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Kim Jong Un Fires Off Another Missile.


Astra.

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Just now, RoofGardener said:

I'm afraid I disagree, Farmer77. Kim Jong un is a narcissist... he genuinly thinks he is the centre of the universe. If he had an atom bomb, and the ability to deploy it, then he would immediately use it for political leverage, and might easily actually use it full stop !

I think he believes in his own military, and in their invulnerability. A harsh slap might easily bring him back to Planet Earth. 

The experts seem to believe that all Kim is doing is trying to ensure his regime's survival. 

I do see the logic in that thought process but Im not 100% sold on it. I still dont think an offensive attack is the right thing to do however. 

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Just now, RoofGardener said:

If WE don't attack, then - in a few years - Kim WILL ! :( 

See I dont think I buy that either. 

When you look past the headlines all of Kim's "we will nuke the US" rhetoric was preceded by "if we are attacked". That's not really a threat nor is it that nutty of a position. 

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i think Trump and Kim could make good friends and understand each other. Just not sure what the outcome from that would be ... hopefully not a new Trump 

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Well, how about his continous probes into SK by submarine, and his shelling of SK islands ? 

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1 minute ago, RoofGardener said:

Well, how about his continous probes into SK by submarine, and his shelling of SK islands ? 

Well how about the US's continuous probes into Syria and our arming of rebels in Ukraine? Clearly we are planning on nuking Russia right? No of course not because we know we'd get nuked off the map in the process. 

IDK im not going to make the argument that the man is sane but I also don't fully buy all the war drum banging rhetoric either. 

 

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1 minute ago, Farmer77 said:

Well how about the US's continuous probes into Syria and our arming of rebels in Ukraine? Clearly we are planning on nuking Russia right? No of course not because we know we'd get nuked off the map in the process. 

IDK im not going to make the argument that the man is sane but I also don't fully buy all the war drum banging rhetoric either. 

 

ROFL... "whataboutism" :P 

The two are not comparable; the US got involved militarily in Syria to oppose ISIS. And it was Russia that invaded Ukraine. 

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Just now, RoofGardener said:

The two are not comparable; the US got involved militarily in Syria to oppose ISIS.

No they didnt.

ISIS didnt exist in Syria when the US got involved. We got involved to assist "rebels" in enacting regime change thereby creating the vacuum which ISIS rushed in to fill. 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

No they didnt.

ISIS didnt exist in Syria when the US got involved. We got involved to assist "rebels" in enacting regime change thereby creating the vacuum which ISIS rushed in to fill. 

 

 

 

Truly ? I was under the impression that the US only supplied non-military aid to the rebels, and only got involved "on the ground" when ISIS spilled over from Iraq into Syria ? 

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Just now, RoofGardener said:

Truly ? I was under the impression that the US only supplied non-military aid to the rebels, and only got involved "on the ground" when ISIS spilled over from Iraq into Syria ? 

They supplied non lethal military gear right off the bat , then slowly that grew into arms and training. They added more troops and heavier weaponry as the ISIS threat spread but by then the rebels were so fractured we just ended up arming ISIS. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

What if it doesnt work though?  If after all of that which you described Kim's nuclear capabilities are in tact and he is still in power what do we do then? Are you willing to send your children to fight an offensive war in a nation which hasnt harmed the US? 

It seems to me that an offensive strike is the most likely way to ensure an atomic bomb goes off. 

Fat Kim isnt a muslim, I do believe mutually assured destruction will work with him. 

He is about survival, period.  He is convinced we want him gone.  If he decides, some fine day that we are coming (whether true or not) he may give the order to sucker punch the world with his nukes.  While I respect your impulse to not unnecessarily kill and maim millions of people in the region, I think you discount the element of his ability to be unpredictable.  The pattern of his grandfather and father has been to stir panic and hold his hand out for concessions.  So far this has worked well.  Once he has time to accumulate precise, deliverable fusion weapons, what is to stop him from blackmailing the West for whatever he wants?  Appeasement has NEVER worked, Farmer.  You are well read enough to know the truth of this.  If the allies in WWII had been proactive and had attacked Germany and Japan in the mid 30's tens of millions of people would have survived and the world would be a very different place today.  Why didn't they?  A sense of fair play and basic morality not to strike without irrefutable evidence of Hitler and Tojo's intentions.  Our humanity cost us about 50 million dead.  There is REAL evil in this world.  There always has been and almost always will be because WE, as a species are evil in that we are governed by fear, lust, and greed.

Our base nature is about the flesh we were born into.  We have learned to struggle against each other so we can survive.  Trusting others is not our base state.  Even though we've proven that the best outcome for our species has always followed the times when we had the strength of will to TRUST and cooperate, the lesson never really "takes".  The Biblical predictions make total sense in today's world.  If an entity that was "outside" of the time we experience, saw our future, is it more likely that we would suddenly trust and lay down our weapons, or would we probably, someday attempt to destroy those unlike us?  Logic tells us that we will likely continue to behave as our ancestors have done.  The difference today is that science has provided weapons that can erase all life from the planet.

Christ spoke of the times we live in today. "

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened.

When Matthew wrote those words there was no weaponry that could have made this prediction possible.  Today, Putin, Xi or Trump could make a decision that led to a general release of nukes.  The human race would not die from frank casualties but the world would be poisoned and the climate truly changed such that crops wouldn't grow for years.  There are even scriptures that describe the "plague" with which Israel's enemies must be killed.  Read Zecharia 14: 11 - 

 

2Now thiswill be the plague with which the LORD will strike allthe peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth. 

While it is not conclusive that this describes nuclear vaporization, the resemblance is eerie.  

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, and then said:

He is about survival, period.  He is convinced we want him gone.  If he decides, some fine day that we are coming (whether true or not) he may give the order to sucker punch the world with his nukes.

IDK man couldnt the same be said about every nuclear nation? They too would surely push the big red button if they thought we were coming. 

5 minutes ago, and then said:

While I respect your impulse to not unnecessarily kill and maim millions of people in the region, I think you discount the element of his ability to be unpredictable.

I could be , thats kinda why I havent been really dogmatic about the issue. I will say at this point (and im sure this is really gonna p*** you off) my kids will be pulling a Trump and doing everything possible to not go and fight in the same place where their great grandfather experienced the horrors of war. That of course all changes if there is an attack on us. 

7 minutes ago, and then said:

 Appeasement has NEVER worked, Farmer.  You are well read enough to know the truth of this.  If the allies in WWII had been proactive and had attacked Germany and Japan in the mid 30's tens of millions of people would have survived and the world would be a very different place today.  Why didn't they?  A sense of fair play and basic morality not to strike without irrefutable evidence of Hitler and Tojo's intentions.  Our humanity cost us about 50 million dead.  There is REAL evil in this world.  There always has been and almost always will be because WE, as a species are evil in that we are governed by fear, lust, and greed.

Im not sure that just pulling up our stakes, heading home and ignoring the hermit kingdom is exactly appeasement. 

This is a really tough issue, IMO and you make really good points.

At some point survival becomes pointless if we give up our humanity and our identity as a nation, but at what cost to keep that humanity? 

 

 

 

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21 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

but at what cost to keep that humanity? 

Every nation's people have to decide that for themselves.  For me, the bottom line is that I want my child to live in a world where she is free to pursue her dreams and to live, love and grow old in peace.  Maybe that's too much to expect but NONE of it will be possible if men like this have weapons to hold us hostage.  Remember, there is a time for everything under heaven.  That includes defensive war.

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Quote

More countries are joining the move to scale back diplomatic ties with North Korea in response to its sixth nuclear test, Sept. 3.

On Monday, Spain asked the North Korean ambassador in Madrid to leave the country by the end of September, the first European country to expel a North Korean diplomatic envoy.

The move follows similar steps by Mexico, Peru and Kuwait earlier this month. It also comes as the international community steps up its efforts to heighten sanctions against the nuclear-weapons seeking state.

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2017/09/103_236727.html

 

 

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4 hours ago, susieice said:

Trump talked to the UN today. He's calling Kim "Rocket Man" and says he's on a suicide mission. 

http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2017/09/19/trump-united-nations-full-speech.cnn

Yeah I think General Kelly's body language spoke for many of us during that speech: 

TELEMMGLPICT000141094694_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqqVzuuqpFlyLIwiB6NTmJweNtxj9PZ-PQqqpH_qJ95Uw.jpeg?imwidth=450

 

White House Chief of Staff John Kelly, left, reacts as he and first lady Melania Trump listen to U.S. President Donald Trump speak at the United Nations General Assembly 

 

An 'existential crisis'? How John Kelly reacted to Donald Trump's threats against North Korea

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"Yes but what about Hillary's emails"!!!!

 

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As a distant observer I was coming to the opinion that Kelly was the best thing to happen to this administration. He seemed to have calmed things down and helped the administration present a more professional front. 

I believe, if he decides he has had enough or his influence is not sufficient to bring about the changes required, that he will walk. The images of Kelly are quite telling imo.

Trump reallly really can not afford for Kelly to throw the towel in. 

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Just now, RAyMO said:

Trump reallly really can not afford for Kelly to throw the towel in.

Neither Trump nor the world im afraid. 

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I mean everyone know this is Trump as they know him by now. Rash bluster that would shock from any other leader is normal here. But is there method to the madness?

Is he trying to spook the already paranoid Kim to thinking he is just crazy enough to strike? Could psychological pressure on Kim allow internal enemies to move against him? Or is the true target to nudge China into doing something? Or set the stage by engaging in the wild bluster, then shock everyone by offering a conciliatory gesture? Who knows what the angle is! Unpredictability can be a strength instead of weakness if none know your next move or true intent.

Hang on to your hats people, this ride is getting bumpy!

smileys-afraid-494036.gif

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Trump is gonna be Trump. Kelly is just gonna have to take a Xanax and buckle up.

Rocket man, I think it's gonna be a long, long, time 'til touchdown brings you back to Earth again.

 

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I found his speech most heartening. Sadly, however, I doubt he has any imminent plans for military action, as there is only one US aircraft carrier even remotely in the region. That wouldn't be enough for any serious military strike. Nor would they be able to evacuate US citizens (e.g. military families).

 

On the PLUS side, I am VERY taken by The Russian Hare's "panic" emote, and intend to use it wherever possible in future :)

smileys-afraid-494036.gif.a5425de344267fc4aa26f0542df5d866.gif

Edited by RoofGardener
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Quote

Chinese universities ‘limiting admission of North Korean students’ as nuclear crisis escalates

Chinese colleges rejecting North Korean students’ applications, with increase in security measures since Pyongyang’s latest military test, according to college recruitment officials.

One recruitment official at a university in Beijing said his college was cutting back on North Korean student numbers, especially those majoring in physics or material science.

All the officials said they were following government instructions, but they did not make clear at what level the orders were made.

Surveillance has also been stepped up on North Korean students studying at Chinese universities since Pyongyang carried out its sixth nuclear test earlier this month, according to an official at a college in Beijing.

Link

 

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2 hours ago, Lilly said:

Trump is gonna be Trump. Kelly is just gonna have to take a Xanax and buckle up.

Rocket man, I think it's gonna be a long, long, time 'til touchdown brings you back to Earth again.

 

Yes. Remember it was Japan, backed by Australia, who called for the UN meeting, not Trump. He will defend the allies if Kim drops one on Japan. Most of the world is against Kim at this point. 

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