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Captain Risky

France and Germany to develop new fighter

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France and Germany to develop new European fighter jet

France and Germany unveiled plans yesterday (13 July) to develop a European fighter jet, burying past rivalries as part of a raft of measures to tighten defence and security cooperation.

The move to develop a new warplane accelerates steps that are expected to shape the future of the European fighter industry and its three existing programmes – the Eurofighter, France’s Rafale and Sweden’s Gripen.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/france-and-germany-to-develop-new-european-fighter-jet/

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2 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

France and Germany to develop new European fighter jet

France and Germany unveiled plans yesterday (13 July) to develop a European fighter jet, burying past rivalries as part of a raft of measures to tighten defence and security cooperation.

The move to develop a new warplane accelerates steps that are expected to shape the future of the European fighter industry and its three existing programmes – the Eurofighter, France’s Rafale and Sweden’s Gripen.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/france-and-germany-to-develop-new-european-fighter-jet/

Well, I guess it makes sense,

The US along with the UK as a tier one partner have been working together on the F35 programme, and seeing how the Germans and French don't want to buy American they have no choice but to build their own. no doubt the German-Franco design they come up with will be a middle of the road fighter, cheap and cheerful for all but the most serious of foes but also cheap for exports to the likes of Egypt, Brazil, Argentina etc...

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9 hours ago, stevewinn said:

Well, I guess it makes sense,

The US along with the UK as a tier one partner have been working together on the F35 programme, and seeing how the Germans and French don't want to buy American they have no choice but to build their own. no doubt the German-Franco design they come up with will be a middle of the road fighter, cheap and cheerful for all but the most serious of foes but also cheap for exports to the likes of Egypt, Brazil, Argentina etc...

Yes it does make sense. From a sales point of view, Europe competes with its self more often than not. Forgoing that and going head to head with multiple American makers will give a united Europe a distinct advantage. No unnecessary replication in developing tech or marketing. I guess with the price of developing modern stealth fighters and the high demands of customers to not get scaled down versions it was inevitable. 

The article mentions that there is the possibility that this new fighter being proposed will come in manned and unmanned variants which makes me think of the Neuron. So maybe this fighter program is way ahead already. Possibly Europe will not have to wait 15 years before an offering. Also no mention of whether this fighter will be an air-superiority fighter or a strike fighter along the lines of the F-35. Many European nations have already ordered the F-35 so France and Germany might go a different way.

Something to compete with the PAK-FA or the F-22?  

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I doubt it will be anything even on the level of the Russian or American F22. More Gripen/Rafale upgraded - especially if their talking of a unmanned variant, imagine the added cost, it would be astronomical if they tried making the F22 or F35 unmanned. So with that in mind that's what gives the game away as to the planes ability.

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Sounds like the Eurofighter Typhoon will be shortly dropped.  As good as it is as a air superiority fighter/interceptor it is nearly a complete failure as a multi-role fighter.  After 15 years in production it still has very limited air to ground abilities hence why our very ageing fleet of Tornado's are kept in service.  I have heard that the RAF are jealous that the Navy are acquiring the F35B.  However the RAF are likely to procure some F35A as part of the deal to purchase 135 aircraft.

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I see this as a good development for the UK. The Talarion project (M.A.L.E. UAV) instigated by EADS and run by Cassidian,, was a real Dassault triumph of poor design and impossible-to-solve software problems based on their nEUROn platform. I was a member of the Software Audit team at the time working out of Madrid and, in concert with other auditors, would not allow it to fly-over populations which made future development pointless. The project still exists but Cassidian have effectively pulled the plug on any additional funding. A waste of more than 2.5 Billion euros.

I fully expect a Franco-German shared project to meet the same fate if they try to compete with the new generation US,Russian, and Chinese aircraft under current development.

It would certainly be advantageous for the UK to strengthen its ties with the USA military and to Tier 1 with their future combat aircraft planning.

I fully expect the other 25 EU Nations to be required to buy the aircraft for interoperability and solidarity (this weeks must use word) demands which will only serve to undermine the effectiveness of NATO unless they conform to STANAG requirements- which somehow I doubt. The upshot of such a France-Germany requirement is of course to ensure that they both make a killing financially out of such a project at the expense of other EU nations..   

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24 minutes ago, skookum said:

Sounds like the Eurofighter Typhoon will be shortly dropped.  As good as it is as a air superiority fighter/interceptor it is nearly a complete failure as a multi-role fighter.  After 15 years in production it still has very limited air to ground abilities hence why our very ageing fleet of Tornado's are kept in service.  I have heard that the RAF are jealous that the Navy are acquiring the F35B.  However the RAF are likely to procure some F35A as part of the deal to purchase 135 aircraft.

The RAF is getting the F35B. 48 for the Navy the rest for the RAF. But this week in Lords a question was asked on the F35 and the Governments commitment to purchasing the number of F35B's the language used in the response suggests the RAF will likely get some F35A's the knock on effect is the possible numbers available for the Aircraft carriers falling from 100+ to 48.

As for the Typhoon. a milestone was reached this week with the Live firing of Brimstone under Project Centurion. as they transition weapons and capabilities from the Tornado GR4 on to Typhoon for the Royal Air Force.

Also on the Brimstone missile - Sea spear for the Navy.

Also Brimstone on the AH-64E Apache.

And just the hell.

 

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, keithisco said:

I see this as a good development for the UK. The Talarion project (M.A.L.E. UAV) instigated by EADS and run by Cassidian,, was a real Dassault triumph of poor design and impossible-to-solve software problems based on their nEUROn platform. I was a member of the Software Audit team at the time working out of Madrid and, in concert with other auditors, would not allow it to fly-over populations which made future development pointless. The project still exists but Cassidian have effectively pulled the plug on any additional funding. A waste of more than 2.5 Billion euros.

I fully expect a Franco-German shared project to meet the same fate if they try to compete with the new generation US,Russian, and Chinese aircraft under current development.

It would certainly be advantageous for the UK to strengthen its ties with the USA military and to Tier 1 with their future combat aircraft planning.

I fully expect the other 25 EU Nations to be required to buy the aircraft for interoperability and solidarity (this weeks must use word) demands which will only serve to undermine the effectiveness of NATO unless they conform to STANAG requirements- which somehow I doubt. The upshot of such a France-Germany requirement is of course to ensure that they both make a killing financially out of such a project at the expense of other EU nations..   

 Building a fighter is no easy thing, especially trying to keep it one step ahead of the opposition. France, has shown that it can go it alone. Only a few countries can claim such. Britain, with its tier 1 participation in the F-35 program has effectively given up on building any new fighter, happy to just have operational control over any aircraft it buys. Meaning limited access to source codes and supply lines. 

The UK will never get an even production agreement with the U.S. Tier 1 type agreements are the best it will be able to get. Strangely, Israel, is not a tier 1 partner yet it has more access to the F-35 platform. 

Brexit has closed the door to the UK having options other than America. Cant see how this can be good for UK or bad for France and Germany, especially France which will be able force other EU states to buy European. The UK won't be in a position to slow down European integration on defence matters, effectively opening the way for states like Spain, Italy, Greece, Sweden, Belgium etc to make the program successful. 

Edited by Captain Risky

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Better to fill the battlespace with good fighters than with a relative handful of great ones. The Germans made that mistake with tanks in WW 2.

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I'll be sure to recommend my buddy Sajan buy a couple dozen.

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12 hours ago, stevewinn said:

The RAF is getting the F35B. 48 for the Navy the rest for the RAF. But this week in Lords a question was asked on the F35 and the Governments commitment to purchasing the number of F35B's the language used in the response suggests the RAF will likely get some F35A's the knock on effect is the possible numbers available for the Aircraft carriers falling from 100+ to 48.

As for the Typhoon. a milestone was reached this week with the Live firing of Brimstone under Project Centurion. as they transition weapons and capabilities from the Tornado GR4 on to Typhoon for the Royal Air Force.

Also on the Brimstone missile - Sea spear for the Navy.

Also Brimstone on the AH-64E Apache.

And just the hell.

 

Interesting the RAF would want the F35B.  I would have thought the F35A with its longer range and larger weapons payload would have been the choice.  However maybe the RAF are starting to understand the purpose of a STOVL aircraft.

It always perplexed me that the Harrier was confined to Carrier duties.  The original concept was an aircraft where a base could be quickly established without the need to build a long runway.  The US Marines did a lot of development on the Harrier so it was capable of taking off from narrow roads and highways.

Have they decided what the second Carrier will be used for?  I read awhile back they only intend to have one at sea at a time.  Then the second is available for refit and maintenance.  The aircraft can be transferred between the two and with 48 they could carry a full compliment even if some were in Maintenance.

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16 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

 Building a fighter is no easy thing, especially trying to keep it one step ahead of the opposition. France, has shown that it can go it alone. Only a few countries can claim such. Britain, with its tier 1 participation in the F-35 program has effectively given up on building any new fighter, happy to just have operational control over any aircraft it buys. Meaning limited access to source codes and supply lines. 

The UK will never get an even production agreement with the U.S. Tier 1 type agreements are the best it will be able to get. Strangely, Israel, is not a tier 1 partner yet it has more access to the F-35 platform. 

Brexit has closed the door to the UK having options other than America. Cant see how this can be good for UK or bad for France and Germany, especially France which will be able force other EU states to buy European. The UK won't be in a position to slow down European integration on defence matters, effectively opening the way for states like Spain, Italy, Greece, Sweden, Belgium etc to make the program successful. 

 BAe Systems never asked for a 50/50 split in development of the F35. They signed up to a 15% involvement and that is what they are delivering. There are hundreds of BAe coders involved in writing the 8 million lines of code that will be required, including source code that was the subject of an ITAR clearance a couple of years ago. It is definitely true that NO nation will be granted full access to all of the F35 components (e.g. Rolls-Royce retains its I/P) and Israel does not have greater access than the UK to deploy its own weapons systems.

I don't think the UK actually wants to partner with other EU nations on aircraft development after catching a crab with the A400M programme, but BAe systems is certainly capable enough of running its own fighter development programme if there was a good enough business case to pursue one.

As someone who has extensive first-hand knowledge of working inside Airbus Space and Defense I can tell you that it is a nightmare of inter-national squabbling and delays with Spain by far the weakest member (Greece and Belgium don't even figure) and Sweden doing very well with the Gripen having beaten out Dassault to the India contract.

The UK is happy for the EU nations to go down the path of further integration (although many members refuse to) but it just isn't for us.

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10 hours ago, skookum said:

Interesting the RAF would want the F35B.  I would have thought the F35A with its longer range and larger weapons payload would have been the choice.  However maybe the RAF are starting to understand the purpose of a STOVL aircraft.

It always perplexed me that the Harrier was confined to Carrier duties.  The original concept was an aircraft where a base could be quickly established without the need to build a long runway.  The US Marines did a lot of development on the Harrier so it was capable of taking off from narrow roads and highways.

Have they decided what the second Carrier will be used for?  I read awhile back they only intend to have one at sea at a time.  Then the second is available for refit and maintenance.  The aircraft can be transferred between the two and with 48 they could carry a full compliment even if some were in Maintenance.

The RAF would much rather have the F35A, but the UK government yet again on defence, defence on a budget, - to the bean counters in the treasury much better to have 138 F35B's which can be shared or pooled between the RAF and Navy. In a ideal world the navy would have F35B's and the RAF F35A's. but the thinking seems to be more expeditionary, force projection striking from the carriers and not land bases. as we seen with Libya it cost x5 more striking from land than if we'd had Carriers and 6x more for Iraq(Syria)

Queen Elizabeth Carriers, the plan was and still is i believe to have both Carriers operational, (last commented by David Cameron 2015 was HMS PoW will not be mothballed or held in reserve) The possibility of one carrier being based at HMS Juffair in Bahrain, next door to the US Navy's Fifth Fleet. I think for the first 9 months both carriers will be operational and then we'll probably be down to one in service at any given time. due to leave, refit, training etc... (trouble is the manning issues in the Navy 5,000 sailors short, the Government did recruit an extra 500 that was to make sure this carrier was manned. That's why in part HMS Ocean is laid up, 12months earlier than planned even though she had 60'odd million pound refit not long ago. (2 years?) 

The original concept of the harrier and short run ways, I seen a small 10min to 15minute documentary on the Harrier on the movie channel MoviesforMen. If i remember correctly the Harrier (British) was used in this original role in the Belize crisis and also during the Falklands.  (quick search below)

Belize 1975

belize-7.jpg?w=700&h=

belize-2.jpg?w=1000&h=

Falklands

8cef6066b013bc9ac9e89edf5e773786.jpg

san-carlos-fob-falkland-islands-harrier-

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20 hours ago, stevewinn said:

The RAF would much rather have the F35A, but the UK government yet again on defence, defence on a budget, - to the bean counters in the treasury much better to have 138 F35B's which can be shared or pooled between the RAF and Navy. In a ideal world the navy would have F35B's and the RAF F35A's. but the thinking seems to be more expeditionary, force projection striking from the carriers and not land bases. as we seen with Libya it cost x5 more striking from land than if we'd had Carriers and 6x more for Iraq(Syria)

Queen Elizabeth Carriers, the plan was and still is i believe to have both Carriers operational, (last commented by David Cameron 2015 was HMS PoW will not be mothballed or held in reserve) The possibility of one carrier being based at HMS Juffair in Bahrain, next door to the US Navy's Fifth Fleet. I think for the first 9 months both carriers will be operational and then we'll probably be down to one in service at any given time. due to leave, refit, training etc... (trouble is the manning issues in the Navy 5,000 sailors short, the Government did recruit an extra 500 that was to make sure this carrier was manned. That's why in part HMS Ocean is laid up, 12months earlier than planned even though she had 60'odd million pound refit not long ago. (2 years?) 

The original concept of the harrier and short run ways, I seen a small 10min to 15minute documentary on the Harrier on the movie channel MoviesforMen. If i remember correctly the Harrier (British) was used in this original role in the Belize crisis and also during the Falklands.  (quick search below)

Belize 1975

belize-7.jpg?w=700&h=

belize-2.jpg?w=1000&h=

Falklands

8cef6066b013bc9ac9e89edf5e773786.jpg

san-carlos-fob-falkland-islands-harrier-

Seems prudent for the RAF to have both the F35B and F35A.  F35A to provide long range air superiority for potential forward bases for the F35B.

I have no problem with one carrier being laid up whilst the other is in commission.  Ideally you would have two but we wouldn't be like the French with one very expensive complicated carrier that leaves you without a carrier during long refits.

Our carriers are brand new so will not need lengthy expensive maintenance for some years hopefully.

All this constant criticism of the F35  and bigging up the Eurofighter that has still to reach potential gets me down to be honest.  The F35 will be the best fighter in the sky, too much is at stake for it to fail.

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1 hour ago, skookum said:

Seems prudent for the RAF to have both the F35B and F35A.  F35A to provide long range air superiority for potential forward bases for the F35B.

I have no problem with one carrier being laid up whilst the other is in commission.  Ideally you would have two but we wouldn't be like the French with one very expensive complicated carrier that leaves you without a carrier during long refits.

Our carriers are brand new so will not need lengthy expensive maintenance for some years hopefully.

All this constant criticism of the F35  and bigging up the Eurofighter that has still to reach potential gets me down to be honest.  The F35 will be the best fighter in the sky, too much is at stake for it to fail.

I honestly think we'll see in time both the F35A and F35B's in service.

Like you i cannot understand the criticism of the F35 programme, obviously its not beyond criticism but the stuff you read in the media is mind boggling.  the F35 will prove its worth at some point. Its here to stay for the next 30+ years.

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I hope you are right about the F35 Steve (you know my views on it) and the big upside is that BAe Systems will recieve 15% of the profits on each F35A/B sold and the programme will secure 25,000 jobs in the UK and pump an additional 1Billion pounds each year into the Treasury.

That said- Macron has announced 850Million euro's of cuts in the French Defence Budget for this year so I dont know how that squares with the announcement of this joint project with Germany-bluster comes to mind.  

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On 7/17/2017 at 10:41 AM, skookum said:

It always perplexed me that the Harrier was confined to Carrier duties.  The original concept was an aircraft where a base could be quickly established without the need to build a long runway.  The US Marines did a lot of development on the Harrier so it was capable of taking off from narrow roads and highways.

Do you mean as fighters? That was because the need was for a fighter that could use small ships decks, and the Harrier with its short takeoff/vertical land capability fit the bill admirably (as it demonstrated in the Falklands, of course). The RAF could (it believed at the time, anyway) rely on having long runways available for large, long range fighters like Phantoms and then Tornadoes, but recognised the usefulness of the Harrier as an attack/close support aircraft on the battlefield. 

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On 7/17/2017 at 1:13 AM, Captain Risky said:

Brexit has closed the door to the UK having options other than America. Cant see how this can be good for UK or bad for France and Germany, especially France which will be able force other EU states to buy European.

I know you're eager to predict Brixt Doom regarding everything, but why should that be? The Rafale has sold to

none of whom are in the EU, and the Typhoon to

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