Kenneth Arnold UFOs

[Dejarma]

21 minutes ago, Merc14 said:

I think another factor in the sudden plethora of sightings is the sudden appearance of many new kinds of new military jet aircraft that were radically different than anything Americans, or any people, had ever seen before.  Russia and America were manufacturing many models of new jet aircraft at an astonishing rate and people were probably misunderstanding these new aircraft.

yep, more than likely 

[lost_shaman]

37 minutes ago, Merc14 said:

I think another factor in the sudden plethora of sightings is the sudden appearance of many new kinds of new military jet aircraft that were radically different than anything Americans, or any people, had ever seen before.  Russia and America were manufacturing many models of new jet aircraft at an astonishing rate and people were probably misunderstanding these new aircraft.

I mean are you just brainstorming here or what? My Ears are still ringing from the last Mig I saw at the 75th Anniversary of Sheppard AFB. They were super loud and distinctively Jets and they just don't fit the descriptions of the "UFO" reports.

[Derek Willis]

10 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

The "ghost rockets" were never shown to be "rockets" of any kind, certainly not "swedish V1's". 

Stray V-1 missiles from Peenemunde began landing in southern Sweden as early as 1943:

https://dflund.se/~triad/rockets/indexen.html

During 1944 the Swedes (i.e Saab) began developing their own version of the V-1, known as the LT-07 (also known as the RB-310).

http://www.x-plane.org/home/urf/aviation/arbm03/arbm_0307.html

Development of the LT-07 began in 1944 and ended in 1949. 85 missiles were built and 193 test-flights were made (some of the missiles were flown three or four times). The official record is that the first test flight was made in May of 1949, i.e. at the end of the development period. That simply doesn't make sense. The LT-07 was obviously being tested prior to 1949. Those tests are what sparked off the Ghost Rocket sightings in 1946.

I have family connections in Hamar, a town on Lake Mjosa in Norway, and visit regularly. One of the the most prominent Ghost Rocket sightings allegedly occurred there in July of 1946. I say "allegedly" because it is well known that the first reports of this sighting were made in a Swedish newspaper. The story was "planted" by the Swedish government to give the impression that people all over Scandinavia were seeing strange aerial phenomena. This was to divert attention from the fact that the Swedes had secretly developed and tested a missile derived from the V-1.

Thereafter, the fantasists - all countries have them - began seeing "lights in the sky" and having their fifteen minutes of fame and their names in the newspapers.  

[Derek Willis]

10 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

His sighting has not been explained away to the point of being an example of explainable phenomena! You can't be serious.

And has his sighting been explained away to the point of being alien craft or some sort of plasma? No and no.

[Merc14]

There is a whole lot of things Mr. Arnold could've seen that day but the least likely is spacecraft from another star system.

[lost_shaman]

18 hours ago, Derek Willis said:

Development of the LT-07 began in 1944 and ended in 1949. 85 missiles were built and 193 test-flights were made (some of the missiles were flown three or four times). The official record is that the first test flight was made in May of 1949, i.e. at the end of the development period. That simply doesn't make sense. The LT-07 was obviously being tested prior to 1949. Those tests are what sparked off the Ghost Rocket sightings in 1946.

I have family connections in Hamar, a town on Lake Mjosa in Norway, and visit regularly. One of the the most prominent Ghost Rocket sightings allegedly occurred there in July of 1946. I say "allegedly" because it is well known that the first reports of this sighting were made in a Swedish newspaper. The story was "planted" by the Swedish government to give the impression that people all over Scandinavia were seeing strange aerial phenomena. This was to divert attention from the fact that the Swedes had secretly developed and tested a missile derived from the V-1.

Thereafter, the fantasists - all countries have them - began seeing "lights in the sky" and having their fifteen minutes of fame and their names in the newspapers.  

June 12th 1946, the Swedish Air Staff order all military personnel to report sightings of the phenomena to Headquarters including Military attaches to foreign countries. Because these are their Rockets right? 

July 15th the first of twelves meetings of a new "Ghost Rocket" committee meet consisting of all the Swedish top Military Brass (38 members) to discuss the Phenomena. Six days later the Wartime RADAR is reactivated to monitor the phenomena. Within days they have RADAR tracks of the phenomena. Guess what Derek? These are not Swedish V1's. I'm sorry that is your local folk lure, but it simply is not true. 

 

The Swedes clearly thought the "Ghost Rockets" were Russian.

There is absolutely no evidence of that either. The "Ghost Rocket" phenomena is basically no different than the UFO phenomena that appears in the U.S. in the spring of 1947.

I'm not talking about flocks of snow Geese Merc14.

Edited August 20, 2017 by lost_shaman

[lost_shaman]

18 hours ago, Derek Willis said:

And has his sighting been explained away to the point of being alien craft or some sort of plasma? No and no.

No one has said Alienz except you and Merc. Derek Willis and Merc14 are the only people in this thread so far that are fighting against imaginary Alienz. 

And yes "Plasma" is my guess if I'm forced to guess. I never said that I have proof for that "guess" as per that specific sighting. My guess does have the advantage of potentially explaining all the different UFO Flaps including the "Ghost Rockets" and the 1947 Flap in the U.S. along with numerous others over the decades since. 

 

 

[toast]

On 19.8.2017 at 1:00 AM, lost_shaman said:

It's a matter of historical fact, but there are some good sources that delve into this part of history. Ted Bloecher's book detailing an extensive but not exhaustive Newspaper search is a good start. Report on the UFO wave of 1947

Content of the linked page: aliens, animal mutilations, cryptozoology, ghosts, hoaxes, space anomalies, ufos. Also a shop, offering: "brain repair pack", fidget spinners, "long therm energy food supply", sunglasses, "Smith&Wesson tactical pen" and others. In addition, there is a donation button and sublinks to 2 fee-based apps.

Do you really think that this source is a source to "historical facts"? Its pure business, simply just that.

[lost_shaman]

29 minutes ago, toast said:

Content of the linked page: aliens, animal mutilations, cryptozoology, ghosts, hoaxes, space anomalies, ufos. Also a shop, offering: "brain repair pack", fidget spinners, "long therm energy food supply", sunglasses, "Smith&Wesson tactical pen" and others. In addition, there is a donation button and sublinks to 2 fee-based apps.

Do you really think that this source is a source to "historical facts"? Its pure business, simply just that.

I linked to the only page that hosts the book I was referencing for free. (Yes the whole Book! 190 pages!)

But you don't like who and what gets advertised?

I could absolutely give zero F's about what you think of advertising toast! If you have any questions about what I think of your opinion please PM me and I'll be very happy to clarify. 

Edited August 20, 2017 by lost_shaman

[Derek Willis]

6 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

June 12th 1946, the Swedish Air Staff order all military personnel to report sightings of the phenomena to Headquarters including Military attaches to foreign countries. Because these are their Rockets right? 

July 15th the first of twelves meetings of a new "Ghost Rocket" committee meet consisting of all the Swedish top Military Brass (38 members) to discuss the Phenomena. Six days later the Wartime RADAR is reactivated to monitor the phenomena. Within days they have RADAR tracks of the phenomena. Guess what Derek? These are not Swedish V1's. I'm sorry that is your local folk lure, but it simply is not true. 

The Swedes clearly thought the "Ghost Rockets" were Russian.

There is absolutely no evidence of that either. The "Ghost Rocket" phenomena is basically no different than the UFO phenomena that appears in the U.S. in the spring of 1947.

I'm not talking about flocks of snow Geese Merc14.

Have you ever considered that the Swedes were covering-up their missile development program? Have you ever considered they were sending false information to the Americans? You are obviously not familiar with what went on in Scandinavia during WW2. Denmark and Norway had been occupied and Sweden was - how shall I put it? - hedging their bets. They supplied iron ore, ball bearings, and other components to the Nazis. The engineering company Bofors was secretly part-owned by Krupp. At the same time, the Swedes were sending details of the crashed V-1 and V-2 missiles to the Allies.

Sweden was enriched through their dealings with the Nazis (something they don't like to talk about these days), and saw post-war opportunities of further enrichment by creating a missile industry. However, they wanted to continue with their stance of remaining "neutral" in any future conflicts, and having an independent weapons industry. So they didn't want the Allies to know about their missile program. When it was apparent something was going on - i.e. people were reporting having seen what was obviously the LT-07 "Swedish V-1" (which you obviously hadn't heard of) they pointed the finger at the Russians. Or more specifically, the Dagens Nyheter newspaper pointed the finger at the Russians. Back then the "DN" was a mouthpiece for the Liberal Party, which had joined the wartime coalition government led by the Social Democrats. Even more specifically, the DN published an article on May 26th 1946 in which they claimed the rockets were fired by the Russians from a base in the Baltic. This was almost two months before the date on the document you have provided. The document you provided, however, is good evidence that the Americans fell for the cover story and knew nothing about the Swedish missile program.   

I mentioned in my previous post the alleged sighting of a rocket crashing into Lake Mjosa: the date of the alleged crash was July 18th 1946. About ten years ago I talked to some old folks who were in their late-teens and early-twenties in 1946. When they were young they had all heard about the Ghost Rocket sightings elsewhere, but nothing had ever really happened around Lake Mjosa. However, they could clearly remember reporters from Oslo arriving and looking for the people who saw the rocket crash into the lake. There hadn't been a crash! The reporters from Oslo had gotten their information from the first reports of the alleged crash, which had appeared in a Swedish newspaper. Guess which newspaper it was. Yes, that's right, Dagens Nyheter.

The Swedish government mounted a skillful disinformation campaign and pulled the wool over everyone's eyes. By 1949 they had finished their basic research with the LT-07, and had begun developing the RB-315 ship-to-ship missile. They no longer needed to deny they had a missile program because they had developed the technology and now wanted to make money by selling missiles. Thereafter Saab, and also Volvo, became huge players in the international missile and jet fighter industry.

So, LS, carry on believing the Ghost Rockets were plasma or whatever. No they weren't: they were originally sightings of real rockets, and then the fantastical creations of over-imaginative minds fueled by a clever campaign of disinformation.    

[Derek Willis]

5 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

No one has said Alienz except you and Merc. Derek Willis and Merc14 are the only people in this thread so far that are fighting against imaginary Alienz. 

And yes "Plasma" is my guess if I'm forced to guess. I never said that I have proof for that "guess" as per that specific sighting. My guess does have the advantage of potentially explaining all the different UFO Flaps including the "Ghost Rockets" and the 1947 Flap in the U.S. along with numerous others over the decades since. 

 

 

What an odd statement. With regards to Kenneth Arnold I am "fighting" against him having seen anything other than something that can be rationally explained. It doesn't bother me whether people say he saw alien craft, plasma, or gigantic flying cowpats: he either saw geese, or jet aircraft, or nothing at all.

[Derek Willis]

9 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

Guess what Derek? These are not Swedish V1's. I'm sorry that is your local folk lure, but it simply is not true. 

Here is a quote from the Dagens Nyheter article of May 26th 1946, which you can find at Project 1947.

The observations made by the inhabitants of Landscrona, namely that the sparks from the tail come at intervals, agrees with the V-1 bomb's manner of operation.  It is true that the witnesses have given the length of the projectiles now seen as considerably less than the V-1 bomb's 6-7 metres but it is easy to err on such points.

The length of V-1 missiles was actually 7.9 meters. The length of the LT-07 was 4.7 meters. Wouldn't you agree this is "considerably less" than the V-1? Hence, I would say it is beyond doubt the projectile seen was an LT-07. Of course, the newspaper - being a government mouthpiece - claimed the projectile was Russian. 

http://www.project1947.com/gr/grchron1.htm

[Merc14]

15 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

No one has said Alienz except you and Merc. Derek Willis and Merc14 are the only people in this thread so far that are fighting against imaginary Alienz. 

Really?  The opening two opening posts on this thread alludes to flying saucers and the following one mentions Bruce Maccabee a famous purveyor of little green men.  That is just the first few posts, should I continue?

Quote

 

And yes "Plasma" is my guess if I'm forced to guess. I never said that I have proof for that "guess" as per that specific sighting. My guess does have the advantage of potentially explaining all the different UFO Flaps including the "Ghost Rockets" and the 1947 Flap in the U.S. along with numerous others over the decades since. 

 

So your big suggestion is 9 separate plasma balls flying in formation?  Wow, that would be a first.  

12 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

I linked to the only page that hosts the book I was referencing for free. (Yes the whole Book! 190 pages!)

But you don't like who and what gets advertised?

I could absolutely give zero F's about what you think of advertising toast! If you have any questions about what I think of your opinion please PM me and I'll be very happy to clarify. 

Getting a bit testy there, LS aren't we?  

Edited August 20, 2017 by Merc14

[lost_shaman]

10 hours ago, Derek Willis said:

Have you ever considered that the Swedes were covering-up their missile development program?

I'll consider it if you can evidence that. 

 

10 hours ago, Derek Willis said:

When it was apparent something was going on - i.e. people were reporting having seen what was obviously the LT-07 "Swedish V-1" (which you obviously hadn't heard of) they pointed the finger at the Russians. Or more specifically, the Dagens Nyheter newspaper pointed the finger at the Russians. Back then the "DN" was a mouthpiece for the Liberal Party, which had joined the wartime coalition government led by the Social Democrats. Even more specifically, the DN published an article on May 26th 1946 in which they claimed the rockets were fired by the Russians from a base in the Baltic. This was almost two months before the date on the document you have provided. The document you provided, however, is good evidence that the Americans fell for the cover story and knew nothing about the Swedish missile program.   

Now you are just making things up. It's clear that the Swedes had not tested 300 -400 rockets at that time, yet these were around the number of sightings. The Swedes were just as baffled by the sightings as everyone else, this is why they formed a committee of Top Brass and reactivated their wartime RADAR to track the GR's. 

 

11 hours ago, Derek Willis said:

I mentioned in my previous post the alleged sighting of a rocket crashing into Lake Mjosa: the date of the alleged crash was July 18th 1946. About ten years ago I talked to some old folks who were in their late-teens and early-twenties in 1946. When they were young they had all heard about the Ghost Rocket sightings elsewhere, but nothing had ever really happened around Lake Mjosa. However, they could clearly remember reporters from Oslo arriving and looking for the people who saw the rocket crash into the lake. There hadn't been a crash! The reporters from Oslo had gotten their information from the first reports of the alleged crash, which had appeared in a Swedish newspaper. Guess which newspaper it was. Yes, that's right, Dagens Nyheter.

 

I note that the main Oslo paper reported such a sighting on the 19th. "Two Rockets down in lake Mjosa? Seen by several people." Aftenposten July 19, 1946. Sounds like they probably found people that saw something. That doesn't sound like the Headline you would use if it was hearsay you couldn't confirm from a competing Newspaper from Sweden. 

 

12 hours ago, Derek Willis said:

The Swedish government mounted a skillful disinformation campaign and pulled the wool over everyone's eyes.

I don't deny that there could have been some disinformation here and there (I could give my own example), but that does not then also automatically mean such a claim is true. So you need to get much more serious in attempting to evidence your claim here. On the other hand there is much information showing the Swedes being as perplexed as anyone. Really you would need show some evidence of this vast conspiracy and I just don't see that. 

[lost_shaman]

2 hours ago, Merc14 said:

So your big suggestion is 9 separate plasma balls flying in formation?  Wow, that would be a first.  

There have been similar type formations and clusters seen in Hessdalen for example so not a first. 

Edited August 21, 2017 by lost_shaman

[lost_shaman]

11 hours ago, Derek Willis said:

The length of V-1 missiles was actually 7.9 meters. The length of the LT-07 was 4.7 meters. Wouldn't you agree this is "considerably less" than the V-1? Hence, I would say it is beyond doubt the projectile seen was an LT-07. Of course, the newspaper - being a government mouthpiece - claimed the projectile was Russian. 

http://www.project1947.com/gr/grchron1.htm

x is greater than y, so y is  "considerably less" than x. Hence, y =  LT-07 ... wait that ... I don't think that's how it works Derek Willis. 

[lost_shaman]

 

13 hours ago, Derek Willis said:

I would say it is beyond doubt the projectile seen was an LT-07.

What impresses you the most? Is is the 10.5 mile range? 

They must have been trucking those 4.7 meter things all over Scandinavia! 

[Derek Willis]

9 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

I'll consider it if you can evidence that. 

 

Now you are just making things up. It's clear that the Swedes had not tested 300 -400 rockets at that time, yet these were around the number of sightings. The Swedes were just as baffled by the sightings as everyone else, this is why they formed a committee of Top Brass and reactivated their wartime RADAR to track the GR's. 

 

I note that the main Oslo paper reported such a sighting on the 19th. "Two Rockets down in lake Mjosa? Seen by several people." Aftenposten July 19, 1946. Sounds like they probably found people that saw something. That doesn't sound like the Headline you would use if it was hearsay you couldn't confirm from a competing Newspaper from Sweden. 

 

I don't deny that there could have been some disinformation here and there (I could give my own example), but that does not then also automatically mean such a claim is true. So you need to get much more serious in attempting to evidence your claim here. On the other hand there is much information showing the Swedes being as perplexed as anyone. Really you would need show some evidence of this vast conspiracy and I just don't see that. 

Have you ever considered that more than one person might have seen any given LT-07 flight, and hence the (alleged) large number of sightings?

But in any case, we all know that fantasists like to get on the bandwagon and pretend they saw something to gain a little bit of local celebrity.

Your faith in newspaper reporters is touchingly naive. They are obviously the most honest people in the world who would never make anything up to sell newspapers. I would rather believe, in the case of Lake Mjosa, the testimony of real people who were there at the time. And your faith in governments is equally touchingly naive. They too always tell the truth, don't they?

As an aside, do you think a headline with a question mark such as the one you quote - "Two rockets down in Lake Mjosa?" - is a statement of fact? Or is it a bit of speculative mischief making? If that is what you are basing your conviction on with regards to the alleged event at Mjosa, it's hardly resting on a firm foundation.

The bottom line is, the Swedes had a missile program that they wanted to keep hidden. It is interesting how - apart from one source I can find - the "investigations" over the years into the Ghost Rockets don't mention the Swedish missile program that began in 1944. That is because until relatively recently it wasn't generally known about. Now that it is, it is obviously the cause of the early sightings, and the rest may have had a lot to do with aquavit!

Edit:

As you are fond of quoting the Aftenposten newspaper, I note you neglected to mention the articles of July 15 and 16 of 1946. On the 15th sightings of a "Ghost Plane" and mysterious lights were recorded near Olso. The following day the pilot of the plane responsible for the sightings contacted the newspaper to explain how he had been testing his landing lights. Not much of a mystery there.

http://www.project1947.com/fig/1946a.htm

 

Edited August 21, 2017 by Derek Willis

[Derek Willis]

8 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

x is greater than y, so y is  "considerably less" than x. Hence, y =  LT-07 ... wait that ... I don't think that's how it works Derek Willis. 

If people reported seeing a winged missile considerably shorter than the V-1 and spurting fire from its tail, and a missile fitting that description was actually being tested, then it is not unreasonable to say they saw the missile.

[Derek Willis]

7 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

 

What impresses you the most? Is is the 10.5 mile range? 

They must have been trucking those 4.7 meter things all over Scandinavia! 

But LS, you have already provided an explanation for this. The people of Scandinavia had the same superhuman visual acuity as Kenneth Arnold! Didn't you say it is possible to see the two-inch cables on the Golden Gate Bridge from a distance of four miles. On that basis the LT-07 could have been seen from a distance of 400 miles! 

But joking apart. We all know how UFO "flaps" work. One or more people actually see something, and other people jump on the bandwagon. And of course, some people will have seen weather balloons or meteors or whatever, and it all gets lumped together to create something like the Ghost Rockets.  

Edited August 21, 2017 by Derek Willis

[Derek Willis]

10 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

Now you are just making things up.

What are you saying I am making up?

[quillius]

it would seem that the 'speed' is what made Arnold change his mind from Geese to 'jets'.

I know we  then move to how could he establish speed without knowing size or distance...

http://ufoupdateslist.com/1999/mar/m28-011.shtml

Quote

I, at first, thought they were geese because it flew like geese, but it was going so fast that I immediately changed my mind and decided it was a bunch of new jet planes in formation.

 

[quillius]

not sure if this is possible, but with all you brainy ***** on the thread could someone calculate approximately how close the objects would have need to have been if they were birds, using his calculations?

 

Quote

They didn't fly in a conventional formation that's taught in our army, they seemed to kind of weave in and out right above the mountaintops, and I would say that they even went down into the canyons in several instances, oh, probably a hundred feet, but I could see them against the snow, of course, on Mt. Rainier and against the snow on Mt. Adams as they were flashing, and against a high ridge that happens to lay in between Mt. Rainier and Mt. Adams. But when I observed the tail end of the last one passing Mt. Adams, and I was at an angle near Mt. Rainier from it, but I looked at my watch and it showed one minute and 42 seconds. Well, I felt that was pretty fast and I didn't stop to think what the distance was between the two mountains. Well, I landed at Yakima, Washington, and Al Baxter was there to greet me and he said ...[unintelligible]... and, he told me, I guess I better change my brand, but he kind of gave me a mysterious sort of a look that maybe I had seen something, he didn't know, and well, I just kind of forgot it then, until I got down to Pendleton and I began looking at my map and taking measurements on it and the best calculation I could figure out, now even in spite of error, would be around 1200 miles an hour, because making the distance from Mt. Rainier to Mt. Adams, in, we'll say approximately two minutes, it's almost, well, it'd be around 25 miles per minute.

 

[Derek Willis]

1 minute ago, quillius said:

it would seem that the 'speed' is what made Arnold change his mind from Geese to 'jets'.

I know we  then move to how could he establish speed without knowing size or distance...

http://ufoupdateslist.com/1999/mar/m28-011.shtml

 

I, at first, thought the man across the road was my grandfather, but he was moving so fast I immediately changed my mind and decided it was Usain Bolt! 

[quillius]

Just now, Derek Willis said:

I, at first, thought the man across the road was my grandfather, but he was moving so fast I immediately changed my mind and decided it was Usain Bolt! 

dont think that quite works Derek, a- because you have established it was a man. b- the difference between a normal man running V UB is not comparable to the difference between jets and birds!

that is of course assuming you were not being sarcastic