XenoFish Posted July 23, 2017 #1 Share Posted July 23, 2017 Alright I have a challenge for you. Convince me that my disbelief is wrong and show me why I should have faith in a higher power. I want to know why should I believe in god or anything spiritual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sees Posted July 23, 2017 #2 Share Posted July 23, 2017 (edited) I question whether such an attitude conveys receptivity/openness. I am sceptical about your sincerity but I will tentatively dip my toe into the less than friendly water here.... Do you know the difference between god and spirituality? It is possible to live a spiritual life without being 'sold' on the god bit (as conventionally understood)! Spirituality is a way of life and there are many varied branches of this that embrace diverse beliefs. Your belief in existentialism serves you so why would it be wrong? (I used to be an existentialist). We hold beliefs not just because of values and thoughts but from our experiences which consolidate them. I am not someone who would say you 'should' believe in this or that...just have a good understanding of that with which you choose to target....that would be a step forward. Edited July 23, 2017 by sees 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightScreams Posted July 23, 2017 #3 Share Posted July 23, 2017 1 hour ago, XenoFish said: Alright I have a challenge for you. Convince me that my disbelief is wrong and show me why I should have faith in a higher power. I want to know why should I believe in god or anything spiritual. Dismissal is easy, so is belief. But what are you basing it on? What is your foundation that shows validity for your skepticism? Remember if you base your skepticism on only the things proven known, then you still fail because of the unknowns and considering science hasn't even found the theory of everything let alone proven, then you can't even have validity in that the knowns will hold true going forward. Many once known "facts" has later been debunked. Today science recognizes that there's more to reality than just what we experience but for now all lie in theoretics. This is where the believers fault as well, they are basically doing the vice versa of skepticism. Neither is wrong nor right until science can validate but yet you can't always trust their validation because at times, they are later shown to be wrong. The real question is, why do you want convincing? Why would you challenge anyone to do that? You must have an agenda, something you hope to glean from this. Normally I would suspect troll because this is often the types of questions that trolls like to pose just to start arguments or debates. However I suspect you may have another desire, perhaps just looking for a different perspective but I would encourage you to neither believe nor deny, rather just take everything in with an open mind. You respond to beliefs and skeptics with "ok maybe..but" 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted July 23, 2017 #4 Share Posted July 23, 2017 1 hour ago, XenoFish said: Alright I have a challenge for you. Convince me that my disbelief is wrong and show me why I should have faith in a higher power. I want to know why should I believe in god or anything spiritual. Dangling a hook without cheese in front of a fish, isn't fun at all. But, fish have been known to get caught without bait, on their own hook. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted July 23, 2017 Author #5 Share Posted July 23, 2017 Just answer my question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted July 23, 2017 #6 Share Posted July 23, 2017 5 minutes ago, XenoFish said: Just answer my question. You can have your answer after you sell all that you have. "The right to enter the kingdom is conditioned by faith, personal belief. The cost of remaining in the progressive ascent of the kingdom is the pearl of great price, in order to possess which a man sells all that he has." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcgram Posted July 23, 2017 #7 Share Posted July 23, 2017 All I can put forth is that my belief system works for me when nothing else did. I sought out God when I felt that I could not go on any further and was questioning my very existence. It's provided comfort, joy, strength for me in times of troubles. If that works for you, great. If it doesn't work for you, also great. Your belief or disbelief are a personal decision, something that no one else can make for you. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted July 23, 2017 Author #8 Share Posted July 23, 2017 I had at one point in my life so thoroughly convinced myself that magick worked. That it was real. I fell into a mental trap and I wonder why people believe in spiritual things and god all that stuff. What is the selling point of it all. Why believe when you can't hold onto it, can't see it, or even use it? Faith seems to be an assumption that things will work out because "divine daddy" will make it right. But why? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted July 23, 2017 #9 Share Posted July 23, 2017 One theory about religion and belief in 'Big Daddy' is that people do not make a proper transition through individuation, and transfer the 'mumma dadda bubba ' relationship into a 'divine' one , instead of transitioning to the self responsible 'adult' role themselves. It relieves them of the pressure of responsibility ... just hand that over to big sky daddy, he look after you and supply all your wants , hopes and dreams . A psychological equivalent of gathering all your household and family bills and debts together and giving them to a rich relative who offered to pay them all out for you . Yaaaah - HOO ! A clean start .... start fresh again ! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted July 23, 2017 #10 Share Posted July 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, XenoFish said: I had at one point in my life so thoroughly convinced myself that magick worked. That it was real. I fell into a mental trap and I wonder why people believe in spiritual things and god all that stuff. What is the selling point of it all. Why believe when you can't hold onto it, can't see it, or even use it? Faith seems to be an assumption that things will work out because "divine daddy" will make it right. But why? Perhaps that might be were you errored. Magic is for magicians. It's how they get their way, and why it isn't real. That's why you probably ended up trapped. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted July 23, 2017 #11 Share Posted July 23, 2017 That makes no sense whatsoever . 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted July 23, 2017 #12 Share Posted July 23, 2017 Well, sometimes you don't know that you're trapped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted July 23, 2017 Author #13 Share Posted July 23, 2017 4 minutes ago, back to earth said: One theory about religion and belief in 'Big Daddy' is that people do not make a proper transition through individuation, and transfer the 'mumma dadda bubba ' relationship into a 'divine' one , instead of transitioning to the self responsible 'adult' role themselves. It relieves them of the pressure of responsibility ... just hand that over to big sky daddy, he look after you and supply all your wants , hopes and dreams . A psychological equivalent of gathering all your household and family bills and debts together and giving them to a rich relative who offered to pay them all out for you . Yaaaah - HOO ! A clean start .... start fresh again ! That's what I thought myself. An extension of the family dynamic. Filling some need. Perhaps the idea of a loving god is reflective of the individuals own loving father. If you're father is a cruel person then the idea of god may very well be tainted. When it comes to the magician they are an explorer into a more metaphysical side of life. Instead of praying to a god they seek to engage god. Not so much having faith but knowing truth, however subjective that might be. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcgram Posted July 23, 2017 #14 Share Posted July 23, 2017 For me personally, faith at first was something for me to hold onto emotionally. I wanted, needed, to know that there was more to life. I had a rather rough beginning and losing my father at 14 totally blew me out of the water, so to speak. I searched for many years to find that one thing that I felt gave me some sense of security. I wanted to believe in something that was stable in my life. I dabbled in the occult but that just made me feel more empty inside. I studied with many different religions, always moving on when I felt that things were not what I was looking for. I observed a cousin (by marriage) that was going through life with a joyful attitude, no matter what was going on. I asked him about it and he told me how his belief in God had given him a better outlook on life. I wanted that in my life so I embraced it with my heart and soul and never looked back. I think that having faith helps me to be a more loving, compassionate person to others. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted July 23, 2017 Author #15 Share Posted July 23, 2017 Just now, Will Due said: Well, sometimes you don't know that you're trapped. So sayeth the man who keeps referencing the blue book. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted July 23, 2017 #16 Share Posted July 23, 2017 8 minutes ago, Will Due said: Well, sometimes you don't know that you're trapped. Speak for yourself on that one .... especially on that one 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted July 23, 2017 Author #17 Share Posted July 23, 2017 1 minute ago, tcgram said: For me personally, faith at first was something for me to hold onto emotionally. I wanted, needed, to know that there was more to life. I had a rather rough beginning and losing my father at 14 totally blew me out of the water, so to speak. I searched for many years to find that one thing that I felt gave me some sense of security. I wanted to believe in something that was stable in my life. I dabbled in the occult but that just made me feel more empty inside. I studied with many different religions, always moving on when I felt that things were not what I was looking for. I observed a cousin (by marriage) that was going through life with a joyful attitude, no matter what was going on. I asked him about it and he told me how his belief in God had given him a better outlook on life. I wanted that in my life so I embraced it with my heart and soul and never looked back. I think that having faith helps me to be a more loving, compassionate person to others. This is what I'm looking for. An explanation. In TC's case it was about an emotional need. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcgram Posted July 23, 2017 #18 Share Posted July 23, 2017 Just now, XenoFish said: This is what I'm looking for. An explanation. In TC's case it was about an emotional need. Exactly!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted July 23, 2017 #19 Share Posted July 23, 2017 8 minutes ago, XenoFish said: That's what I thought myself. An extension of the family dynamic. Filling some need. Perhaps the idea of a loving god is reflective of the individuals own loving father. If you're father is a cruel person then the idea of god may very well be tainted. Indeed. Fear the Lord ... as some say . Or, if you been bad all your life , you won;t really get away with it .... just you wait 'till your father gets home young man ! 8 minutes ago, XenoFish said: When it comes to the magician they are an explorer into a more metaphysical side of life. Instead of praying to a god they seek to engage god. Not so much having faith but knowing truth, however subjective that might be. Magick is a psychological technology that operates on the level of technology ( or method) with the religion and ( hopefully ) God , stripped away . Religion buys and drives a car . Magick is about learning automotive engineering yourself and setting up a workshop. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Lilly Posted July 23, 2017 Popular Post #20 Share Posted July 23, 2017 I'm old, I've seen a great deal and experienced a great deal. I can't bother with trying to sell anyone on anything, but I will tell you this: I've personally seen/experienced more stuff that makes me believe than not believe. For me it's just that simple. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted July 23, 2017 #21 Share Posted July 23, 2017 5 minutes ago, XenoFish said: This is what I'm looking for. An explanation. Then eventually you'll find it, if you don't give up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted July 23, 2017 Author #22 Share Posted July 23, 2017 So the angle in which most people (I am assuming) look at spirituality/religion is emotional. Now this I can understand. Magick gave me that, it gave me a sense of certainty. I could change things, even though those changes were purely psychological. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted July 23, 2017 Author #23 Share Posted July 23, 2017 1 minute ago, Lilly said: I'm old, I've seen a great deal and experienced a great deal. I can't bother with trying to sell anyone on anything, but I will tell you this: I've personally seen/experienced more stuff that makes me believe than not believe. For me it's just that simple. Well that's my problem. I have seen and experienced a lot of odd and strange things, but nothing that completely convinced me that it was real. I have had times when it seemed as if prayer were answered, and spells that I've cast work. Yet there was always this nagging part of me that questions everything. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted July 23, 2017 #24 Share Posted July 23, 2017 (edited) So the angle in which most people (I am assuming) look at spirituality/religion is emotional. Now this I can understand. Magick gave me that, it gave me a sense of certainty. I could change things, even though those changes were purely psychological. I think there is a certain 'control factor' involved . Of course, we need to do those things , it was cold this morning, I put some more wood on the fire at 5;30 am . I also pull weeds out the garden . I will also control people that disrupt my space , etc etc . We all have desire for things to turn out the way we want . But on some levels, it is very liberating to 'release control' 'amazing ' things can happen . ( so much for magick being a control trip ! ) Edited July 23, 2017 by back to earth 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilly Posted July 23, 2017 #25 Share Posted July 23, 2017 I don't believe in magic and our prayers aren't always answered. Things work out, other things end in tragedy. I've buried not only my parents but my brother and my little daughter. It's not about 'getting what one wants', but rather about the value of human life and our collective purpose as sentient beings in the universe. IMO there's something significant about being conscious beings, something beyond the flesh and biochemistry of our corporeal bodies. I can't sell it to you, you just have to experience it for yourself. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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