this in 32 days if they had travelled an average distance of 40 km per day (25 miles). Since they were simply travelling westward and didn't have a clear destination they probably took a little longer. We know from Matthew 2:2 that when they arrived Jesus was no longer a baby infant but a child, and was living in Bethlehem, in a house (not a stable or a cave).

yes it was a house and they found it by  "  After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was  "

Does not sound like some 'conjunction'  that gave a general direction does it ?   What is the ref for the age of  Jesus and what is the difference in age between infant and child ?  

39 minutes ago, Jor-el said:

Therefore if they arrived sometime in November or December of 2 B.C., Jesus would have been around 1 year and 3 months old by this time.

Finally, if the Magi in Jerusalem, following Jupiter (The King Planet at is rising) had taken a view of that "star" at their normal time (predawn) they would have seen the star stop. Jupiter would have stopped due to retrograde motion and would seem to hang in the sky for a day or 2 before starting to move again.

How did they 'follow Jupiter'   when it was stopped in the sky, but the earth was still rotating causing the heavens to seemingly revolve and  Jupiter to move with them .

Do you even understand how a retrograde works or what a 'still point' is ?  In any case, the Bible says the star moved and stopped over where the child was . 

This remindes me of an old army comedy routine where someone calls in their position ;  " There is a very bright star overhead and I am directly under that . " 

39 minutes ago, Jor-el said:

Now guess what day it was that Jupiter "stopped in the heavens"? 25 December 2 B.C.

And from their position in Jerusalem, Jupiter would be due south of them exactly where Bethlehem was.

 Even though JUpiter and the heavens were moving across the sky at the regular rate ?     

 

Archaeoastronomy is a little more detailed than one can pick up from watching youtubes .

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18 hours ago, Jor-el said:

Why would the US be sufficiently important to be mentioned?

Why not Brazil or Canada or Mexico?

 

Because the influence of Canada, Mexico, and Brazil combined can't even begin to shine a light on how much global influence America has had historically and contemporarily, especially now with its current special president.

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22 hours ago, back to earth said:

yes but I asked about the location not the timing .... I guess now  we get all the info on the timing again ? 

What about location, it seems straightforward, it ain't rocket science. They followed a star toward the west. From Babylon due west gets you to Jerusalem. Like I said it ain't rocket science.

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yes, I know the Hebrew names for the  constellational zodiac.  Putting all this info here does not answer the question though ... and anyone that would write this ;   " the 12 great constellations that are today known as the astrological signs:" would seem unfamiliar with the intricacies  of astrology and astronomy, archaic and  modern , which is a prerequisite to any archaeoastronomy. 

Actually they would, since one should always take for granted that others do not know the first thing about the subject until they demonstrate the opposite.

Quote

I know the theory and details ,  I have seen the youtubes and read the descriptions , none of it offers a reasonable explanation re location. 

Well then you'll have to spell out your problem in detail because to me it seems self evident, like 1+1=2.

Quote

It may , yet you only listed characteristics that all the other  zodiacal  asterisms have, unless you see Judah as having the significance and then 'lending that in reverse'  to  Leo .

Actually no. The bible is the one that generally attributes the imagery being used here. The constellations of each tribe are on record. They are simply called the Mazzaroth. Judah for example is constantly referred to the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. They are inextricably linked. That the present day astrological houses share the same imagery is natural, since they are a perversion of the mazzaroth, a mere shadow of what the movement of the stars and planets meant to the ancients. To many the gospel is clearly written in the mazzaroth.

 Genesis 49:9-10

"Judah is a lion's whelp; From the prey, my son, you have gone up He couches, he lies down as a lion, And as a lion, who dares rouse him up? "The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes, And to him shall be the obedience of the peoples.

Quote

Any  planetary conjunctions  with any  fixed star that include retrograde motion of the planet   has  to happen   3 times .    Think about it .  

Actually no it doesn't, You have singular conjunctions and double conjunctions as well and it also depends on the planet itself. See: https://snofriacus.wordpress.com/planet-cycles/jupiter/

Jupiter takes 11.862615 years to orbit the Sun. For Jupiter we can expect some kind of conjunction with Regulus every 12 years. Each conjunction is part of an 83-year series of 7, again starting and ending with single conjunctions near the Sun. As with Saturn’s conjunctions, each series makes a gradual transition from single to double to triple and back, with two or three triple conjunctions in the middle of the series. So Jupiter’s triple conjunctions are a little more than twice as frequent as Saturn’s triple conjunctions, occurring at a frequency of two or three every 83 years.

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Why ,   what is the evidence that this gave location ....    heading off in a general direction anyway .   In any case  they would have known that a  few hours later the 'star' would have been towards the north and later it would be setting . 

They didn't spend the night looking at Jupiter as it sailed across the sky, they habitually took readings just before sunrise and again just before nightfall as far as it is known. So those would be the indicators they would use. At no time would Jupiter have been towards the North, since the relative motion of the stars are always East to West. As it happens the Jupiter Venus conjunction on 11th September 3 BC would have set in the West. Since it would take a little over 48 hours for the conjunction to run its course, over two days they had a bright star rising in the East and Setting in the West. So that is the direction they started off on, following the direction of the star. 2 Days later on 14th September 3 BC they had the 1st of the 3 conjunctions between Jupiter and Regulus as well, also rising in the East and setting in the West.

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yet above you noted ;  "  

which only the sharpest eyes would have been able to separate. To people it would have looked like a single star that had the combined brightness of both Venus and Juptiter, the two brightest objects in the sky.  

As a matter of fact it was sufficiently bright to be visible even during the day "

The king or his astrologers did not notice a new star visible in the day time ?  Because they were not astrologers like the Magi ?  Come on now  . 

 

Exactly, because even if they had noticed they would not have attached any particular significance to the event except that it was a spectacular sight. As a matter of fact that is exactly what the bible says. It even goes so far as to neglect the existence of any astrologers although there would have been some. There are good professionals and bad professionals even today that is true of all professions, why would astrologers be any different? Who did Herod consult? According to the bible, he consulted the chief priests and teachers of the law..... no professional astrologers around it seems as opposed to the magi which even today have particular fame for this area of expertise.

Matthew 2:2-10

After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi[a] from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”

When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him. When he had called together all the people’s chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Messiah was to be born. “In Bethlehem in Judea,” they replied, “for this is what the prophet has written:

“‘But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,
    are by no means least among the rulers of Judah;
for out of you will come a ruler
    who will shepherd my people Israel.

Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared. He sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and search carefully for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him.”

After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen when it rose went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. 10 When they saw the star, they were overjoyed.

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Are you suggesting the Magi were trained in 'Bible'  scripture and the local astrologers were not ?    Remember your point  3 above ^

No not really, they had to ask Herod about the new king. They had no conception of the Messiah or his birthplace in scripture. Information that was given by the local chief priests and teachers of the law.

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Yet, above,  you make it is something out of the ordinary .  

yes it was a house and they found it by  "  After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was  "

Does not sound like some 'conjunction'  that gave a general direction does it ?   What is the ref for the age of  Jesus and what is the difference in age between infant and child ?  

How did they 'follow Jupiter'   when it was stopped in the sky, but the earth was still rotating causing the heavens to seemingly revolve and  Jupiter to move with them .

Do you even understand how a retrograde works or what a 'still point' is ?  In any case, the Bible says the star moved and stopped over where the child was . 

This remindes me of an old army comedy routine where someone calls in their position ;  " There is a very bright star overhead and I am directly under that . " 

 Even though JUpiter and the heavens were moving across the sky at the regular rate ?     

Archaeoastronomy is a little more detailed than one can pick up from watching youtubes .

Visually it was an amazing sight for the people, they just didn't understand what it meant. It was also about a year and a half in the past by the time the magi arrived in Jerusalem.

Jesus would have been about 1 year and 3 months old upon the arrival of the Magi in Jerusalem.

Once they reached Jerusalem  in December 2 BC and got directions from Herod to go to Bethlehem, they would have gotten up in the early morning of 25th December 2 BC and this is what they would have seen.....

Jupiter_Venus_25.12.02_BC_-_0600hrs.jpg

The location given by Herod was confirmed by Jupiter hanging in the middle of the morning sky, its movement stopped as it reversed its retrograde one more time. (Your still point right there and then) It had moved and it did stop exactly as stated in the bible. The heavens were indeed moving at a regular rate, but that is not the point. They habitually worked with readings taken just before sunrise and sunset. At those times the indicators were quite clear. You mention the lack of a conjunction here, but I never said there was one at this moment in time on 25th December 2 BC. I think location is quite clear in all respects.

So to recapitulate, there were three sets of conjunctions.

1. The Virgo Sun moon encounter of 11th September 3 BC. 

Virgo_sun_moon_11.09.03_BC_-_0900hrs.jpg

2. A triple conjunction of Jupiter with Regulus on 14th September 3 BC followed by another two encounters on February 17th, 2 BC and on May 8th to the 9th, 2 BC. 

Jupiter_Regulus_14.09.03_BC_-_0720hrs.jp

Finally on June 17th 2 BC the Jupiter Venus conjunction that is the famous Star of Bethlehem.

Star_of_Beth_17.06.02_BC_-_2030hrs.jpg

Archaeoastronomy is difficult if you don't have the correct tools at your disposal.

Edited by Jor-el
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