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nephili

Is "The Devil" necessary?

396 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, Grandpa Greenman said:

So if god tells you to take a fly leap you jump off a chair to test god.  I do remember something saying don't test the lord. Either you trust him or you don't, either you believe or you don't.  Say you jump off the chair and sprain your ankle, maybe that happen, because you didn't have faith and didn't jump off a cliff.   God's will or the Devil's will, it still comes down to a pigeon dancing for a random peanut. If a voice tells me to jump off a cliff I'm not going to test it out, I'm going to call my Doctor or 911.   I had a medication cause me to have auditory hallucinations.  It took me a bit to understand what was going on, but as soon as I did I sought medical help.     :)

You do as you wil.

In my life god is real and powerful with real and powerful interactions. i can't afford to just dismiss this theoretically  If i do something then the consequences will be real and powerful.

So no, I dont trust  god  without question. I wouldn't do something he told me to, to hurt another, for example, because historically in my life, that would not be what god would tell me to do and would run counter to all he has told me BUT if i was faced with a raging bushfire and death , i would obey instantly and implicitly any guidance god gave. God gave us common sense (as my mother used to say) and free will to act  So i have to weigh gods instructions with prior knowledge my own ethics and moralities and  common sense   I don't have hallucinations or delusions (ascertained medically)      so this makes it even more important to act carefully and prudently . Of course if you never test  a god's words you will never know their truth   No, dont jump off the cliff but imagine f you jumped off the chair and found yourself flying  What then?  Ready for a cliff now?      

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22 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Because crazy knows crazy. I've always been fascinated by those who "know gods's will". It's a kind of authoritarian thing I suppose. Plus the amount to stock they put into spiritual text. Kinda reminds me of the whole, god of this world bit. Maybe the real heaven is full of atheist and agnostics. 

It is sad that one would  use a word like crazy to describe people who believe in a god, or who indeed commune with a god. Would you consider druids or shamans who commune with the spirits of nature  to be "crazy"? 

I guess it goes to a belief that this is impossible, and so everyone who makes  such claims is therefore mistaken, and must be delusional hallucinating or needs driven. eg driven by emotional or psychological needs to construct such a belief.  .

No professional would diagnose either belief,  or communing with a god construct, to be insane or even mentally ill.  It is quite normal human psychological behaviour.

Of course there ARE mental illnesses which manifest in hallucinations, delusions and imagined conversations with all sorts of imagined entities

However some people know a gods will because that  will is clearly made manifest, and backed up by consequences for following or not following the expressed will of the god.

 The mechanism of communication can come in many forms,  but if it works functionally, and benefits the person, then no medical professional is going to try and "cure " it. Indeed it may be an essential, integrated part of a person's psychological  persona, and  required for their happy, safe,  and functioning existence.    

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19 hours ago, back to earth said:

Will, maybe you think that mankind needs a new religious outlook, is that it ?  If so, do you see that the Urantia Book supplies this, for you ... and also potentially others.

Yes, I most certainly do think mankind needs a new religious outlook. Thank you for asking.

And yes, I also think the Urantia Book supplies this "outlook" but not as a holy book, rather as an assist with the presence that is already working with us from within. To help us achieve the understanding of something new (although it's always been a part of the life of many from time in immemorial). This "something new" is true religion which is personal and unencumbered with primitive rites, priests, institutional authority, and devotion to "holy" books.

I you know that you know BTE, that the Urantia Book is not a "holy" book. Frankly, I'll be surprised if you think otherwise since you told me, you've spent time studying it and undoubtedly know how people, who use it, feel about unduly venerating something (like a book) unnecessarily. 

I will only say this. 

If the Urantia Book is anything, its a book of helpful explanation, a book of direction.

 

 

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18 hours ago, nephili said:

It sure seems possible.

I would go back and count the times the link has been posted and the website has been quoted and promoted, but I don't think I care enough to do that.

all one has to do is type a subject into the Urantia site search box, get the ref and quote it back at people ,...   

 

Image result for meerkat 'simples'

 

 

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4 hours ago, Will Due said:

Yes, I most certainly do think mankind needs a new religious outlook. Thank you for asking.

And yes, I also think the Urantia Book supplies this "outlook" but not as a holy book, rather as an assist with the presence that is already working with us from within. To help us achieve the understanding of something new (although it's always been a part of the life of many from time in immemorial). This "something new" is true religion which is personal and unencumbered with primitive rites, priests, institutional authority, and devotion to "holy" books.

I you know that you know BTE, that the Urantia Book is not a "holy" book. Frankly, I'll be surprised if you think otherwise since you told me, you've spent time studying it and undoubtedly know how people, who use it, feel about unduly venerating something (like a book) unnecessarily. 

I will only say this. 

If the Urantia Book is anything, its a book of helpful explanation, a book of direction.

 

 

It claims to be the '4th epochal revelation' . 

You just skimmed over that bit  .  But, indeed, you are free to use it persoanally as you wish .

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5 hours ago, back to earth said:

It claims to be the '4th epochal revelation' . 

You just skimmed over that bit  .  But, indeed, you are free to use it persoanally as you wish .

Actually, the Urantia Book is the 5th epochal revelation.

The '4th epochal revelation' is Jesus of Nazareth. 

 

 

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15 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Of course. Human behaviour has extreme ranges  in all things, including religious . That is why i used the quote, and explained that we can know what is good by the consequences an action brings.

When you plant a tree you cannot know what it will bear until it fruits when you taste the fruit you will know if it is pleasant or unpleasant  .'However if you KNOW the difference between a lemon and an orange  you will pant the one you want.

if you know good and evil you can act, (plant) to bear the fruit, consequence) you are desiring.  

Just sayin.. if you want to use that analogy again, you might want to change your fruits up. Quite often oranges and lemons are grafted, and due to that practice and depending on upkeep habits.. your lemon tree can turn into an orange tree or orange tree start growing lemon branches. You might want to do something like lemon/apple or perhaps oranges/peaches. Fruits that don't get grafted together.

But to expand more correctly on your analogy... you might not know what lemons/oranges it will bear till it fruits, but when it does you can grow the one you want- if you also keep up maintaining and grooming that tree to continue to produce the fruit you want, and remove what you don't want. If you let your tree just bear it's fruits, it will indeed bear all the fruits it has to offer both sour and sweet, not just the sweet ones you want. An interesting point in this analogy is that you used lemons and oranges- neither are natural fruits, they are both created by man.

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7 hours ago, Will Due said:

Actually, the Urantia Book is the 5th epochal revelation.

The '4th epochal revelation' is Jesus of Nazareth. 

 

 

I was wrong .

You are right .

Now, would you care to address the  corrected issue and answer the question ? 

 

Or is this more games, like before, and you will avoid answering any question that seems remotely tricky ? 

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6 hours ago, rashore said:

Just sayin.. if you want to use that analogy again, you might want to change your fruits up. Quite often oranges and lemons are grafted, and due to that practice and depending on upkeep habits.. your lemon tree can turn into an orange tree or orange tree start growing lemon branches. You might want to do something like lemon/apple or perhaps oranges/peaches. Fruits that don't get grafted together.

But to expand more correctly on your analogy... you might not know what lemons/oranges it will bear till it fruits, but when it does you can grow the one you want- if you also keep up maintaining and grooming that tree to continue to produce the fruit you want, and remove what you don't want. If you let your tree just bear it's fruits, it will indeed bear all the fruits it has to offer both sour and sweet, not just the sweet ones you want. An interesting point in this analogy is that you used lemons and oranges- neither are natural fruits, they are both created by man.

 

I was more interested in his claim that  :  " When you plant a tree you cannot know what it will bear until it fruits '

I planted a lemonade tree in my back yard   ... I knew it was going to fruit with lemonade ... and it did ! 

Not only that, I planted a lemon tree and got lemons , avocados off the avocado tree . At the moment the pecan trees are producing a lot of pecans .  Strangely enough, the same with my veggies. The tomatoes produce tomatoes ... etc .

 

You know ... I kinda suspect Mr Walker's  trees dont actually produce random  species of  fruit .     Knowing the way his mind works, I think he plants a tree, say an orange tree, and then he forgets what type of tree it was .  Then when it fruits .... aha!   Oranges ! 

And the mysteries of life continues !  

For  those with a failing memory , I recommend , when first planting ;

 

Related image

 

 

Edited by back to earth
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46 minutes ago, back to earth said:

I was wrong .

You are right .

Now, would you care to address the  corrected issue and answer the question ? 

 

Or is this more games, like before, and you will avoid answering any question that seems remotely tricky ? 

I'm not avoiding anything BTE. If I've overlooked a question of yours, it wasn't deliberate.

If you don't mind, what question is it you want me to answer?

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Will Due said:

I'm not avoiding anything BTE. If I've overlooked a question of yours, it wasn't deliberate.

If you don't mind, what question is it you want me to answer?

 

 

You have touted the book rather extensively, then when questioned you 

If the Urantia Book is anything, its a book of helpful explanation, a book of direction. "

I suggest the Book itself says it is more,  as it claims to be an 'epochal revelation' from God equal to  or an extension of ,the advent of Jesus and Christianity. and you seemed to be glossing over that in your new definition of what the book is .

That is what I suggested you were glossing over  . You seemed to be praising it , lauding it and quoting it continuously,for being such a revelation, yet you all off a sudden  say it is only a book of helpful explanation and direction . 

And then when I say , what about its  4th epochal revelation aspect, you come back with   '5th revelation'

Then I go "okay then 5th , but the answer  to the question ?

you go 'what question '  ? 

If you cant keep up with your own conversations , fine .   But dont try to ....

 

Image result for muhammad ali footwork gif

 

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Well according to this guy....Satan has been misunderstood

 

 

Quote

 

What the Devil? Prince of Darkness Is Misunderstood, Says UCLA Professor

He's not the enemy of God, his name really isn't Lucifer and he isn't even evil. And as far as leading Adam and Eve astray, that was a bad rap stemming from a case of mistaken identity.

"There's little or no evidence in the Bible for most of the characteristics and deeds commonly attributed to Satan," insists a UCLA professor with four decades in what he describes as "the devil business."

In "Satan: A Biography" (Cambridge Press), Henry Ansgar Kelly puts forth the most comprehensive case ever made for sympathy for the devil, arguing that the Bible actually provides a kinder, gentler version of the infamous antagonist than typically thought.

"A strict reading of the Bible shows Satan to be less like Darth Vader and more and more like an overzealous prosecutor," said Kelly, a UCLA professor emeritus of English and the former director of the university's Center for Medieval and Renaissance Studies. "He's not so much the proud and angry figure who turns away from God as [he is] a Joseph McCarthy or J. Edgar Hoover. Satan's basic intention is to uncover wrongdoing and treachery, however overzealous and unscrupulous the means. But he's still part of God's administration."


Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2006-08-devil-prince-darkness-misunderstood-ucla.html#jCp


 

 

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21 minutes ago, back to earth said:

You have touted the book rather extensively, then when questioned you 

If the Urantia Book is anything, its a book of helpful explanation, a book of direction. "

I suggest the Book itself says it is more,  as it claims to be an 'epochal revelation' from God equal to  or an extension of ,the advent of Jesus and Christianity. and you seemed to be glossing over that in your new definition of what the book is .

That is what I suggested you were glossing over  . You seemed to be praising it , lauding it and quoting it continuously,for being such a revelation, yet you all off a sudden  say it is only a book of helpful explanation and direction . 

And then when I say , what about its  4th epochal revelation aspect, you come back with   '5th revelation'

Then I go "okay then 5th , but the answer  to the question ?

you go 'what question '  ? 

If you cant keep up with your own conversations , fine .   But dont try to ....

 

 

 

Have I been rude to you?

Disrespectful?

You said you read the Urantia Book. Then you know what you're kicking.

I'm on the road. But I'll be happy to get to your needs at my next stop and fill you in with the information you already know.

 

 

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10 hours ago, rashore said:

Just sayin.. if you want to use that analogy again, you might want to change your fruits up. Quite often oranges and lemons are grafted, and due to that practice and depending on upkeep habits.. your lemon tree can turn into an orange tree or orange tree start growing lemon branches. You might want to do something like lemon/apple or perhaps oranges/peaches. Fruits that don't get grafted together.

But to expand more correctly on your analogy... you might not know what lemons/oranges it will bear till it fruits, but when it does you can grow the one you want- if you also keep up maintaining and grooming that tree to continue to produce the fruit you want, and remove what you don't want. If you let your tree just bear it's fruits, it will indeed bear all the fruits it has to offer both sour and sweet, not just the sweet ones you want. An interesting point in this analogy is that you used lemons and oranges- neither are natural fruits, they are both created by man.

No need to change the analogy  You can tell what a tree is from the fruit when you taste it; and conversely if you know you are planting an orange tree you know what fruit to expect. If a person commits adultery the y already know the consequences( or fruits) of such an act which almost always flow from it When you steal, you know the consequences which are likely  When you take drugs you now the consequences.  Some times knowledge is not enough to stop us acting ,  but  the maxim provides a warning to consider the fruits of any behaviour before you commit to it. 

The rest of your point is valid  but not relevant to the particular saying from the bible  You are correct that all "fruit " tastes  sweeter if effort is put into maintaining, caring for it, and  nurturing the tree or vine on which it grows I am sure there is a bible verse or two which relates to that truth as well 

Not sure about them not being natural.

We use modern cultivars, but then we do this with almost all foods, including grains, potatoes and tomatoes.   Citrus began as small berries and evolved into larger fruits  It was at first not as sweet or edible as modern fruit  but was cultivated  over the last few thousand years, by humans, into present day forms.   The four natural forms from which all modern citrus has descended  were the citron, pomelo, papeda and mandarin .

( I have about 30 fruit trees,  and about 20 different vine fruits) and am about half way through pruning them now  Oranges are just coming ripe,  but  my favorite citrus  are the mandarins 

I think subconsciously i used oranges and lemons because while the y are similar their tastes are the antitheses of each other   You can even get lemons which look like oranges, but if you take one bite you will know the difference We have a number of orange and mandarin trees but no lemons (or limes) , as i never eat them or use the juice,  so for me they epitomised how different fruits can be Apples and oranges, while different have a common sweetness and pleasantness of taste.  

Edited by Mr Walker

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In a religious context, a "devil" is needed because he is the "fall guy." If anything goes wrong, they blame it on the antagonist or "arch nemesis" of the deity they worship. If something good happens, they give credit to their preferred deity. Some people go as far as saying that even if bad things happen to good people, it's because it's all some part of their deity's "special plan" for that individual. If someone decides to listen to music that doesn't fit with their ideology or they start engaging in activities they don't approve, they're being "led astray" by said devil, and that anybody who disobeys their deity's commands will be punished like said "devil." Because they believe their deity can do absolutely nothing wrong, that's why--again--they need a "fall guy." The devil is their fall guy.

Edited by UFO_Monster
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5 hours ago, Will Due said:

Have I been rude to you?

Disrespectful?

You said you read the Urantia Book. Then you know what you're kicking.

I'm on the road. But I'll be happy to get to your needs at my next stop and fill you in with the information you already know.

 

 

Wow ... its not information from the book its about a question I am asking Y O U    that you  are avoiding like all the others .

and avoiding it again with this statement 

 

I dont actually believe you are  this thick, you are faking it .   So actually, dont bother , forget it  ......

actually, forget the whole thing !  If you are not faking this total lack of comprehension on your part , there is no use discussing things  as you dont have the required ability .

 

 

Image result for judge judy rolleyes gif

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51 minutes ago, back to earth said:

Wow ... its not information from the book its about a question I am asking Y O U    that you  are avoiding like all the others .

and avoiding it again with this statement 

See this post: 

I answered the questions. 

 

 

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OMG  ... not the question you DID answer  ... the question you did not answer .

Image result for judge judy rolleyes gif

 

 

but now , as I said,  dont bother, as I know how this carry on will continue . 

You go your happy way, and will I go mine .  

 

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1 minute ago, back to earth said:

OMG  ... not the question you DID answer  ... the question you did not answer .

No bother. Post the link to where you asked me a question I missed.

 

 

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8 hours ago, UFO_Monster said:

In a religious context, a "devil" is needed because he is the "fall guy." If anything goes wrong, they blame it on the antagonist or "arch nemesis" of the deity they worship. If something good happens, they give credit to their preferred deity. Some people go as far as saying that even if bad things happen to good people, it's because it's all some part of their deity's "special plan" for that individual. If someone decides to listen to music that doesn't fit with their ideology or they start engaging in activities they don't approve, they're being "led astray" by said devil, and that anybody who disobeys their deity's commands will be punished like said "devil." Because they believe their deity can do absolutely nothing wrong, that's why--again--they need a "fall guy." The devil is their fall guy.

Scapegoat. 

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Is the devil necessary? Sure. It's the other side of the same coin. The reality is up/down, light/dark, in/out, etc., etc. therefore good does not exist without its' opposite and god also has an opposite. We can apply different term, names, etc. but in this reality, at least, it's that way.

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