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stevewinn

HMSQueen Elizabeth to sail for the first time

144 posts in this topic

11 hours ago, stevewinn said:

I'd say yes, exceeds Ocean, in endurance and speed, Ocean is slow at 18knots compared to 25knots, of the QE class - 'Lizzie was clocked at 28.2knots on sea trials. range wise Ocean 8,000nm. QE class 10,000. they have planned for the QE class to cover Oceans capability because HMS Prince of Wales has been configured internally to hold more Marines and their equipment. 'Lizzie' with be modified the same in her first refit.

HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales will take over the role of deploying amphibious forces when HMS Ocean is decommissioned in 2018. Defence procurement minister Philip Dunne said each ship would house a force of 900 marines and aviation personnel – 210 more than Ocean.

 

Hmm... one thought occured to me. HMS Ocean had the ability to launch landing craft from its rear ramp and side-mounted davits. I don't suppose the QE has those facilities ? So it would need to dock in order to offload its marines and equipment ? Or ferry them out in helicopters ?

Well, you wouldn't want to dock your aircraft carrier in a conflict zone. Imagine the old HMS Hermes docked in San Carlos sound ?

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51 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Hmm... one thought occured to me. HMS Ocean had the ability to launch landing craft from its rear ramp and side-mounted davits. I don't suppose the QE has those facilities ? So it would need to dock in order to offload its marines and equipment ? Or ferry them out in helicopters ?

That's what helicopters are for. You wouldn't expect a carrier to carry heavy vehicles and armour, it'd be part of an amphibious task group for that kind of job.

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3 hours ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

That's what helicopters are for. You wouldn't expect a carrier to carry heavy vehicles and armour, it'd be part of an amphibious task group for that kind of job.

Weeeell.... yes... but... HMS Ocean WAS our main amphibious assault platform, and that is being sold off. We are only left with Albion and Bulwark, which are nice but MUCH smaller. Can Lizzie really do the same job ?

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1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

Weeeell.... yes... but... HMS Ocean WAS our main amphibious assault platform, and that is being sold off. We are only left with Albion and Bulwark, which are nice but MUCH smaller. Can Lizzie really do the same job ?

There's the Bay class, which are designed for just that job. Bay-class landing ship

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Oooh yes.. they DO look rather handy, don't they ?

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26 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Oooh yes.. they DO look rather handy, don't they ?

Would've been even more so if the idiotic Cameron government hadn't sold one of them, at a no doubt bargain price, to Australia. 

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8 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Hmm... one thought occured to me. HMS Ocean had the ability to launch landing craft from its rear ramp and side-mounted davits. I don't suppose the QE has those facilities ? So it would need to dock in order to offload its marines and equipment ? Or ferry them out in helicopters ?

Well, you wouldn't want to dock your aircraft carrier in a conflict zone. Imagine the old HMS Hermes docked in San Carlos sound ?

that is a area were HMS Ocean does trump the carrier the ability to carry military vehicles. but you'd expect that.

As MvD as pointed out the Bay Class along with Albion Class should cover those bases. as they can move the heavier vehicles etc...

We have to remember HMS Ocean was built on the cheap and fast to fill a gap because of the need or lessons learned in deployment to the Adriatic some years earlier when RFA Argus was used in the role HMS Ocean would later fill.

The New Carrier's allow for the airborne deployment of forces, I read the QE Class has six landing spots for Chinook, each with a 300 mile range. they could be deployed from the carrier many miles off shore. while the Bay Class, and Albion Class deploy much closer to shore. - Have to remember The Type 45's and future ships such as the Type 26 can land a Chinook so could act as Lily pads for the Chinook's.

The mix of assets we have and plan to have makes for a flexible force. even though it would make sense for Ocean replacement i'd much rather we increase escort numbers. the 8 Type 26's need increasing to 16 minimum. seeing that there is potential that Australia and Canada will select the type 26 as their new Frigate.

 

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I read an interesting article about HMS Ocean. Or it might have been the third Bay Class ship that we sold to Australia. 

Either way, the sale wasn't down to outright shortage of money per se . It was down to the Navy not having enough trained sailors to operate THAT ship, PLUS the new aircraft carrier. Begging the question... what happens when Dukie is commissioned ? Will they have acquired more trained sailors by then, or will we lose ANOTHER big ship ? 

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1 hour ago, stevewinn said:

that is a area were HMS Ocean does trump the carrier the ability to carry military vehicles. but you'd expect that.

As MvD as pointed out the Bay Class along with Albion Class should cover those bases. as they can move the heavier vehicles etc...

We have to remember HMS Ocean was built on the cheap and fast to fill a gap because of the need or lessons learned in deployment to the Adriatic some years earlier when RFA Argus was used in the role HMS Ocean would later fill.

The New Carrier's allow for the airborne deployment of forces, I read the QE Class has six landing spots for Chinook, each with a 300 mile range. they could be deployed from the carrier many miles off shore. while the Bay Class, and Albion Class deploy much closer to shore. - Have to remember The Type 45's and future ships such as the Type 26 can land a Chinook so could act as Lily pads for the Chinook's.

The mix of assets we have and plan to have makes for a flexible force. even though it would make sense for Ocean replacement i'd much rather we increase escort numbers. the 8 Type 26's need increasing to 16 minimum. seeing that there is potential that Australia and Canada will select the type 26 as their new Frigate.

 

They are looking at plans to modify the Prince of Wales for amphibious landings and troop deployment.  It is all up in the air at the moment as one minute we were going to sell the carrier, the next mothball it and now looks like it will be commissioned.

The recommendation was it serves its first few years as an aircraft carrier and will operate when Big Lizzie is not at sea.  Then on its refit be transformed and carry around 10 F35B's and the the lower hangars converted for helicopter and Amphibious landing deployment.

Not sure it will happen but a great idea.

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7 minutes ago, skookum said:

They are looking at plans to modify the Prince of Wales for amphibious landings and troop deployment.  It is all up in the air at the moment as one minute we were going to sell the carrier, the next mothball it and now looks like it will be commissioned.

The recommendation was it serves its first few years as an aircraft carrier and will operate when Big Lizzie is not at sea.  Then on its refit be transformed and carry around 10 F35B's and the the lower hangars converted for helicopter and Amphibious landing deployment.

Not sure it will happen but a great idea.

That IS an interesting concept, slookum. 

A sort of HMS Ocean with 10 F35B's... that would be.... quite a powerful combination. 

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8 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

That IS an interesting concept, slookum. 

A sort of HMS Ocean with 10 F35B's... that would be.... quite a powerful combination. 

Sadly 10 years to late.  When they wanted to cancel the carrier and the cost was more than building it  is when the plans should have been put forward and negotiated.  

Obviously it would of incurred major costs but it will anyway in the future one way or another.  

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Posted (edited)

22 hours ago, skookum said:

Visited Portsmouth today and what an awesome sight.

 

Sadly you cannot get close enough to appreciate the scale an the angle is bad.  But it's shear size looms as you get closer.  Very impressive.

qe2.jpg

Great photo, does the harbour tour go close to her?

1 hour ago, skookum said:

They are looking at plans to modify the Prince of Wales for amphibious landings and troop deployment.  It is all up in the air at the moment as one minute we were going to sell the carrier, the next mothball it and now looks like it will be commissioned.

The recommendation was it serves its first few years as an aircraft carrier and will operate when Big Lizzie is not at sea.  Then on its refit be transformed and carry around 10 F35B's and the the lower hangars converted for helicopter and Amphibious landing deployment.

Not sure it will happen but a great idea.

Touched on this on post #124. on PofW having been already converted to carry more marines and their equipment compared to QE. I hope the ambition for amphibious capability ends with the rotary element. a terrible idea if it expands to seaborne Landing craft.

The 2015 Defence review was to operate both Carriers' that hasn't changed and both carriers have been budgeted for in the Navy accounts. So, no doubt both will be commissioned.

There is no way on a wider point either of our Carriers' are going to be mothballed or sold off, The threat from the far east is growing, China opened its first overseas Naval base in Djibouti (right in the Gulf of Aden) couple this with the building and launch of its Second but first domestic built Carrier. 

im off on a tangent here but, :D

The UK's National Ship building programme or strategy is to be released by the Government in the not to distant future, there is a sense of feeling after two land campaigns in Afghanistan/Iraq and the boosting of the Army for those conflicts - that a switch back to the Navy will now follow, and that as always been our strength being a Island nation we've never had to maintain a big land army for defence allowing us to take a far greater advantage of having a larger Navy. 

We need to rapidly increase the surface combatants - Destroyers, Frigates in the range of 20 / 25 ships for the challengers we face. We need the ability to blockade a country such as China. I'd like to see 18 Type 26's  6 Type 45's - possibly build batch 3&4 of six further Type 45's and increase our SSN's Astutes' from 7 to 12.

All sounds like a Admiral in the bath, but a force of 18 Type 26's: 12 Type 45's: 12 Astute SSN's = 42 major ships/boats.

The Size of the Type 26 is more Destroyer than frigate.

hms-glasgow-7.jpg?auto=format,compress&f

 

 

Edited by stevewinn
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On 30/08/2017 at 4:35 AM, stevewinn said:

Great photo, does the harbour tour go close to her?

Touched on this on post #124. on PofW having been already converted to carry more marines and their equipment compared to QE. I hope the ambition for amphibious capability ends with the rotary element. a terrible idea if it expands to seaborne Landing craft.

The 2015 Defence review was to operate both Carriers' that hasn't changed and both carriers have been budgeted for in the Navy accounts. So, no doubt both will be commissioned.

There is no way on a wider point either of our Carriers' are going to be mothballed or sold off, The threat from the far east is growing, China opened its first overseas Naval base in Djibouti (right in the Gulf of Aden) couple this with the building and launch of its Second but first domestic built Carrier. 

im off on a tangent here but, :D

The UK's National Ship building programme or strategy is to be released by the Government in the not to distant future, there is a sense of feeling after two land campaigns in Afghanistan/Iraq and the boosting of the Army for those conflicts - that a switch back to the Navy will now follow, and that as always been our strength being a Island nation we've never had to maintain a big land army for defence allowing us to take a far greater advantage of having a larger Navy. 

We need to rapidly increase the surface combatants - Destroyers, Frigates in the range of 20 / 25 ships for the challengers we face. We need the ability to blockade a country such as China. I'd like to see 18 Type 26's  6 Type 45's - possibly build batch 3&4 of six further Type 45's and increase our SSN's Astutes' from 7 to 12.

All sounds like a Admiral in the bath, but a force of 18 Type 26's: 12 Type 45's: 12 Astute SSN's = 42 major ships/boats.

The Size of the Type 26 is more Destroyer than frigate.

hms-glasgow-7.jpg?auto=format,compress&f

 

 

Type 26 is a massive frigate. Closer to a destroyer. Heavily armed too. 

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On 31/08/2017 at 10:20 PM, Captain Risky said:

Type 26 is a massive frigate. Closer to a destroyer. Heavily armed too. 

Are the Aussies going to purchase the worlds best ASW frigate? what's the feeling in the land downunder. you keep buying the Spanish Rubbish/design. your politicians do know when things start to go from flash to bang the Spanish designed vessels are going to be the best artificial reef's. 

 

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7 hours ago, stevewinn said:

Are the Aussies going to purchase the worlds best ASW frigate? what's the feeling in the land downunder. you keep buying the Spanish Rubbish/design. your politicians do know when things start to go from flash to bang the Spanish designed vessels are going to be the best artificial reef's. 

 

it would certainly seem like the best frigate. Not sure its fair to describe it as such since its closer to a destroyer in size and capabilities. but lets be realistic, all modern western frigates can draw from the same engines, weapons systems, radar and electronics producers. Customising battle ships is easier enough. its the survivability of the boat and mission layout that you real shop purchase. we can purchase the Spanish design and just as easily purchase the same off the shelf radar, engines and weapons systems  that the type 26 frigate has. but credit were credit is due... its a handsome ship that will make others gaze with envy and awe. 

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What is this "Spanish rubbish" that Steve is so insulting about? Do you mean the Canberra class? What do they have to do with what frigate design Australia ought to choose, as they're helicopter carriers to support amphibious assaults. It says here that 

  • nine Future Frigates to replace the Anzac-class frigates (possibly up to 7,000 tons and equipped with cruise missiles).[30] RAN expects to let 6 countries tender for $30 billion in 2016, and make a selection in 2018. Ships are to be built in Australia.[31]

and I suppose Spain might be one of those bidding.  (you're not on a commission to sell the Type 26 are you, Steve?)

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Posted (edited)

11 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

it would certainly seem like the best frigate. Not sure its fair to describe it as such since its closer to a destroyer in size and capabilities. but lets be realistic, all modern western frigates can draw from the same engines, weapons systems, radar and electronics producers. Customising battle ships is easier enough. its the survivability of the boat and mission layout that you real shop purchase. we can purchase the Spanish design and just as easily purchase the same off the shelf radar, engines and weapons systems  that the type 26 frigate has. but credit were credit is due... its a handsome ship that will make others gaze with envy and awe. 

you hit the nail on the head with survivability, the acoustic signature, the quietness of the hull, and how all the internals are mounted to that effect, that's the difference between the two designs. not forgetting the customisable mission bay. The Spanish have ships with a acoustic signature like a bag of spanners in a washing machine.

2 hours ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

What is this "Spanish rubbish" that Steve is so insulting about? Do you mean the Canberra class? What do they have to do with what frigate design Australia ought to choose, as they're helicopter carriers to support amphibious assaults. It says here that 

  • nine Future Frigates to replace the Anzac-class frigates (possibly up to 7,000 tons and equipped with cruise missiles).[30] RAN expects to let 6 countries tender for $30 billion in 2016, and make a selection in 2018. Ships are to be built in Australia.[31]

and I suppose Spain might be one of those bidding.  (you're not on a commission to sell the Type 26 are you, Steve?)

How is it insulting to say the Spanish offering is inferior in design? I was thinking more of their Hobart Class, to be honest the Canberra Class is a quality asset, If the Aussie's integrate the F35B onto the class they'll be stepping it up a level. The skill of the Aussie matelots will cover for any shortcomings in the designs,

On commission, no, but the more that are built under licence by say Australia and Canada the more reduced the cost for us will be. allowing us to possibly build more than a measly 8 hulls and more like 15.

Edited by stevewinn
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The Naming ceremony as taken place of the Second in Class HMS Prince of Wales.

Second aircraft carrier HMS Prince of Wales named by Duchess of Rothesay

_97719256_aircraftcarriernaming-skypool_

_97718852_aircraftcarriernaming-skypool_

The second of the UK's new generation of aircraft carriers, HMS Prince of Wales, has been officially named in a ceremony at Rosyth Naval Dockyard. HMS Prince of Wales was completed 25% faster due to lessons learned by the Construction of HMS Queen Elizabeth. 

_97718856_aircraftcarriernaming-skypool_

_97719253_aircraftcarriernaming-skypool_

HMS Prince of Wales is reportedly 3,000 tonnes more then HMS Q.E and will start sea trials in 2019. after 18th month fitting out. 

Ian Groom, the captain of the HMS Prince of Wales, said the second aircraft carrier would allow the UK to always have a carrier available.

He said: "These ships are designed specifically to deliver carrier strike, the F35 jets, but they have a hugely flexible range of other activities right the way from delivering humanitarian aid to delivering hard military power."

Captain Groom insisted that there was still a need for aircraft carriers despite security concerns focusing on terrorism.

He said: "These ships can be placed anywhere in the world, they can travel 500 miles a day.

"We can put a mixture of assets whether it is the full 36 jets and four helicopters or a range of other assets but what they really provide is that political choice, to act independently or with our partner nations. They have got huge value even in today's age."

At the moment, the ship has about 200 crew in Rosyth. This will be raised to 700 as it nears sea trials.

It will be ready for front-line duties around the world from 2023.

_97709700_hmsprinceofwales.jpg

Once floated out Captain Moorhouse will take over command.

HMS%20Prince%20of%20Wales%20Captian.jpg?

 

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