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DanL

Killing with Kindness and Rights without Resp

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Killing with Kindness and Rights without Responsibilities...The fatal flaw in the Western culture? Why are we doing this? Is there hope? What causes people to throw aside common sense and literally give away their prosperity and freedoms?

When you look at the cultures of the past you find that they lasted for often thousands of years yet our Western Democratically operated culture seems to be falling rapidly apart after only a relatively short period.

When you look closely at the differences one of the biggest that I see is the idea that if you are nice to people and give them a lot of stuff then they will like you and act right. In the USA you are constantly told all about peoples RIGHTS. Unfortunately there don't seem to be any responsibilities to go with them. If a government is going to offer to help someone that has landed on hard times then is it just totally awful to expect them to try, at least a little bit, to help themselves and not further dig themselves into their trouble?

For an example if you can't support yourself or your children and we are going to offer you support then at the very least you should stop having kids until you can support yourself and the children you already have. I think that having child after child born into ever deepening poverty is the gravest sort of child abuse and should be treated as such. Instead we reward this by giving them even more money almost none of which goes to actually helping these kids.

t is insanity to give money to a drug addict!! PERIOD. They will not buy food, pay for shelter, clothing or medical care with it. They just buy more drugs!! If you are poor and we give you a way to buy groceries then we should expect you to not waste this on junk and at high priced convince stores.

I read a sad story today about a young man that had killed several people. He had been out on bail for several violent robberies. He skipped out on it and was soon caught stealing again and put back in jail where he was soon out on bail again and guess what he killed some people while robbing them. Why was his right to be free SOOOOO much greater than other peoples right to not be robbed or killed???

I sat on a jury one time and tried a guy for attempted murder. He had a long history of violent crime and this was his second conviction for attempted murder. He would probably be on the streets again today if he hadn't stabbed a jailer a week after we convicted him and was shot and killed. WHY do these people rate so much more mercy than their victims?? Why is being an inept killer a bit better than a successful one. The intent is the same and the punishment should be the same.

The relative intelligence in the west is plummeting. The people with IQs near to being called retarded are breeding like rats. Every generation is a little dumber than the one before simply because smarter people limit the number of kids to how many they can not only support but also give a boost into successful adulthood. Sending a kid to college costs a LOT!!! Meanwhile the far less gifted have as many kids as possible many if not most of which never finish high school and end up on welfare just like their mothers. I don't mention the fathers because they usually aren't there. We have a guy on Death row here that is trying to claim that he is too stupid to execute. He has 26 kids though with a dozen or so not too bright ladies. BOY what a wonderful gift he has made to the gene pool!!!

In the killing with kindness area we also have the poor people in third world countries. They can't feed themselves so we feed them and then they are healthier and have even more kids that we feed that have more kids and now there is no hope that they will ever be able to feed themselves. It is just a matter of time before a famine will hit that we can't fix with even our ability and the death tole will be in the hundreds of millions. Even with us seemingly willing to try and feed them; eventually they are going to out breed our ability to grow, process and ship them free food. Instead of offering them endless food how about birth control and expect them to use it if they want our food. The sad thing is that most of these people hate us for not giving them enough and because we have more than they do. So they go have some more kids to show us!!

Kindness needs to have limits. Rights need to be balanced with responsibilities and if people won't do it then we need to either cut them off and let nature take care of it or take their kids and neuter them. All violent criminals should be fixed before they leave prison. If you already have two or more kids then a vasectomy or tubal ligation should be a required part of getting welfare.

Convicted felons should never be allowed to vote again and people that have been on welfare for more than a year should not vote until they have worked for a a full year. If you can't run your life without being in jail or having to beg for government assistance then why would you be a good person to make decisions on how this or any country should be run??

I'm not talking about Social Security where you are getting back what you contributed to or unemployment insurance that you or your employer paid for. I'm just talking about plain welfare for those that won't or can't work an have no physical or mental reason. We have to stop encouraging Drug addiction, laziness and uselessness by paying for it. If you need money or food we should offer you a job. If you won't take it then we take your kids and let you do as you wish including starve to death if that is what you want to do.

I know it is harsh but the last person that we are killing with our kindness is ourselves and the other good hard working people out there. It is hard to go to the store and shop hard with coupons mostly buying store brands and then when you get to check out watch someone buying top brands, sodas, candy and steaks with their food stamps. Then you drive by the projects and notice that they drive newer and nicer cars than you do and they and their kids are dressed better than you and yours. I have seen this many times where I used to live I went through the projects every day on the way to work and we often shopped at the grocery store near there.

Our culture is dying because we are killing it with kindness. We take in people from other countries where they are being killed...and as soon as they get here they start wanting to turn our countries into exactly the same sort of pest heaps that they were fleeing!! AND WE LET THEM DO IT!!!! This is insanity. I am beginning to fear that we are just too stupid to be free and don't deserve it any more. We are giving it away as fast as we can to the worst parts of our own population and now more and more to the worst of the worlds population. Sooooo Sad an end for a wonderful idea but in the end for cultures like with people, No good deed will go long unpunished!

All we can hope is that next time we will do better. People live and die and each generation is a new chance. Cultures are much the same.

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Posted (edited)

Now THAT's an epic spleen venting! :w00t:  If a Hollywood Liberal read that before they were medicated in the morning, they'd become catatonic!  I agree with HUGE portions of what you say but you have to understand that this problem isn't just caused by "kindness".  IMO, kindness is the last consideration of those in power who push for benefits for large factions of citizens (and illegals) without the need for any responsibility to be displayed by them.  Things like the New Deal and Great Society were just cynical schemes that were used to ensnare a dependable voter base for Democrats.  In fairness, when the New Deal was dealt, America was a different place than it is today. At that time there was a true desperation among the population but there was also a finely honed sense of personal responsibility.  A classic example of this was displayed in a scene from the movie CINDERELLA MAN.  In the 30's, a washed up boxer named James J Braddock regained the heavyweight title through sheer grit but before he managed to regain his position he went through humiliating times, financially.  Watch how a man acted back then when he had to beg "friends" for help to get his heat back so his kids could come home.

 My parents were children in these times and they never took for granted that anyone owed them ANYTHING.  I was taught from earliest memory that if someone gave me something, I was to be thankful and say THANK YOU because they wanted me to understand that truth as well.

There's another scene in that movie (GREAT PERFORMANCES Russel Crowe, Renee Zellweger and Paul Giamatti) where Braddock goes back to the assistance office and REPAYS every penny he was given.  

The 60's version of a new deal, the GREAT SOCIETY,  marked the decline of personal responsibility in this nation.  It was a purely cynical grab for votes and encouraged the abuses we see today.  There are unfortunates in every society of human beings.  A moral nation owes those people a chance to overcome those hard times.  In return, the recipient should feel they owe the society a return on that investment by being productive, even if in a small way by helping others to the extent that they can.  It's about personal dignity and if someone provides all your needs with no effort on your part, there is no way to have that dignity we all crave for ourselves.

 

Edited by and then

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Posted (edited)

I don't agree with a lot of what you wrote, but I do think that birth control and sterilization procedures should be free for people who want them. I don't even disagree with incentives to use birth control. 

Edited by ChaosRose
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On 7/17/2017 at 3:48 PM, DanL said:

Killing with Kindness and Rights without Responsibilities...The fatal flaw in the Western culture? Why are we doing this? Is there hope? What causes people to throw aside common sense and literally give away their prosperity and freedoms?

When you look at the cultures of the past you find that they lasted for often thousands of years yet our Western Democratically operated culture seems to be falling rapidly apart after only a relatively short period.

When you look closely at the differences one of the biggest that I see is the idea that if you are nice to people and give them a lot of stuff then they will like you and act right. In the USA you are constantly told all about peoples RIGHTS. Unfortunately there don't seem to be any responsibilities to go with them. If a government is going to offer to help someone that has landed on hard times then is it just totally awful to expect them to try, at least a little bit, to help themselves and not further dig themselves into their trouble?

For an example if you can't support yourself or your children and we are going to offer you support then at the very least you should stop having kids until you can support yourself and the children you already have. I think that having child after child born into ever deepening poverty is the gravest sort of child abuse and should be treated as such. Instead we reward this by giving them even more money almost none of which goes to actually helping these kids.

t is insanity to give money to a drug addict!! PERIOD. They will not buy food, pay for shelter, clothing or medical care with it. They just buy more drugs!! If you are poor and we give you a way to buy groceries then we should expect you to not waste this on junk and at high priced convince stores.

I read a sad story today about a young man that had killed several people. He had been out on bail for several violent robberies. He skipped out on it and was soon caught stealing again and put back in jail where he was soon out on bail again and guess what he killed some people while robbing them. Why was his right to be free SOOOOO much greater than other peoples right to not be robbed or killed???

I sat on a jury one time and tried a guy for attempted murder. He had a long history of violent crime and this was his second conviction for attempted murder. He would probably be on the streets again today if he hadn't stabbed a jailer a week after we convicted him and was shot and killed. WHY do these people rate so much more mercy than their victims?? Why is being an inept killer a bit better than a successful one. The intent is the same and the punishment should be the same.

The relative intelligence in the west is plummeting. The people with IQs near to being called retarded are breeding like rats. Every generation is a little dumber than the one before simply because smarter people limit the number of kids to how many they can not only support but also give a boost into successful adulthood. Sending a kid to college costs a LOT!!! Meanwhile the far less gifted have as many kids as possible many if not most of which never finish high school and end up on welfare just like their mothers. I don't mention the fathers because they usually aren't there. We have a guy on Death row here that is trying to claim that he is too stupid to execute. He has 26 kids though with a dozen or so not too bright ladies. BOY what a wonderful gift he has made to the gene pool!!!

In the killing with kindness area we also have the poor people in third world countries. They can't feed themselves so we feed them and then they are healthier and have even more kids that we feed that have more kids and now there is no hope that they will ever be able to feed themselves. It is just a matter of time before a famine will hit that we can't fix with even our ability and the death tole will be in the hundreds of millions. Even with us seemingly willing to try and feed them; eventually they are going to out breed our ability to grow, process and ship them free food. Instead of offering them endless food how about birth control and expect them to use it if they want our food. The sad thing is that most of these people hate us for not giving them enough and because we have more than they do. So they go have some more kids to show us!!

Kindness needs to have limits. Rights need to be balanced with responsibilities and if people won't do it then we need to either cut them off and let nature take care of it or take their kids and neuter them. All violent criminals should be fixed before they leave prison. If you already have two or more kids then a vasectomy or tubal ligation should be a required part of getting welfare.

Convicted felons should never be allowed to vote again and people that have been on welfare for more than a year should not vote until they have worked for a a full year. If you can't run your life without being in jail or having to beg for government assistance then why would you be a good person to make decisions on how this or any country should be run??

I'm not talking about Social Security where you are getting back what you contributed to or unemployment insurance that you or your employer paid for. I'm just talking about plain welfare for those that won't or can't work an have no physical or mental reason. We have to stop encouraging Drug addiction, laziness and uselessness by paying for it. If you need money or food we should offer you a job. If you won't take it then we take your kids and let you do as you wish including starve to death if that is what you want to do.

I know it is harsh but the last person that we are killing with our kindness is ourselves and the other good hard working people out there. It is hard to go to the store and shop hard with coupons mostly buying store brands and then when you get to check out watch someone buying top brands, sodas, candy and steaks with their food stamps. Then you drive by the projects and notice that they drive newer and nicer cars than you do and they and their kids are dressed better than you and yours. I have seen this many times where I used to live I went through the projects every day on the way to work and we often shopped at the grocery store near there.

Our culture is dying because we are killing it with kindness. We take in people from other countries where they are being killed...and as soon as they get here they start wanting to turn our countries into exactly the same sort of pest heaps that they were fleeing!! AND WE LET THEM DO IT!!!! This is insanity. I am beginning to fear that we are just too stupid to be free and don't deserve it any more. We are giving it away as fast as we can to the worst parts of our own population and now more and more to the worst of the worlds population. Sooooo Sad an end for a wonderful idea but in the end for cultures like with people, No good deed will go long unpunished!

All we can hope is that next time we will do better. People live and die and each generation is a new chance. Cultures are much the same.

Gosh, we have our issues, I am not honking genuine kindness is one of them though. I am thinking your solutions lack a lot of critical analysis. We just can't sterilize, shoot people, and take their kids from them. 

I am not opposed to birth control, or educational programs that teach practical things.

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What the OP is promoting is Eugenics. The Western World has been down that road, before.                                                                                                     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics

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Posted (edited)

On 7/17/2017 at 6:48 PM, DanL said:

I sat on a jury one time and tried a guy for attempted murder. He had a long history of violent crime and this was his second conviction for attempted murder. He would probably be on the streets again today if he hadn't stabbed a jailer a week after we convicted him and was shot and killed.

Hmmmmmm jailers shot an inmate?  They do not carry guns 

Edited by Farmer77

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I think there's a disconnect. There are people who don't seem to realize that a) it's not criminal to be poor, and b ) most of the poor are working. 

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3 hours ago, ChaosRose said:

I think there's a disconnect. There are people who don't seem to realize that a) it's not criminal to be poor, and b ) most of the poor are working. 

It is called ignorance, people parroting sound bites they hear on right wing news outlets.  Just too lazy to bother to actually research what they are talking about.  

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On 7/20/2017 at 3:43 AM, Farmer77 said:

Hmmmmmm jailers shot an inmate?  They do not carry guns 

In Beaumont Texas the top of the court house is/was part of the county jail. The Deputies that move the inmates between the jail and the court rooms are indeed very much armed. I live out of Huntsville Texas. This is the home ground of the Texas Prison System and has about 9 BIG prisons here. My wife worked 25 years in them and my daughter has been there working for 10. Most of my friends work in the prisons. I know prisons. While the guards that walk among the inmates don't carry guns let me assure you there are nonetheless a lot of guards that are well armed.

Lanis Reubin was convicted for a second or third attempted murder and was sentenced to life as a habitual criminal. He was being moved when he stabbed the jail house deputy with some sort of home made shank. The officer fell and then shot up as Mr. Reubin evidently was preparing to stab down and get him again. He drew and fired one shot that hit Mr. Reubin in the upper arm near the arm pit. This severed the Brachial artery and he bled to death in just a matter of a couple of minutes. 

The problem at the time with a life sentence in Texas due to Federal Law and requirements.was that life was considered 35 years. You became eligible for parole when you had served half. At the time if you were good and didn't get in trouble you could acrdue "good time" that could count as three for one. This could and often did mean that a criminal that was convicted and given life was eligible for parole in as little as 6 or 7 years!! Mr. Reubin was mad as a hatter and just evil and mean with a wrap sheat that was a horror story and yet there he was, once again out and trying to kill someone. 

He shot the dure three times in the side and back from across the car with a dirt cheap saturday night special in 25 caliber. revolver that actually, since it was winter and the victim had a coat on, did little more than break the skin. We actually discussed the intent because the gun was so anemic that it was actually not a great or dangerous weapon choice. We determined that there was no doubt that his INTENT was to kill the man and so convicted him on an atemted murder charge rather than an assault charge. 

It didn't help him that he was his own attorney and actually threatened the guy again in the court room and also made threats towards the jury. He ended up chained to his chair with a court appointed lawyer before the trial was over. I suspect because of his antics that in the end the conviction might have been over turned. When he threatened the jury it sort of made us nervous and prejudiced us against him somewhat I think. 

There, you go I suspect if you work a little you can find the court records or a newspaper artical about it. This was in the late 70 to very early 80s period in Beaumont, Jefferson County Texas jail/ courthouse. It isn't nice to call someone a liar but I've found that for a lot of not to bright people their manners go out the window when they are anonymous.. 

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, DanL said:

In Beaumont Texas the top of the court house is/was part of the county jail. The Deputies that move the inmates between the jail and the court rooms are indeed very much armed. I live out of Huntsville Texas. This is the home ground of the Texas Prison System and has about 9 BIG prisons here. My wife worked 25 years in them and my daughter has been there working for 10. Most of my friends work in the prisons. I know prisons. While the guards that walk among the inmates don't carry guns let me assure you there are nonetheless a lot of guards that are well armed.

Lanis Reubin was convicted for a second or third attempted murder and was sentenced to life as a habitual criminal. He was being moved when he stabbed the jail house deputy with some sort of home made shank. The officer fell and then shot up as Mr. Reubin evidently was preparing to stab down and get him again. He drew and fired one shot that hit Mr. Reubin in the upper arm near the arm pit. This severed the Brachial artery and he bled to death in just a matter of a couple of minutes. 

The problem at the time with a life sentence in Texas due to Federal Law and requirements.was that life was considered 35 years. You became eligible for parole when you had served half. At the time if you were good and didn't get in trouble you could acrdue "good time" that could count as three for one. This could and often did mean that a criminal that was convicted and given life was eligible for parole in as little as 6 or 7 years!! Mr. Reubin was mad as a hatter and just evil and mean with a wrap sheat that was a horror story and yet there he was, once again out and trying to kill someone. 

He shot the dure three times in the side and back from across the car with a dirt cheap saturday night special in 25 caliber. revolver that actually, since it was winter and the victim had a coat on, did little more than break the skin. We actually discussed the intent because the gun was so anemic that it was actually not a great or dangerous weapon choice. We determined that there was no doubt that his INTENT was to kill the man and so convicted him on an atemted murder charge rather than an assault charge. 

It didn't help him that he was his own attorney and actually threatened the guy again in the court room and also made threats towards the jury. He ended up chained to his chair with a court appointed lawyer before the trial was over. I suspect because of his antics that in the end the conviction might have been over turned. When he threatened the jury it sort of made us nervous and prejudiced us against him somewhat I think. 

There, you go I suspect if you work a little you can find the court records or a newspaper artical about it. This was in the late 70 to very early 80s period in Beaumont, Jefferson County Texas jail/ courthouse. It isn't nice to call someone a liar but I've found that for a lot of not to bright people their manners go out the window when they are anonymous.. 

Lying? No. Conflating "deputies" with "jailers", absolutely. http://agency.governmentjobs.com/houstonair/default.cfm?action=viewclassspec&ClassSpecID=30619                                                               http://study.com/articles/Deputy_Sheriff_Job_Outlook_and_Requirements_for_Becoming_a_Deputy_Sheriff.html                                            

Edited by Hammerclaw
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5 hours ago, DanL said:

It isn't nice to call someone a liar but I've found that for a lot of not to bright people their manners go out the window when they are anonymous.

I wasn't calling you a liar, just having spent a decent amount of time as a corrections officer I noticed an inconsistency in your story.  As Hammerclaw pointed out above it seems to be a matter of verbiage. 

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It probably isn't nice to say that poor people deserve to be shot, sterilized, or have their kids taken away, either. 

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In most of Texas the county jail is operated by the sherifs department. This is especially true in the portion of the jail anex that is immediately connected to the courthouse. Generally the people that are being tried are kept closer than the ones serving time or waiting for transfer to the prison system. These people in this area are both jailers and deputy sheriffs and the ones moving the inmates carry guns when outside of the cell blocks. You also often see detectives there questioning these guys about current ongoing investigations. There are also people who spend their time carrying inmates back and forth between the prisons and the county jails as they are run through the system often for multiple legal issues. Transporting them for bench warents usually falls to the county jail system and the people doing this are deputy sheriffs even though they may only work for the courts. 

Whatever you choose to call them if you stab one they may well shoot you in Texas. It is not very uncommon at all. It is a lot less common once they get to prison. About the only shooting deaths you have in prison are people that are making an escape and even that isn't common. Because they are handled more and moved around more there seem to be more problems at the county level than in the prison system. In 25 years behind bars my wife never felt threatened. She spent 12 of those years working on the prison that had death row and 7 ones with a super max that was all singles cell segregation.

I wouldn't have messed with her either. She worked in dental and had a rather good relationship with most of the guys since she wasn't making them do anything that they didn't want to do. That said they knew that if they hurt her she was going to hurt them and if they acted good she would treat them in a civil manner. If they acted up she would just step back and tell them "Get up and GET out. Send a sick call request in when you can act like a big boy and we will make an appointment for you again." That meant in 6 months. She actually loved working in the prisons. In general they were nice and if they weren't she didn't have to be nice. In private practice in the free world she has to smile and be polite when a patient acts like an a$$. 

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I don't mind poor people. Hell's jingling bells I've been there myself. My problem is with people that can't supoort themselves much less their kids that then proceed to have kid after fid that has no real father and is raised in poverty with little chance to do better. To me this is CHILD ABUSE! I was unemployed for over a year once and lost a house. I've looked being on the streets dead in the face and well understand that this can happen to anyone. Let me tell you what my wife and I didn't do. We didn't have any more kids. We had planned on at least two or three but ended up with one. My wife went to college while I loaded trucks for a living for nearly 5 years. She went to planned parenthood to get the pill. AND TOOK IT. 

I also have absolutely NO USE for men that have kids with women and have no intention to support those kids. Once again to me that is child abuse. It may not be nice but I would like my Grand kids to have a decent life and not be burgined with 6 times as many non working people on welfare. At some point we will all starve. If someone refuses to have any procreational control and refuses to support or take care of their kids then I think that they should be NEUTERED. Or plan B aressted and locked up until they are past the age where more kids is an option. My wife and I gave up on having more kids than we could support and give the type of life that they deserve. Nlow you want my Grandkids to give up everything to support an even heavier load. Plus we are bringing in as many uneducated poor as we can from other countries that will also breed like rabbits and not support their kids. 

Sorry but at some point this is just not going to work out well for anyone. Exactly how many 70 IQ people do we need? They at one time played a very important part in our economy and country. They worked the fields and in our factories and earned a living. You have to understand, we don't have need for the vast numbers of laborers that we did in the past. What is the place in our country for someone that doesn't have the raw intelligence to even make a living at Mac Donald's. The jobs that they did are GONE! No great number of field workers are needed with the machines doing it now, no ditch diggers, No stevedores on the docks in huge numbers, The factories are more and more moving ionto automation and the jobs that are left are not for people that are a little slow, If they push the minimum wage much higher there won't even be the jobs at fast food as they are already testing automated stores at several locations where you order and auto check out yourself.

The numbers of the disenfranchised is GROWING by leaps and bounds with each generation in all the firat world countries. Our populations are getting top heavy as more and more people depend on fewer and fewer people to work and support the economy. This isn't mean this is just the way it is. At some point the weight of the unproductive is going to crush the workers and when that happens the world will burn. Any time in history that this has happened and things inside any country reach this point the answer is always the same WAR!! Governments of all types turn to this rather than letting the anger eat up the country from the inside out.

Is it really a kindness to allow people to out breed their food supply? Is it kind to feed people and then just leave them in an ever growing ghetto always just slightly above starvation. We have done this to third world country after third world country. If there are a million people dying of famine the answer is not to feed them so that in 10 years there are 3 million of them starving. The problem isn't not enough food. The problem is too many mouths and with our "kindness" we have made matters worse than ever. The right to have kids needs to be tied to the responsibility of feeding them. I know, it sucks and isn't fair. The problem in the past has been localized with various countries having their populations periodically thinned by famine. As we have become a much more global culture we didn't address this problem. We rather offered it a band-aid. If people won't control their population then nature will. This is a FACT. We, especially in the west, are working hard to make this so that it will be a global die off rather than just a regional one. The Chinese are the only people that see the problem and are going at it in an effective matter. I'm not sure that their way is the best way but they have their history that has taught them what happens when their population gets too large and they are going to avoid it this time or at least try.

The population of a region was in the past based on that areas ability to feed and support the people that lived there. You didn't have a huge population in a lot of areas simply because there just wasn't enough arable land to feed very many. Now we have huge populations in places that never could support them and in areas of limited fertility the populations have BOOMED.

Like it or not we have a problem. I don't expect that we will do anything constructive. That just doesn't seem to be the way we work. The middle east is one of the places where there are WAY too many people. India and the surrounding areas like Bangladesh and Afghanistan are over populated as is much of sub-Saharan Africa. Many of the island nations are going under with populations that they can't sustain. Even parts of the US and Europe are beginning to show serious cracks caused by too many people and not enough for them to do. There really is a lot of truth in that old statement about “Idel hands being the devils work shop.” In the past they built monuments and big constructions to occupy idle workers. Now we just put them on welfare and ignore them. THAT is a recipe for DISASTER!


 

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I'm glad Planned Parenthood was there for you. If we aren't careful, it won't be there for other people. 

I think there's a middle ground of education and free contraception. We don't have to starve people off. It would help if we quit telling them to trust that God will provide. Clearly, that's not happening.  

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It's interesting that I see people agreeing with you here, and then on that what happened to mercy and kindness thread. 

You can't have it both ways, folks. 

I'd like to think that as we become more automated, we evolve to value each other more and money less. I know it might be pie in the sky. 

Edited by ChaosRose
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The idea of civilisation is to make life better and easier for those that come after us. I really don't understand how so many would rather watch people die than give them something that they haven't "earned."

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