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Riaan

The Creation and the Flood

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I have previously suggested (can't remember where exactly) that the order of the creation (the earth is not 6000 years old) and flood myths should be swapped. The Noahs, and there were many of them, knew that the earth would be struck by a comet and set out to sea, where they would be safest. The impact caused all coastal (and higher?) areas of the earth to be flooded, and the impact also caused massive earthquakes and eruptions, which in turn caused the sun to be blocked out. Over time the waters subsided and the surviving humans and animals slowly returned to the coastal areas.  A Scandinavian flood myth appears to confirm this interpretation:

"The stories of the Teutonic tribes of Scandinavia are vivid and describe terrifying events. The imagery of these legends emphasizes the size of the cataclysm. One such tale portrays the chaos of the world when the mighty wolf Fenrir shook himself and "made the whole world tremble. The aged ash tree Yggdrasil [envisaged as the axis of the earth] was shaken from its roots to its topmost branches. Mountains crumbled or split from top to bottom …". Men "were driven from their hearths and the human race was swept from the surface of the earth. The earth itself was beginning to lose its shape. Already the stars were coming adrift from the sky and falling into the gaping void. Flames spurted from fissures in the rocks everywhere there was the hissing of steam. All living things, all plant life, were blotted out. … And now all the rivers, all the seas rose and overflowed. From every side waves lashed against waves. They swelled and boiled and slowly covered all things. The earth sank beneath the sea". Then slowly the earth emerged from the waves. Mountains rose anew … . Men also reappeared. … Enclosed in the wood itself of the ash tree Yggdrasil … the ancestors of a future race of men had escaped death."

The impact of a meteor or comet with Earth would have sent shock waves all over the planet, resulting in cracks in the crust of the Earth and boiling water when these cracks became flooded. Other legends also relate that the sky had moved, and the Scandinavian Flood Myth unequivocally states that the axis of the Earth had moved (i.e. the precession of the Earth was most likely caused by the impact). The falling stars match the South American legends in this respect, confirming that the Earth had been hit by a celestial object. Above all, this specific legend confirms that the earth and men only emerged from the waters after the impact (they had existed long before it occurred). In other words, the Creation occurred after Noah’s Flood, and not the other way around.

Any comments, assuming that these legends were inspired by actual events?

 

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I have read that the comment that struck earth around 12,000 years ago broke up in the atmosphere and struck the Atlantic and the North American continent. The continent was under a large ice sheet at the time, this would have caused it to melt, either in part or completely and this great release of water is what is now interpreted as the flood.

The population of earth that existed prior to the flood left the land and went in part into boats to ride the wave as it spread out, the others went onto higher ground as is held by many North American Indians, as recounted in the day the sky fell by rand and rose flem-ath.

but saying that, Andrew Collins has said in his book that there is a great carved out cave that could have been inhabited by survivors of the flood, that was dug out of the ground in the mountain range in central Iraq. And that this is the origin of the story of the Ark.

You then have the Hindu God that held the earth up out of the water so that mankind could survive in some small way.

 

I do like this myth above though and as far as it goes it does include a lot of what would happen if a large enough strike were to occur. So it is as plausible as any.

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16 minutes ago, Riaan said:

I have previously suggested (can't remember where exactly) that the order of the creation (the earth is not 6000 years old) and flood myths should be swapped. The Noahs, and there were many of them, knew that the earth would be struck by a comet and set out to sea, where they would be safest. The impact caused all coastal (and higher?) areas of the earth to be flooded, and the impact also caused massive earthquakes and eruptions, which in turn caused the sun to be blocked out. Over time the waters subsided and the surviving humans and animals slowly returned to the coastal areas.  A Scandinavian flood myth appears to confirm this interpretation:

"The stories of the Teutonic tribes of Scandinavia are vivid and describe terrifying events. The imagery of these legends emphasizes the size of the cataclysm. One such tale portrays the chaos of the world when the mighty wolf Fenrir shook himself and "made the whole world tremble. The aged ash tree Yggdrasil [envisaged as the axis of the earth] was shaken from its roots to its topmost branches. Mountains crumbled or split from top to bottom …". Men "were driven from their hearths and the human race was swept from the surface of the earth. The earth itself was beginning to lose its shape. Already the stars were coming adrift from the sky and falling into the gaping void. Flames spurted from fissures in the rocks everywhere there was the hissing of steam. All living things, all plant life, were blotted out. … And now all the rivers, all the seas rose and overflowed. From every side waves lashed against waves. They swelled and boiled and slowly covered all things. The earth sank beneath the sea". Then slowly the earth emerged from the waves. Mountains rose anew … . Men also reappeared. … Enclosed in the wood itself of the ash tree Yggdrasil … the ancestors of a future race of men had escaped death."

The impact of a meteor or comet with Earth would have sent shock waves all over the planet, resulting in cracks in the crust of the Earth and boiling water when these cracks became flooded. Other legends also relate that the sky had moved, and the Scandinavian Flood Myth unequivocally states that the axis of the Earth had moved (i.e. the precession of the Earth was most likely caused by the impact). The falling stars match the South American legends in this respect, confirming that the Earth had been hit by a celestial object. Above all, this specific legend confirms that the earth and men only emerged from the waters after the impact (they had existed long before it occurred). In other words, the Creation occurred after Noah’s Flood, and not the other way around.

Any comments, assuming that these legends were inspired by actual events?

 

I would think more from normal and abnormal local flooding. How would ancient people have known a comet or asteroid was coming or if they could see it what affect it would have?

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There were actual local or regional floods.  Please keep in mind that when you compare flood stories, most of them didn't happen at the same time so were not accounts of the same flood and those that may be describing the same event are retellings of that event over a period of time by peoples who heard the story but did not experience and flooding for that time frame.  There is no evidence that the peoples of the world knew in advance that the earth would be hit by a comet thus flooding areas of the planet (there was no global flood).  The closest may be the object that caused the Burckle Crater several thousand years ago but even that event would not have affected any shorelines in the Atlantic Ocean

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"There is no evidence that the peoples of the world knew in advance that the earth would be hit by a comet thus flooding areas of the planet (there was no global flood). "

If they had a near-miss many years before, with the tail of the comet lighting up the sky (some legends relate that the sky had fallen, i.e. the stars, or fire, came from the sky), then they must have realized what was probably going to happen.

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"The continent was under a large ice sheet at the time, this would have caused it to melt, either in part or completely and this great release of water is what is now interpreted as the flood."

Such a flood would not account for the earthquakes and lava coming from fissures in rocks and "mountains splitting". All of these point to a massive impact by a meteor or more likely a comet.

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If there was such a flood, why do we not find fossils arranged in order from heaviest to lightest? With Mammoths on bottom and Protozoa on top. We don't see that at all, the fossil record is arranged in the order that organism appeared over geological time (e.g. Dinosaurs before man) not in order by body size. 

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Well that is the difficulty while there is plentiful evidence for regional and local disasters there doesn't appear to be signs of such a strike in the time frame that would have raised the water level quickly. It did rise but not at a rate that would overwhelm anyone.

AFAWK

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For a scientific refutation of the topic on the asteroid strike and flood, I suggest you read the following article:

"Hancock and Carlson refuted on the timing of the Missoula Floods" at:

http://www.hallofmaat.com/read.php?1,612266 

 

I would also like to relate a true story told to me by my anthropology professor while he was during research in New Guinea during the 60s or 70s. When people of a particular tribe were asked to describe their origins, they would recite their lineage 5 or 6 generations back. Any ancestor beyond those generations was always described as hatching from an egg.

 

Please do not leap to the assumption that there must be any truth in myths at all.  Interestingly enough, I just looked for the source of the legend you quote in the following 3 books:  "Myths of the Norsemen" "Myths an Symbols in Pagan Europe" and "The Norse Myths" none of which mention this story. So would you be kind enough to cite the source of this myth; I would be interested to read it.

Also why do you think that an impact of a comet would send shockwaves across the world?

 

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The Larousse Encyclopedia of Mythology, Chancellor Press, London, UK, 1996, pp. 275-277.

A direct comet impact would most certainly send shock waves across the world.

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Shock waves, sure. Any relatively large earthquake does that. Not quite the same as tearing rifts in the crust.

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I read a book, or part of it, called Worlds in Collision, that had collected information on this subject, I can't remember the author. 

One thing I wonder about, though, is that bones decompose.  I mean, we don't really have an accurate representation of the past based on bones...  I was wondering more, if anyone has more information.  I heard, most fossils are just imprints of bones, but the museums lead us to believe they have actual bones, but bones are very rare to come by...  I also wonder about he accuracy of carbon dating, because I'm pretty sure if something has been in the desert for long enough, its half life would not be consistant, but that if radiation were exposed to the earth the half life could increase a lot, making carbon dating absolete... I don't think these scientists are considering all these factors, but are lying...  I don't want to take either side, but I'm sure there is something being hidden, facts about radiation and the amount of fossils on record.

I think honestly it's pretty hard to completely refute these things, except by hypothesis, or maybe theory...  but never by law.

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1 hour ago, Riaan said:

The Larousse Encyclopedia of Mythology, Chancellor Press, London, UK, 1996, pp. 275-277.

A direct comet impact would most certainly send shock waves across the world.

Ok I checked out the link. Although this story is told in past tense, the passage in fact describes a future event--Ragnorak, that is the end of the world, which has not happened yet. After Ragnorak, the world will be reborn, Baldur will be king of the gods, and things will be much better. (So the story goes)

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On 7/13/2017 at 2:58 PM, Riaan said:

I have previously suggested (can't remember where exactly) that the order of the creation (the earth is not 6000 years old) and flood myths should be swapped. The Noahs, and there were many of them, knew that the earth would be struck by a comet and set out to sea, where they would be safest.

It's clear that these are legends and often "kit bashed" from other sources.  Plus, you might want to ditch the "comet" idea.  

Comets are iceballs and tend to fragment as they get near the sun.  

A comet hitting Earth is more than likely to break up before it hits the ground (and more likely to break up before it hits Earth's atmosphere.)

The core of a comet has FAR less mass than an iron meteorite or stone meteorite of the same size.

The tail is gas, and not very much gas at that.  If you stood in it, I doubt that you'd be able to see it.  You could easily see the sky and the comet itself even if you were deep in the heart of the comet tail.  That's how insubstantial it is.  It has less impact on the Earth than the solar wind does.

And "out to sea" is FAR more risky than "stay inland and move away."

 

Quote

The impact caused all coastal (and higher?) areas of the earth to be flooded, and the impact also caused massive earthquakes and eruptions, which in turn caused the sun to be blocked out. Over time the waters subsided and the surviving humans and animals slowly returned to the coastal areas.  A Scandinavian flood myth appears to confirm this interpretation:"The stories of the Teutonic tribes of Scandinavia are vivid and describe terrifying events. The imagery of these legends emphasizes the size of the cataclysm. One such tale portrays the chaos of the world when the mighty wolf Fenrir shook himself and "made the whole world tremble. The aged ash tree Yggdrasil [envisaged as the axis of the earth] was shaken from its roots to its topmost branches. Mountains crumbled or split from top to bottom …". Men "were driven from their hearths and the human race was swept from the surface of the earth. The earth itself was beginning to lose its shape. Already the stars were coming adrift from the sky and falling into the gaping void. Flames spurted from fissures in the rocks everywhere there was the hissing of steam. All living things, all plant life, were blotted out. … And now all the rivers, all the seas rose and overflowed. From every side waves lashed against waves. They swelled and boiled and slowly covered all things. The earth sank beneath the sea". Then slowly the earth emerged from the waves. Mountains rose anew … . Men also reappeared. … Enclosed in the wood itself of the ash tree Yggdrasil … the ancestors of a future race of men had escaped death."

Your source is not a very good one.  There are accurate resources for Scandinavian myth: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/creation.html - note that there's no real Flood myth for Scandinavia (as you can confirm with a lot of googling.)  Fenrir is bound and does not escape until the Ragnarok (which hasn't happened.)

Quote

The impact of a meteor or comet with Earth would have sent shock waves all over the planet, resulting in cracks in the crust of the Earth and boiling water when these cracks became flooded. Other legends also relate that the sky had moved, and the Scandinavian Flood Myth unequivocally states that the axis of the Earth had moved (i.e. the precession of the Earth was most likely caused by the impact). The falling stars match the South American legends in this respect, confirming that the Earth had been hit by a celestial object. Above all, this specific legend confirms that the earth and men only emerged from the waters after the impact (they had existed long before it occurred). In other words, the Creation occurred after Noah’s Flood, and not the other way around.

Your source information has not taken any astronomy or geology classes.

Earth (and other planets) get hit by meteors and comets all the time.  This is not a rare event in the solar system.

If the Earth's crust cracks, there is NO water to flood out.  What's underneath is more rock, then lava.

If the Earth moved far enough to noticeably change the stars in the sky, the whole planet would have been destroyed.  It's very hard to shift a planet.  There would have been very obvious geological changes.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Opus Magnus said:

I read a book, or part of it, called Worlds in Collision, that had collected information on this subject, I can't remember the author. 

Velokovsky The Muchly Debunked.

 

Quote

One thing I wonder about, though, is that bones decompose.  I mean, we don't really have an accurate representation of the past based on bones...  I was wondering more, if anyone has more information.  I heard, most fossils are just imprints of bones, but the museums lead us to believe they have actual bones, but bones are very rare to come by... 

Bone decomposes at different rates in different environments.  Although most fossils are impressions and not bones, some bone and "gristle" *DOES* preserve.  That's how they know the T-rex, Sue, was female.

Quote

I also wonder about he accuracy of carbon dating, because I'm pretty sure if something has been in the desert for long enough, its half life would not be consistant, but that if radiation were exposed to the earth the half life could increase a lot, making carbon dating absolete... I don't think these scientists are considering all these factors, but are lying...  I don't want to take either side, but I'm sure there is something being hidden, facts about radiation and the amount of fossils on record.

You might like to read up on carbon dating on a site that's about science.  You'll need to learn a bit of chemistry (please do) and a bit of statistics (please do.)  You'll also learn that "Carbon Dating" is a very inaccurate term and that it's part of a much larger field called "radiometric dating."  You'll also learn how they check and constantly re-check the process.

Please don't learn about it on a skeptic board or even an Aliens board.  Learn about the real thing from the people who really do it.

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Asteroid, comet, meteorite, anything that came into our atmosphere and began burning up. 

"Ok I checked out the link. Although this story is told in past tense, the passage in fact describes a future event--Ragnorak, that is the end of the world, which has not happened yet. After Ragnorak, the world will be reborn, Baldur will be king of the gods, and things will be much better. (So the story goes)"

Ancient legends of actual events are often told as if they had been predicted by a sage - the details, however, match a massive impact by an asteroid, a comet or a meteorite. Something huge from outer space, that hit the earth at the Scotia plate (see Figures 15&16 here).

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1 hour ago, Riaan said:

Asteroid, comet, meteorite, anything that came into our atmosphere and began burning up. 

"Ok I checked out the link. Although this story is told in past tense, the passage in fact describes a future event--Ragnorak, that is the end of the world, which has not happened yet. After Ragnorak, the world will be reborn, Baldur will be king of the gods, and things will be much better. (So the story goes)"

Ancient legends of actual events are often told as if they had been predicted by a sage - the details, however, match a massive impact by an asteroid, a comet or a meteorite. Something huge from outer space, that hit the earth at the Scotia plate (see Figures 15&16 here).

Try again, this time without fiction:

Quote

The Scotia Sea and surrounding Scotia Arc have evolved over the past 40 Ma, by extension behind an east-migrating
subduction zone, at the boundary between the South American ŽSAM. and Antarctic ŽANT. plates. The considerable data set
now available Žregional geology and geophysics, earthquake seismology, satellite altimetry, global plate analyses. suggest
why east-migrating subduction began, what has been the driving force that has sustained it, and what other processes have
controlled the mode of back-arc extension in the Scotia Sea.
A suite of six reconstructions has been developed, based on this
data set. The reconstruction to 40 Ma creates a compact, cuspate continental connection between South America and the
Antarctic Peninsula at the subducting Pacific margin, with fragments Žnow dispersed around the Scotia Arc. occupying
positions within it compatible with their known geology. The driving force has been subduction of South American ocean
floor, which began as a result of southward migration of the pole of South American–Antarctic plate rotation, and a key
modulator of back-arc extension has been collision of ridge crest sections of the South American–Antarctic plate boundary
with the east-advancing trench. Cenozoic regional tectonic evolution has two other likely consequences which greatly
increase its importance. Firstly, this region saw the tectonic disruption of the final barrier to complete circum-Antarctic deep
water flow, that may have had a profound effect on palaeoclimate. Secondly, it is possible that the rapid roll-back of the
hinge of subduction is related to shallow eastward flow in the sub-lithospheric mantle. Both of these consequences are
explored. The reconstructions show that rapid roll-back of the subduction hinge Žaveraging 50 mmra over the last 40 Ma
with respect to the South American plate. has been a feature of all of Scotia Sea evolution, and provide a history of motion
of several oceanic microplates, most of which are now welded together within the Scotia Sea. This will guide the location of
seismometers andror dredge hauls to test the hypothesis of shallow mantle flow, and help interpret the results. The
reconstructions also allow an assessment of the creation of deep-water pathways that would have permitted the development
of the present-day Antarctic Circumpolar Current ŽACC.. An early Miocene onset Žwithin the period 22–17 Ma. seems
likely for the ACC, depending on the structure and palaeo-elevation of Davis Bank and Aurora Bank, sections of the North
Scotia Ridge. However, the study shows there was a delay Žof one or more million years. between initial provision of a
deep-water pathway and the major mid-Miocene change in global climate Žinvolving the general level of Antarctic
glaciation. that may have been related. If these changes were related, then the delay suggests that other factors, possibly
rough elevated ocean floor but also non-tectonic factors Žsuch as atmospheric CO2., were important in determining
palaeoclimate.

http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~jdwright/MarGeol/Barker.pdf

Needless to say, something that started some 40 million years ago has no relevance to human history. 

cormac

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Yes, I am aware that this is the general belief. I have previously pointed out that the medieval maps of that region closely resemble its present-day submarine topology (New Zealand, Australia, the bulge on the South American west coast). The medieval mapmakers had no right to know that, so where did they get that information from? But let's leave it at that.

Perhaps I should approach it from a different angle. Just how did the flood myths originate? As many as 500 Noah (deluge) legends can be found in many cultures around the world, with at least 62 of these having been found to be entirely independent of the Mesopotamian and Hebrew accounts [Frederick Filby, The Flood Reconsidered: A Review of … 1970]. Taking into account that there was no actual deity to warn them about the impending catastrophe, how did they know to prepare for it? As far as the 'falling sky' is concerned, South American myths relate that people had to hide in caves to escape the fire, and had to push a stick out to see if it would catch fire, before it was safe for them to leave. They also related that the sea was boiling. 

Now how did all these myths come into existence? And likewise, the creation myths? Mankind was not around 4 billion years ago, so they must refer to another event. 

The same applies to a myriad of other myths about gods and ancient peoples. All pipe dreams? We do have evidence for the existence of ancient civilizations - the 'anomalies' we find all over the world.

 

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7 hours ago, Kenemet said:

You might like to read up on carbon dating on a site that's about science.  You'll need to learn a bit of chemistry (please do) and a bit of statistics (please do.)  You'll also learn that "Carbon Dating" is a very inaccurate term and that it's part of a much larger field called "radiometric dating."  You'll also learn how they check and constantly re-check the process.

Please don't learn about it on a skeptic board or even an Aliens board.  Learn about the real thing from the people who really do it.

So well done.

I am sorry for my bad attitude, but I bristle when someone says a collection of myths from across the world "confirm" anything. It might confirm that we are all human, have evolved the same equipment and perceptions for dealing with the world and share experiences with common geologic factors, are faced with the same survival problems.   It becomes very selective though.  Most mythologies don't include Fenrir a mountain sized wolf or a serpent girdling the world.  The whole foundation of Norse mythology is impermanence, fallibility, and change.  Norse gods and men die at Ragnarok. That seems much different from mythology and religion based on an eternal deity; unchanging and infallible.

There is a  geologic thesis that the Black Sea flooded during the period of Homo sapiens existence.  So too in the north, Doggerland was inundated by rising waters of glacial melt.  Trawlers from time to time dredge up stone tool artifacts, bones, and charcoal from ancient campfires.  This was in a period from 6000 to 12000 BPE.  That is not really so long ago.  In my own part of the United States, the Missoula floods that scoured the ripple shaped ridges of the eastern Washington scab lands and carved much of the Colombia river gorge are early in the human habitation of North America.  The explosion of Mt. Mazama, whose remnant caldera is now Crater Lake is within human transmitted memory.  Three of those large but local events are tied together by climate change, but lasted over many thousand years.

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2 minutes ago, Riaan said:

Taking into account that there was no actual deity to warn them about the impending catastrophe, how did they know to prepare for it?

The events were gradual, waters rising over generations, not overnight.  Plenty of time to walk away in most cases.  If you were a Minoan when Thera exploded and generated a tsunami,  you might have been pretty much SOL.

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10 hours ago, Riaan said:

The Larousse Encyclopedia of Mythology, Chancellor Press, London, UK, 1996, pp. 275-277.

A direct comet impact would most certainly send shock waves across the world.

Yes but how would humans on the other side of the world associate the tremors to a collision?

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8 hours ago, Tinfoil hat said:

Ok I checked out the link. Although this story is told in past tense, the passage in fact describes a future event--Ragnorak, that is the end of the world, which has not happened yet. After Ragnorak, the world will be reborn, Baldur will be king of the gods, and things will be much better. (So the story goes)

Ah yes the old, "in the beginning it was a golden age, now it sucks, soon it will end and the golden age will return again" myth.

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8 hours ago, Kenemet said:

 It's very hard to shift a planet.  There would have been very obvious geological changes.

 

 

One reason for that is the mass of the earth which is enormous when compared to a light weight meteor/comet. Additionally the Earth with all its mass ( 5.972 × 10^24 kg ) is moving at 107,000 km/h add that together and you've got something heavy and fast moving - its gonna take quite a crack to influence it.

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"Yes but how would humans on the other side of the world associate the tremors to a collision?"

 

This specific myth does nog guess what the cause might have been - it only describes the after-effects, which we know could practically only have been caused by an impact of some kind.

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"One reason for that is the mass of the earth which is enormous when compared to a light weight meteor/comet. Additionally the Earth with all its mass ( 5.972 × 10^24 kg ) is moving at 107,000 km/h add that together and you've got something heavy and fast moving - its gonna take quite a crack to influence it."

The crust floats on the liquid lava outer core, so an impact that glanced off the crust may have imparted enough energy to move the crust by a couple of degrees. I seem to recall a number of other legends which also recorded that the position of the sun or heavenly bodies had moved.

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