Was the Bible written earlier than thought?

[ShadowSot]

Are you sure? I seem to remember you saying something about maybe it being aliens. 

[ShadowSot]

17 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

I'm not as familiar with the ancient Hebrew military as I am with Egypt's, but in Egypt you were beamed up at age ten and trained ruthlessly by Klingons. Or something like that. No?

Okay, seriously, most smaller kingdoms like Judea probably didn't have a professional standing army. That kind of army usually belonged to the true superpowers like Egypt, Assyria, and Persia. And Egypt itself didn't even assemble a permanent, professional army until the New Kingdom (c. 1550 BCE). Prior to that it was all conscripted on an as-needed basis. The king and his court got the word out that he needed fresh meat soldiers, and the governors would round them up. This means a great many soldiers actually spent most of their time at home in their fields growing wheat and chasing sheep. I imagine this was how it worked in Judea, too.

Most farmers, herdsman, laborers, and other simple people were not literate beyond the ability perhaps to write their names. Certainly most soldiers in Near Eastern armies were illiterate. This is why it struck me as interesting that the Arad ostraca were written by every-day soldiers. You know who wasn't involved at all?

Aliens!   

Ah, right. That's something I often fail to remember is that standing armies were rare. 

[kmt_sesh]

36 minutes ago, ShadowSot said:

Are you sure? I seem to remember you saying something about maybe it being aliens. 

You're probably thinking of Giogio Tsoukalos. I'm often mistake for him.

[ShadowSot]

52 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

You're probably thinking of Giogio Tsoukalos. I'm often mistake for him.

Oh wait, Found it.

[Jarocal]

On 6/22/2017 at 11:51 PM, ShadowSot said:

As for where everybody is... No clue. It's a Thursday. Even people with a social life don't do anything on Thursdays surely. 

They call it "Thirsty Thursday" for a reason. And if your headed out on a Thursday, you may as well just keep going till Sunday evening.

[Jarocal]

On 6/23/2017 at 0:50 AM, cormac mac airt said:

I would tend to side not only with Christopher Rollston, for the reasons given in the article, but also to believe that ANY evidence of literacy before the Babylonian Exile doesn't automatically equate to parts of the Hebrew Bible itself being written that early. And as we know parts of the OT are reworkings/rewritings of previously extant stories from the Middle East/Mesopotamia so are not even original to the Hebrews to begin with. 

cormac

Wasn't Abraham originally from Mesopotamia?

[+Hammerclaw]

18 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

You're probably thinking of Giogio Tsoukalos. I'm often mistake for him.

Dude looks like he's been huffing some good herb.

[Sundew]

I believe the earliest book written was Job. Moses who penned the first five books of Scripture, dealt with the earlier events of the creation as well as early Jewish history, but in terms of writing Moses came later than Job. As to the time period, I would have no idea when Job was written, I'm sure there are theologians who would have some opinions as to the time. 

[cormac mac airt]

1 hour ago, Jarocal said:

Wasn't Abraham originally from Mesopotamia?

That's an unsubstantiated Biblical claim along with the fact that the singular Hebrew god, Yahweh, is wholly unattested in Mesopotamia/Sumer at any point in its ancient history which means it's just as made up as the unsupported existance of Abraham. 

cormac

[kmt_sesh]

2 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Dude looks like he's been huffing some good herb.

How do you think he comes up with his alien "theories"?

[kmt_sesh]

20 hours ago, ShadowSot said:

Oh wait, Found it.

The same goes for you as it did for Jarocal in that thread:

You will forget I ever wrote that. You will forget I ever wrote that!

[Jarocal]

1 hour ago, cormac mac airt said:

That's an unsubstantiated Biblical claim along with the fact that the singular Hebrew god, Yahweh, is wholly unattested in Mesopotamia/Sumer at any point in its ancient history which means it's just as made up as the unsupported existance of Abraham. 

cormac

Large portions of the biblical texts are unsubstantiated by archaeology. Timelines for canaanite cities they conquered after their 40 year walkabout post exodus don't show the destruction as and where expected.

That would not preclude an actual Abraham having wandered out of Mesopotamia  (with his gods) and forging a clan.  

[Jarocal]

3 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

The same goes for you as it did for Jarocal in that thread:

You will forget I ever wrote that. You will forget I ever wrote that!

That post has been bookmarked for latter use in a forthcoming thread where I show how Greenland used to be attached to Northern Africa at what is now the Eastern edge of the Mediterranean and has moved to it's current location.

[kmt_sesh]

2 minutes ago, Jarocal said:

That post has been bookmarked for latter use in a forthcoming thread where I show how Greenland used to be attached to Northern Africa at what is now the Eastern edge of the Mediterranean and has moved to it's current location.

By lifting its petticoats and...what's that word Harte used?...minced.?..across the Atlantic.

As for the other thing, once again: You will forget I ever wrote that. You will forget I ever wrote that! Otherwise, the Cabal will put man-eating frogs in your underwear.

[Harte]

10 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

By lifting its petticoats and...what's that word Harte used?...minced.?..across the Atlantic.

As for the other thing, once again: You will forget I ever wrote that. You will forget I ever wrote that! Otherwise, the Cabal will put man-eating frogs in your underwear.

Quote

verb (used without object), minced, mincing.

5.

to walk or move with short, affectedly dainty steps.

source

Harte

[Jarocal]

17 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

By lifting its petticoats and...what's that word Harte used?...minced.?..across the Atlantic.

As for the other thing, once again: You will forget I ever wrote that. You will forget I ever wrote that! Otherwise, the Cabal will put man-eating frogs in your underwear.

I  will try and stay on topic( but still will not forget your post).

[kmt_sesh]

4 minutes ago, Harte said:

source

Harte

So I was right. I thought that was the word. Dainty steps, you say. Well, I appear to be doing a lot of mincing these days. But I don't lift my petticoats.

1 minute ago, Jarocal said:

I  will try and stay on topic( but still will not forget your post).

 Very well. I capitulate...for now.

[kmt_sesh]

1 hour ago, Jarocal said:

Large portions of the biblical texts are unsubstantiated by archaeology. Timelines for canaanite cities they conquered after their 40 year walkabout post exodus don't show the destruction as and where expected.

That would not preclude an actual Abraham having wandered out of Mesopotamia  (with his gods) and forging a clan.  

I look at this in the way the ancient Greeks viewed their own history and oral traditions. The Greeks tended to wrap up complicated historical or social realities into the driving force of one person, when in reality probably dozens or hundreds were involved. And maybe over a protracted period of time. Hence they have their Agamemnon, Achilles, Herakles, and the like.

Most likely it's the same with the ancient Hebrews. I see it as possible that the figure they identified as Abraham was actually a collection of men, through a certain period of time, from one clan or more, who settled into Canaan under the guise of an emerging and different culture.

[cormac mac airt]

1 hour ago, Jarocal said:

Large portions of the biblical texts are unsubstantiated by archaeology. Timelines for canaanite cities they conquered after their 40 year walkabout post exodus don't show the destruction as and where expected.

That would not preclude an actual Abraham having wandered out of Mesopotamia  (with his gods) and forging a clan.  

It would also not preclude two pan-dimentional mice named Frankie and Benjy (who 'could' later be confused as God) from leading this alleged Abraham out of Mesopotamia either, needless to say I don't see that happening. I see the above as baseless speculation. 

cormac

[kmt_sesh]

5 hours ago, Jarocal said:

They call it "Thirsty Thursday" for a reason. And if your headed out on a Thursday, you may as well just keep going till Sunday evening.

Here it is Saturday and things are still way too quiet. I know Hanslune went off camping and got abducted by a bear as its new mate, and back to earth is lost somewhere in the Outback with one of those funny-tasseled hats. But where is everyone else?

[kmt_sesh]

2 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

It would also not preclude two pan-dimentional mice named Frankie and Benjy (who 'could' later be confused as God) from leading this alleged Abraham out of Mesopotamia either, needless to say I don't see that happening. I see the above as baseless speculation. 

cormac

You are so gonna be smote. I'm standing off to the side to stay clear of the lightning bolts.

[cormac mac airt]

3 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

You are so gonna be smote. I'm standing off to the side to stay clear of the lightning bolts.

Coward.  

cormac

[Gingitsune]

2 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

You will forget I ever wrote that. You will forget I ever wrote that!

More seriously:

1 hour ago, kmt_sesh said:

Most likely it's the same with the ancient Hebrews. I see it as possible that the figure they identified as Abraham was actually a collection of men, through a certain period of time, from one clan or more, who settled into Canaan under the guise of an emerging and different culture.

Probably from one clan. The Levites Jews, who are said to be direct male line descendants of Aaron, brother of Moses, who were themselves direct male line descendant of Abraham, matches the Muslim descendants of Ismael, the son of Abraham. And their Y-DNA are all haplogroup J1-Z18271.

From the FamilyTreeDNA's Quraysh & Bani Hashem Project
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Qurayishj1c3d/

Quote

 

Prophets Ibrahim (Abraham), Ismael (Ishmael), Ishac (Isaac), Haroon (Aaron), and Mohamad (PBUH&P) are considered major forefathers in the J1 phylogenetic tree. Today, many groups and families claim to be direct male-descendants of these respected forefathers but they find themselves positioned in distant genetic periods. Thus far, FGC8712 is the only SNP that maintain two parallel descending lines with: one line is 100% Ishamelite-Adnanite (~100 kits) and the other one is 100% Jacobite (~30 kits). The age of FGC8712 subclade is believed to be between 3400 and 4200 yBP (years before present).

Therefore, individuals who tested positive for this respected Y genetic marker (FGC8712) are encouraged to join the Quraysh & Bani Hashem project.

 

Although, it could be a coincidence, there are other families in Middle East which have that haplogroup but doesn't seem to be related to either families. But that both high profile Jews and Muslims happen to have the same haplogroup would mean there was probably a powerful clan who give birth to a lot of ruling families in the Middle East.

[Hanslune]

On 6/22/2017 at 7:56 PM, kmt_sesh said:

It's a bit too quiet lately for my liking, so I thought I'd start a new discussion. Given that this is kmt_sesh starting a thread, it is certain not to last long. And it is academically based (sorry, no aliens or levitation or Atlanteans, blah blah). I could've put this in the Archaeology forum, but it likely would've received three views and one "Cool" comment before fading away immediately. As it is there is some controversy surrounding this subject, and many folks in the Ancient Mysteries forum like to debate the Bible. So here I put it.

The following article concerns research being conducted by doctoral students from Tel Aviv University, under the supervision of Israel Finkelstein:

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/hebrew-bible/when-was-the-hebrew-bible-written/?mqsc=E3894298&utm_source=WhatCountsEmail&utm_medium=BHDDaily Newsletter&utm_campaign=ZE7A6VZ00

Apologies if there's a pop-up window. I use this organization's articles and archives for a lot of reading and have always enjoyed it, even if some of the material is slanted toward the religious view. And I like Finkelstein, as controversial as he tends to be. The gist of the article is, was the Bible written before the Babylonian Exile (586. BCE) or after? What are the pros and cons? The article covers both. I would say thrusting all of it before or after is overly simplistic and not historically realistic, but that's my thought. What do others think?

Now, let the boredom debate begin!

What I go away for three days and you do THIS?

[+DieChecker]

I'd conclude that it was possible for the Jewish Bible to have been written before the exile, since the stories doubtless existed, and there is evidence of people using writing. It seems to me that it was usually the priest class that would learn to read and write before even the military, but I don't know that to be the case here. It does seem to me that because the Levites provided the priests on a rotating schedule, that unless they wanted someone teaching something different, they'd have written down the stories so that they couldn't be changed from individual to individual. I'd also expect that such writings would be closely held inside the Temple, or in some Levite storage place. Which would have been utterly destroyed at the time of the destruction of the Temple. 

So.... We probably will never know.