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Our brains contain 11-dimensional structures

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This makes sense... I have always been misunderstood, my mind is working in the 11th dimension.

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M-theory - which brings together the various versions of string theory - requires a universe with 11 dimensions.

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In case anyone is confused, this research does NOT suggest that the brain is actually 11-dimensional. It has NOTHING to do with M-theory or any other form of string theory.

This research describes an approach to understand the brain by taking a collection of interconnected neurons (all which exist in 3D) and imagining it in higher-dimensional space if that simplifies the structure.

(i.e. If I have four dots on a piece of paper, and lines connecting every dot to every other dot, I can untangle this by imagining it exists as a tetrahedron in 3D.)

This research uses algebraic topology to model networks in the brain.

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6 minutes ago, sepulchrave said:

In case anyone is confused, this research does NOT suggest that the brain is actually 11-dimensional. It has NOTHING to do with M-theory or any other form of string theory.

I wasn't suggesting there is a connection with M-theory: I just pointed out that M-theory requires 11 dimensions. 

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A great many mathematical models contain multidimensional ''structures.''

A simple example is to connect 11 water tanks of different sizes and shapes to a single drain using a different pipe size for each connection.

The equation for modeling the flow rate in the single drain would be 11-dimensional

That a mathematical analysis would contain components that are higher dimensional isn't very surprising to me, after some thought on the matter. Still, this is very interesting. I hope it leads to a better understanding of the brain.

Harte

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Conceptualized perception originating in the metaphysical?
Huh, who would have thought.

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12 hours ago, sepulchrave said:

In case anyone is confused, this research does NOT suggest that the brain is actually 11-dimensional. It has NOTHING to do with M-theory or any other form of string theory.

This research describes an approach to understand the brain by taking a collection of interconnected neurons (all which exist in 3D) and imagining it in higher-dimensional space if that simplifies the structure.

(i.e. If I have four dots on a piece of paper, and lines connecting every dot to every other dot, I can untangle this by imagining it exists as a tetrahedron in 3D.)

This research uses algebraic topology to model networks in the brain.

 

12 hours ago, Harte said:

simple example is to connect 11 water tanks of different sizes and shapes to a single drain using a different pipe size for each connection.

The equation for modeling the flow rate in the single drain would be 11-dimensional

That a mathematical analysis would contain components that are higher dimensional isn't very surprising to me, after some thought on the matter. Still, this is very interesting. I hope it leads to a better understanding of the brain.

Harte

Thanks for that friends.  You saved me from going over the edge.  Its been 40 years since I did linear algebra or vector calculations.  It did not spring to mind initially.  When I skimmed the article, I started to sputter thinking it was just a load of new age hyperbole.  You have made it logical, and while the analysis is good, maybe not so surprising that a neural body with hundreds of cells linked by dozens of pathways each could create some pretty complex networks. Thanks.

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I'm a math teacher these days, so I sort of keep my hand in it.

I haven't done any real linear algebra since the 1970's myself, but I have on occasion helped people with assignments like proving a given set is a group, ring or field.

My example comes from the first college calculus class (differential.)

Harte

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Posted (edited)

If anybody is interested those quantum physicists are currently creating a consciousness experiment based on Bells Theorem to demonstrate the mind existing separate from reality.

There is a EPR paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_paradox which was later tested and confirmed using a variety of Bells Theorem experiments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_test_experiments (as well as others not listed on Wiki). And the scientists have realised if the mind is indeed separate from reality then they could break the EPR Paradox by doing Bells Theorem experiments using the mind.

What the EPR paradox means is that you can setup a special scenario in which two objects can be linked to each other despite being far apart with no physical connection or force acting between the two. Linked to each other in such a way that they can have influence each other.

Example: Imagine two objects, they both share something identical about them, its something behaving as an identical probability, and remains that way until information is gained producing an outcome.

You gain information on the first object and because that outcome must be true for the other object too (because its identical and behaving as an identical probability) then the outcome transfers from one object to the other. So the outcome for the probability of object A teleports across to object B. So if object B was far away then you just influenced the outcome of its probability by gaining information on object A.

Of course if minds are separate and outside of reality then you cannot quantum between them. The scientists are trying to setup a quantum teleportation experiment between two minds (something identical about them behaving as an identical probability) and seeing if teleportation can still be done between the two. If it fails it confirms the mind is separate and outside of reality. Basically you can voodoo between objects but not minds.

Edited by RabidMongoose
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22 hours ago, Derek Willis said:

I wasn't suggesting there is a connection with M-theory: I just pointed out that M-theory requires 11 dimensions. 

When I saw 11 dimensions of the brain neural system  paths, I thought of m theory too. Could the  11 dimensions required in the M theory be more then coincidence since  11 also seems to be used by the nature of brain functions. 

Not nessarily connected to each other but it's still food for thought. 

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1 hour ago, RabidMongoose said:

If anybody is interested those quantum physicists are currently creating a consciousness experiment based on Bells Theorem to demonstrate the mind existing separate from reality.

There is a EPR paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_paradox which was later tested and confirmed using a variety of Bells Theorem experiments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_test_experiments (as well as others not listed on Wiki). And the scientists have realised if the mind is indeed separate from reality then they could break the EPR Paradox by doing Bells Theorem experiments using the mind.

What the EPR paradox means is that you can setup a special scenario in which two objects can be linked to each other despite being far apart with no physical connection or force acting between the two. Linked to each other in such a way that they can have influence each other.

Example: Imagine two objects, they both share something identical about them, its something behaving as an identical probability, and remains that way until information is gained producing an outcome.

You gain information on the first object and because that outcome must be true for the other object too (because its identical and behaving as an identical probability) then the outcome transfers from one object to the other. So the outcome for the probability of object A teleports across to object B. So if object B was far away then you just influenced the outcome of its probability by gaining information on object A.

Of course if minds are separate and outside of reality then you cannot quantum between them. The scientists are trying to setup a quantum teleportation experiment between two minds (something identical about them behaving as an identical probability) and seeing if teleportation can still be done between the two. If it fails it confirms the mind is separate and outside of reality. Basically you can voodoo between objects but not minds.

Thanks it makes me feel good to know that I'm not alone in my interest of contemplating such things.

Has anyone one else thought about the use of the term teleportation in these theories and experiments?

Teleportation as a  term  to me seems to be something  changing to an energy that is transmitted and appears somewhere else but it doesn't disappear in between. 

In the quantum world it is more of a jump in and out of reality or time and place or a connection between two different objects separated in locations, to our observations.

I  kind of feel they shouldn't use the term teleportation in describing it.

I get the impression that a multiple dimension theory would explain could explain the weird effects that we observe in their  experiments. They are not really seperate objects but the same one appearing in different dimensions and space at the same time.

Think of the story of the  2 D flatlander observing a 3 dimension circle that miraculously appears and disappears. 

How fascinating if 11 dimensions were really at work in nature!  It could answer many mysteries of physics that still remain unsolved.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, White Unicorn said:

Thanks it makes me feel good to know that I'm not alone in my interest of contemplating such things.

Has anyone one else thought about the use of the term teleportation in these theories and experiments?

Teleportation as a  term  to me seems to be something  changing to an energy that is transmitted and appears somewhere else but it doesn't disappear in between. 

In the quantum world it is more of a jump in and out of reality or time and place or a connection between two different objects separated in locations, to our observations.

I  kind of feel they shouldn't use the term teleportation in describing it.

I get the impression that a multiple dimension theory would explain could explain the weird effects that we observe in their  experiments. They are not really seperate objects but the same one appearing in different dimensions and space at the same time.

Think of the story of the  2 D flatlander observing a 3 dimension circle that miraculously appears and disappears. 

How fascinating if 11 dimensions were really at work in nature!  It could answer many mysteries of physics that still remain unsolved.

I`m referring to the quantum teleportation definition which is where a quantum state is transferred from one object to another instantly - http://www.sciencealert.com/quantum-teleportation-was-just-achieved-over-7-km-of-cable

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This is way beyond anything mathematics I ever knew. I keep arguing with myself that Pi can't be an endless number because you can measure the circumference of a circle as a finite number, say 10 inches.  If Pi never ends and never repeats how can you measure 10 inches?, find the center of the circle by cutting arcs through it and never be able to finitely measure the radius?  Our basic math must be wrong! Why else would we need quantum math and other varieties to prove theories.  Maybe I just killed one too many brain cells in the 20's, but I ponder this every once in a while, come to no conclusion and have another beer.

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17 hours ago, Harte said:

I'm a math teacher these days, so I sort of keep my hand in it.

Salute to math and science teachers everywhere!   I still remember my high school physics and calculus teacher being one of the coolest guys ever.

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Pi is the ratio of circumference to diameter. If you hold circumference to an integer value (as in your example,) then the diameter is an irrational number. Works the other way too.

Harte

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9 hours ago, paperdyer said:

... I keep arguing with myself that Pi can't be an endless number because you can measure the circumference of a circle as a finite number, say 10 inches.  If Pi never ends and never repeats how can you measure 10 inches?, find the center of the circle by cutting arcs through it and never be able to finitely measure the radius?  ...

Yes, people were thinking a lot about this already in antiquity, for example the Pythagoreans I think.

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On 2017-06-13 at 9:54 PM, Derek Willis said:

I wasn't suggesting there is a connection with M-theory: I just pointed out that M-theory requires 11 dimensions. 

Yeah, I recognized by the wording of your post that you were just pointing out an interesting coincidence. I just wanted to act fast to prevent other readers from getting carried away with misconceptions.

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17 hours ago, paperdyer said:

This is way beyond anything mathematics I ever knew. I keep arguing with myself that Pi can't be an endless number because you can measure the circumference of a circle as a finite number, say 10 inches.  If Pi never ends and never repeats how can you measure 10 inches?, find the center of the circle by cutting arcs through it and never be able to finitely measure the radius?  Our basic math must be wrong! Why else would we need quantum math and other varieties to prove theories.  Maybe I just killed one too many brain cells in the 20's, but I ponder this every once in a while, come to no conclusion and have another beer.

You can measure a yard and you can measure a foot. However, the ratio of a foot to a yard is 1/3, which as a decimal is 0.33333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333.....

 

 

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17 hours ago, paperdyer said:

This is way beyond anything mathematics I ever knew. I keep arguing with myself that Pi can't be an endless number because you can measure the circumference of a circle as a finite number, say 10 inches.  If Pi never ends and never repeats how can you measure 10 inches?, find the center of the circle by cutting arcs through it and never be able to finitely measure the radius?  Our basic math must be wrong! Why else would we need quantum math and other varieties to prove theories.  Maybe I just killed one too many brain cells in the 20's, but I ponder this every once in a while, come to no conclusion and have another beer.

Math is so precise but sometimes things like Pi does boggle the mind when you think about it LOL

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17 hours ago, paperdyer said:

This is way beyond anything mathematics I ever knew. I keep arguing with myself that Pi can't be an endless number because you can measure the circumference of a circle as a finite number, say 10 inches.  If Pi never ends and never repeats how can you measure 10 inches?, find the center of the circle by cutting arcs through it and never be able to finitely measure the radius?  Our basic math must be wrong! Why else would we need quantum math and other varieties to prove theories.  Maybe I just killed one too many brain cells in the 20's, but I ponder this every once in a while, come to no conclusion and have another beer.

According to Plato our minds are full of ideas (including maths) which cannot be fully replicated into the material world. His views mirror Gnosticism about how the material universe is created.

Example: Our scientists believe if you keep dividing something up you eventually reach its fundamental building blocks. Be it building blocks of matter, energy, space, time, or others. So if we take the area of a circle as an example and try to calculate it using 2nr then we get an answer which has infinite decimal places. How can you get an answer for the area of a circle that has infinite decimal places if the area is made out of fundamental building blocks?

So maths (abstract idea in our minds) doesnt descend into the material world properly. It cannot do. In order for something to exist in a material sense then it needs to be made from fundamental building blocks creating a conflict with maths that has irrational numbers. Be it irrational numbers going into a formula such as pi or irrational answers coming out of them with their infinite decimal places. Or other examples of irrationality.

According to Plato and the Gnostics then the mind contains perfect ideas. It tries to create a universe from them but because those ideas cannot be fully replicated into a material universe it turns out to be an imperfect creation. Funnily enough, it also shows the mind exists outside of reality.

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43 minutes ago, sepulchrave said:

Yeah, I recognized by the wording of your post that you were just pointing out an interesting coincidence. I just wanted to act fast to prevent other readers from getting carried away with misconceptions.

That might work here at U-M and in this section, but it can't save the rest of the internet from such folly.

This very coincidence might be the reason the media picked up the story.

After all, if there are 11-dimensional "structures," then there are 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10- dimensional "structures" as well.

How many media stories about these other "structures" have we seen?

Harte

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23 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

I`m referring to the quantum teleportation definition which is where a quantum state is transferred from one object to another instantly - http://www.sciencealert.com/quantum-teleportation-was-just-achieved-over-7-km-of-cable

I consider that definition of teleportation correct since it involves a intermediary connection of some sort prior to the teleportation between the two, via lasers etc.

I also tend to think that possibly there is another aspect  of an apparent teleportation  that isn't really teleportation because it is actually contains a  higher multidimensional aspect of the same object. 

I'm curious if anyone one here knows of any experimentations on the multidimensional theories being tested.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

13 minutes ago, White Unicorn said:

I consider that definition of teleportation correct since it involves a intermediary connection of some sort prior to the teleportation between the two, via lasers etc.

I also tend to think that possibly there is another aspect  of an apparent teleportation  that isn't really teleportation because it is actually contains a  higher multidimensional aspect of the same object. 

I'm curious if anyone one here knows of any experimentations on the multidimensional theories being tested.

In simple English its teleporting the outcome of a probability from one object to another which has been enabled by the way things were setup (two separated objects sharing an identical but unknown quantity or value). It means by measuring Object A here you can alter the probability of Object B over there in exactly the same way you have just altered it for Object A. And the process is faster than light (its actually instant).

The formula for a lot of the higher dimensions has been done and is used within electrical engineering, nuclear power plants, microwave ovens, radar stations, lasers, even ion drives at NASA. The stuff works, the debate over what it all means (extra dimensions, parallel universes, multiverse, the matrix, holographic universe, hidden variables, etc) continues.

The fact you are on a computer right now is proof.

Edited by RabidMongoose
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24 minutes ago, White Unicorn said:

Math is so precise but sometimes things like Pi does boggle the mind when you think about it LOL

There's much more than that to boggle the mind in math.

Just using the current topic as an example, there are more irrational numbers (numbers like pi) than there are rational numbers in the set of all real numbers.

Infinitely more in fact.

This is not a difficult thing to prove or understand if you think in terms of infinite decimals.

Harte

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