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Frank_Hoenedge

Alternative History - Orion's Belt fallacy

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If you freemount a fictional telescope on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derinkuyu_underground_city using the Microsoft Research World Wide Telescope it's possible to observe Orion's Belt in the night sky.

 

It's also plausible that the air vents could have been viewing shafts.

 

One bit of romance I had thinking of this was that a high seer would look high up the air shafts to keep a calendar for the citizens of Derinkuyu underground city.

 

If the citizens were living underground with some of the population remaining underground for days at a time they would share the experience of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Siffre whose bodyclock adjusted to a 48 hour cycle.

 

This would allow the dissonance of the community to retain beliefs and delusions regarding the supernatural aspects of both the 'high seer' and the observable space based cues for harvest.

 

If this then spilled over into Egypt it may be an alternative history for the importance of Orion's Belt, with the option to install the shafts in the Great Pyramid as a claim to the stars they pointed at. For me, it was much better than the notion that the Pharoah's soul would be transmitted to the star.

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Welcome to the board Frank

I visited that site in early 1980's and it was quite intriguing.  Not quite grasping your point about Orion's belt could you clarify what you are claiming about this?

 

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" ...   delusions regarding the supernatural aspects of both the 'high seer' and the observable space based cues for harvest.

?   :huh:

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14 minutes ago, back to earth said:

" ...   delusions regarding the supernatural aspects of both the 'high seer' and the observable space based cues for harvest.

?   :huh:

Think he may be alluding to being able to track the season's via the stars rather than simply using say the lunar month, the high seer may have been attributed supernatural gifts in the minds of the general population (who seemingly could use the night sky for navigational purposes but were lost when it came to tracking the seasons). Not sure why the culture would need harvest time clues from the stars as the plants will indicate what time it needs picked for anyone watching. Perhaps they meant seeding time.

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The Egyptians did use celestial markers to help prepare for agricultural activities. The appearance of Sopdet in the night sky comes to mind. But I question how useful the Great Pyramid would be as an observatory, considering both shafts coming off the Queen's Chamber were blocked...and, oh yeah, the pyramid itself was sealed tight as a drum probably until the early Islamic period.

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18 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

The Egyptians did use celestial markers to help prepare for agricultural activities. The appearance of Sopdet in the night sky comes to mind. But I question how useful the Great Pyramid would be as an observatory, considering both shafts coming off the Queen's Chamber were blocked...and, oh yeah, the pyramid itself was sealed tight as a drum probably until the early Islamic period.

.....that and it was full of hydrogen, generators, cream cheese and pudding.

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8 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

.....that and it was full of hydrogen, generators, cream cheese and pudding.

You're a bad, bad man. But okay, so long as they didn't put raisins in it, too.

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Just an engineer's point of view with a minimal knowledge of ancient  history:  you don't build something as complex as a pyramid to surround a few viewing shafts.   There are all kinds of ways; sticks, stones, ditches, carvings, hills and combinations of those to mark and celebrate the movement of the heavens.  Lots of examples across the world. Of course those might be the Bulovas of ancient time pieces while a pyramid would have been the Cartier or Rolex of its day.  Pharaoh gotta have his bling.

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, Jarocal said:

Think he may be alluding to being able to track the season's via the stars rather than simply using say the lunar month, the high seer may have been attributed supernatural gifts in the minds of the general population (who seemingly could use the night sky for navigational purposes but were lost when it came to tracking the seasons). Not sure why the culture would need harvest time clues from the stars as the plants will indicate what time it needs picked for anyone watching. Perhaps they meant seeding time.

I was questioning the  'delusion' aspect.   Ancient 'star lore' helped  'hunting'   and gathering , way before agriculture . 

and it isnt a question of just simply looking at random plants and deciding they look like they could be picked . 

 

Eg . 

when these line up the right way  .....   you   may have permission   to gather emu eggs . 

 

Image result for great emu in the sky

yet however this worked underground by citing one section of the sky  ......    :huh:

 

But yes , for them it could have meant 'seeding time ' . 

Why build underground ?   Threats from others ...   weather change  ?  

regarding the structure location and its speculated builders ....  I am thinking  'vara '  .

FARGARD 2. Myths of Yima [Jamshed]

22. And Ahura Mazda spake unto Yima, saying: 'O fair Yima, son of Vivanghat! Upon the material world the evil winters are about to fall, that shall bring the fierce, deadly frost; upon the material world the evil winters are about to fall, that shall make snow-flakes fall thick, even an aredvi  deep on the highest tops of mountains  

23. 'And the beasts that live in the wilderness, and those that live on the tops of the mountains, and those that live in the bosom of the dale shall take shelter in underground abodes.

 

 

24. 'Before that winter, the country would bear plenty of grass for cattle, before the waters had flooded it. Now after the melting of the snow, O Yima, a place wherein the footprint of a sheep may be seen will be a wonder in the world.

 

25. 'Therefore make thee a Vara, ... 

descriptions follow ....   but are really based on certain elements that could, as the text says , be underground 

there is also a record of their warmer months being greatly reduced , so this isnt just about winter , its a about a climate change period , and it may have also caused disruption and ended some  habitable areas at locations at high altitude    in the east of  PIE  lands ( Pamirs ? ) 

 

Edited by back to earth

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1 hour ago, kmt_sesh said:

The Egyptians did use celestial markers to help prepare for agricultural activities. The appearance of Sopdet in the night sky comes to mind. But I question how useful the Great Pyramid would be as an observatory, considering both shafts coming off the Queen's Chamber were blocked...and, oh yeah, the pyramid itself was sealed tight as a drum probably until the early Islamic period.

 

and the little doors  and the bends in the shafts and  ......  

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you got cattle in there ... and you need  air vents  ! 

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some say the 'vara' idea inspired the concept of a 'Noah's  ark ' . 

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8 hours ago, back to earth said:

some say the 'vara' idea inspired the concept of a 'Noah's  ark ' . 

... or that the "vara" myth could be a version of the Mesopotamian flood myth.

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14 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

The Egyptians did use celestial markers to help prepare for agricultural activities. The appearance of Sopdet in the night sky comes to mind. But I question how useful the Great Pyramid would be as an observatory, considering both shafts coming off the Queen's Chamber were blocked...and, oh yeah, the pyramid itself was sealed tight as a drum probably until the early Islamic period.

There is some evidence that Greeks and Romans knew where the entrance was and how to open it.

But, it's scant.

Harte

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20 hours ago, back to earth said:

" ...   delusions regarding the supernatural aspects of both the 'high seer' and the observable space based cues for harvest.

?   :huh:

You've never heard of the Flaming Sacred Ham of Harvest? It appeared in the sky for three nights in a row so that early Sumerians and Egyptians would know when to start harvest. 

--Jaylemurph

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2 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

You've never heard of the Flaming Sacred Ham of Harvest? It appeared in the sky for three nights in a row so that early Sumerians and Egyptians would know when to start harvest. 

--Jaylemurph

Usually in the dog days of summer with Sirius high in the night sky.

Harte

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Cheers for the feedback, just to cover a few of the comments:

1.  visited that site in early 1980's and it was quite intriguing. - I hope it was as good as it looks. The Orion's belt 'fallacy' was the 'special status' amongst the other stars.

2. " ...   delusions regarding the supernatural aspects of both the 'high seer' and the observable space based cues for harvest. - roles are respectable, supernatural power is a delusion in retrospect. The observable space based cues for harvest would be the barrato notes in the maltese hypogeum like "sooth-sayers" etc, I was saying that the three stars might have been more influential in the community as they were easy to recognise and would have been in view twice a year.

3. .that and it was full of hydrogen, generators, cream cheese and pudding. - O.o

4. Pharaoh gotta have his bling. - Pretty much the end result, referring to the angle of the airshafts as his claim to the individual star/s, hence the obstruction during the sealing of the tomb.

 

 

 

 

 

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On 7/13/2017 at 4:12 PM, Frank_Hoenedge said:

If you freemount a fictional telescope on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derinkuyu_underground_city using the Microsoft Research World Wide Telescope it's possible to observe Orion's Belt in the night sky.

If you'll excuse a cranky old leopard's observations, frankly, you can view Orion's belt from most of Earth, so I don't see why this is particularly notable.

Quote

It's also plausible that the air vents could have been viewing shafts.

One bit of romance I had thinking of this was that a high seer would look high up the air shafts to keep a calendar for the citizens of Derinkuyu underground city.

If the citizens were living underground with some of the population remaining underground for days at a time they would share the experience of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Siffre whose bodyclock adjusted to a 48 hour cycle.

This would allow the dissonance of the community to retain beliefs and delusions regarding the supernatural aspects of both the 'high seer' and the observable space based cues for harvest.

The city (not the initial caves) were built by Christians who constructed it during the Byzantine era (330 AD to 1450 AD, missing Columbus' voyage by about 50 years.)  They already had excellent calendars and clocks, thanks to the reform of the calendar by Julius Caesar in 40 BC or thereabouts and by the time the city was built they had a whole set of feasts of Catholic saints on the calendar.  In addition, monks kept regular hours that were announced - usually by bells.  They would have used water clocks for some of the time, but mechanical clocks were invented long before the city folded.

Quote

If this then spilled over into Egypt it may be an alternative history for the importance of Orion's Belt, with the option to install the shafts in the Great Pyramid as a claim to the stars they pointed at. For me, it was much better than the notion that the Pharoah's soul would be transmitted to the star.

1) things don't spill backwards in time some 3,000 years (the time between the building of the pyramids and the Byzantine empire)

2) Orion's belt wasn't particularly important to either of these civilizations.  Solstices, yes.  Equinoxes were important to European Christians since they marked the seasons and feasts.  Egypt had only three 'seasons' and none of those were solar or Orion belt based.

3) the interior of the pyramid is small.  I've been in it.  You have to descend (backwards) at a crouch to get to the main chamber.  The other chamber is a detour... and you can't actually get there easily from the bottom.

pyra-reconkhufusm.gif

4) You can't get to all of the shafts from the same room.  The corridors are also narrow and might have bats as well.

5) If you're carrying a lamp, one misstep has you spilling oil all over yourself and the floor and possibly lighting it with unpleasant consequences. Once you get there, it's pitch black, about the size of my living room (though much taller) and to get to the "shafts" you have to negotiate your way to another chamber in pitch black while carrying a lamp and not spilling anything. 

6)  Having spent time crawling and climbing in there, you have to then get out (or starve to death in the dark when your lamp goes out.)  With your notes.  And your writing instruments.

.......OR......

You could set up a nice observatory with lots of space outside.  Something where you and other priests can walk right in, have a desk and library for notes and records, and sight to identify every star in the heavens.

***SPOILER ALERT****

 

 

The Egyptians actually didn't have very good astronomy.  We've got lists of star tables and they're so badly done that most of the time we can't figure out which stars or constellations are meant.  Their astronomy improved under the Ptolemies when they got Greek astronomers... around 300 BC (2,100 years AFTER the Great Pyramid.)

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Posted (edited)

On 7/13/2017 at 4:12 PM, Frank_Hoenedge said:

For me, it was much better than the notion that the Pharoah's soul would be transmitted to the star.

Except... you aren't an ancient Egyptian.

They actually wrote about souls going to join the northern (undying) stars.  What might seem logical to you might be VERY illogical to them.

Edited by Kenemet
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11 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

You've never heard of the Flaming Sacred Ham of Harvest? It appeared in the sky for three nights in a row so that early Sumerians and Egyptians would know when to start harvest. 

--Jaylemurph

Is that near the hominy cluster and  collard green & black-eyed pea nebula?

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Yes, aligned with O'Ryan's Suspenders.

Harte

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6 hours ago, Harte said:

Yes, aligned with O'Ryan's Suspenders.

Harte

 Now, that's funny.

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3 minutes ago, Gaden said:

 Now, that's funny.

Not for Mrs O Ryan who was totally unaware her husband was wearing her lingerie whilst gallavanting about in pyramids.   Unlti she saw this thread .....

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4 hours ago, Essan said:

Not for Mrs O Ryan who was totally unaware her husband was wearing her lingerie whilst gallavanting about in pyramids.   Unlti she saw this thread .....

 

 

Unfortunately the end is missing    ..... his handbag gets snatched ,,, women in the street flag down a policeman , the policeman interviews him ( while he tries to do a woman's voice and hide his moustache .... the people inside at dinner see the commotion and come out and  offer support ... then the woman  in front of a street full of people and the police  "  Wait ... is that my dress ?!  ... and my hat and handbag  ?   "

and the ma's wife peers at him ... "  ,Fred, is that you ! ? "  

 

:D :D   :D   

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Kenemet, I neglected to mention it earlier, but about your pair of posts earlier...spot on!

How many ways can we disprove fringe concepts, and how easily?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

A question to other posters, if interested. Here again we have a fuss over Orion's Belt. What's with that? If you recall the earlier thread that was recently closed, that OP was also obsessing over Orion's Belt. Aren't these stars really too young to support life, especially advanced sentient life? And aren't they actually many light years apart? Okay, so that's two questions: Why Orion's Belt, and the reality behind this cluster of stars we call Orion's Belt?

I think Harte is right. O'Ryan's Suspenders are a much better bet.

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