Neanderthal-Homo sapiens transition

[Claire.]

Dawn of humanity: Neanderthal-Homo sapiens transition

Archaeologists at The Australian National University (ANU) and the University of Sydney have provided a window into one of the most exciting periods in human history -- the transition between Neanderthals and modern humans. An archaeological dig in a cave in the Moravian region of the Czech Republic has provided a timeline of evidence from 10 sedimentary layers spanning 28,000 to 50,000 years ago. This is the period when our modern human ancestors first arrived in Europe.

Read more: Science News

[Susanc241]

Not quite on subject but this seems a good place for an expert to perhaps explain something I have wondered about for a long time.  My understanding is that early man left Africa and spread around Europe where they met with Neanderthals and possibly interbred and maybe directly caused them to go extinct.  Where were Neanderthals supposed to have come from?  Presumably they are a branch off the same tree from earlier and therefore also came out of Africa and ran parallel for an extended length of time.  I have never been able to get a clear answer about the origins of the Neanderthals, or for that matter the Devonians (might have got that name wrong).  Can anyone help me out here, chronologically and geographically.  Thanks.

[Gingitsune]

It's Denisovans, it's start like Denis. ^_~

It's pretty much as you propose. The closest modern relative to humans, chimps. bonobos and gorillas all live in Africa. The continent also has the most diverse ancient homo and proto-homo fossils, so it makes little doubt Neanderthal and Denisovans' ancestors ultimately come from there too, although they are themselves exclusively in Eurasia. On top of this, we have DNA from humans, chimp, bonobos, gorillas, Neanderthals and  Denisovans, so the affiliation is clear.

Then there were many wave of homo in Eurasia. Homo erectus was the first to be found there. then some other came, like homo antecessor and homo sapiens. It's not clear how these are related to us or apes, though, no DNA so far. Neanderthal and Denisovan are descendants from homo Heidelbergensis,  we have DNA from the three of them. Specialists though heidelbergensis was the common ancestor between Sapiens and Neandertal, but DNA proved this wrong.

It's not clear how it all connect yet, we may never found out for sure. Homo floresiensis seems to be related to homo erectus and could be a descendant from this early out of Africa migration. Homo heidelbergensis could be a direct descendant of erectus, or he could be a descendant of a later wave into the Eurasian continent.

[oldrover]

On 6/18/2017 at 5:46 PM, Susanc241 said:

Not quite on subject but this seems a good place for an expert to perhaps explain something I have wondered about for a long time.  My understanding is that early man left Africa and spread around Europe where they met with Neanderthals and possibly interbred and maybe directly caused them to go extinct.  Where were Neanderthals supposed to have come from?  Presumably they are a branch off the same tree from earlier and therefore also came out of Africa and ran parallel for an extended length of time.  I have never been able to get a clear answer about the origins of the Neanderthals, or for that matter the Devonians (might have got that name wrong).  Can anyone help me out here, chronologically and geographically.  Thanks.

Not in detail, and some/much of this maybe about 20 years out of date (if so our resident paleo whizz will be along in a minute to correct me ).

But, we and Neandertals diverged fairly closely chronologically from I believe Homo Heidelbergensis, along with the Denisovans. There are other more obscure human groups who we've picked up on both via remains as in Africa, and genetic traces in certain populations, such as I think Australasia?

When I read up on this there were  two fairly distinct Neadndertal groups being discussed, a more gracile population in the Middle East, and a more robust 'typical' population in NW Europe. I'm not sure if this is still held to be the case. 

But, you're quite right about the interbreeding between these groups, that's been confirmed. 

[oldrover]

11 minutes ago, Gingitsune said:

Homo floresiensis seems to be related to homo erectus and could be a descendant from this early out of Africa migration.

They've been shown to be well outside of this line now. 

[Gingitsune]

1 minute ago, oldrover said:

They've been shown to be well outside of this line now. 

Possibly, I need to catch up on the subject.

[oldrover]

7 minutes ago, Gingitsune said:

Possibly, I need to catch up on the subject.

It changes so fast unless you're really into it there doesn't seem to be any keeping up with it. 

https://phys.org/news/2017-04-indonesian-hobbits-revealed.html

I think this is what I was thinking of.

[Gingitsune]

So they would be related to homo habilis... not clear when they moved in Eurasia then, it could be before erectus, or much later...

[Susanc241]

12 hours ago, Gingitsune said:

It's Denisovans, it's start like Denis. ^_~

It's pretty much as you propose. The closest modern relative to humans, chimps. bonobos and gorillas all live in Africa. The continent also has the most diverse ancient homo and proto-homo fossils, so it makes little doubt Neanderthal and Denisovans' ancestors ultimately come from there too, although they are themselves exclusively in Eurasia. On top of this, we have DNA from humans, chimp, bonobos, gorillas, Neanderthals and  Denisovans, so the affiliation is clear.

Then there were many wave of homo in Eurasia. Homo erectus was the first to be found there. then some other came, like homo antecessor and homo sapiens. It's not clear how these are related to us or apes, though, no DNA so far. Neanderthal and Denisovan are descendants from homo Heidelbergensis,  we have DNA from the three of them. Specialists though heidelbergensis was the common ancestor between Sapiens and Neandertal, but DNA proved this wrong.

It's not clear how it all connect yet, we may never found out for sure. Homo floresiensis seems to be related to homo erectus and could be a descendant from this early out of Africa migration. Homo heidelbergensis could be a direct descendant of erectus, or he could be a descendant of a later wave into the Eurasian continent.

 

12 hours ago, oldrover said:

Not in detail, and some/much of this maybe about 20 years out of date (if so our resident paleo whizz will be along in a minute to correct me ).

But, we and Neandertals diverged fairly closely chronologically from I believe Homo Heidelbergensis, along with the Denisovans. There are other more obscure human groups who we've picked up on both via remains as in Africa, and genetic traces in certain populations, such as I think Australasia?

When I read up on this there were  two fairly distinct Neadndertal groups being discussed, a more gracile population in the Middle East, and a more robust 'typical' population in NW Europe. I'm not sure if this is still held to be the case. 

But, you're quite right about the interbreeding between these groups, that's been confirmed. 

Thank you both for that info.  It seems, then that Neanderthals etc were in Europe before the main exodus of Homo sapiens, which must, by definition, be a second wave of movement out of Africa.  Which begs the question of why the Neanderthals etc decided to move north.  And is there any knowledge about the timescale?  How many thousands of years before the Homo sapiens did they leave Africa.  I have never heard of any apes or related species that are still in Africa having connections to Neanderthals.  Is this so?  Fascinating subject.

[Gingitsune]

It doen't seem Neanderthals and Denisovans moved into Eurasia as they were never found outside of the continent, they would instead evolved there from a older species, Heidelnergensis. Heidelbergensis moved in Eurasia from Africa, as we found bones in both Europe and Africa, Zambia and Ethiopia to be more precise. He would have lived between 700,000 and 200,000 years ago. Likewise, his tool style, named Acheulean, is found in both Eurasia and Africa. Acheulean is also associated with homo erectus, which is why he is though to be the ancestor of Heidelbergensis, Neandertal and Denisovan.

As for the connection with African apes, Neandertal is closer related to us, sapiens, but both of our species are close to the apes. They are closer than cats or lobster.