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Does anything ever really change?


OverSword

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Does anything ever really change?  As time goes by sometimes it feels as if things have changed or gotten better but now I'm feeling like it's only individuals that progress and become better but overall society is fairly stagnant, having the same problems and arguments for decades or possibly even centuries.  Watch this segement of the Mike Douglas show, I'm guessing from 1973 to 75 and see if this all seems very familiar in context with today.

 

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Same problems different people and governments.   Society has changed in many ways and regressed in many ways. 

 

That's why it is a constant fight to maintain what we are.  Even though it may seem pointless.

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I think of it as being the same cereal, different box. Deep down nothing has really changed, just the settings.

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Not really. The pendulum swings one way and then it swings back the other way. The uncomfortable moments occur when it hits either far point. 

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It's probably a matter of perception but, it seems that everything tends to run on 10 year cycles. 

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It seems like the deep state is terrified of positive change. It's as if they don't want peace and prosperity. There's too much money in endless conflict, and greed comes before the middle class. On a human level, we just have new lyrics to old tunes, so the songs remain the same.

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4 hours ago, Paranormal Panther said:

It seems like the deep state is terrified of positive change. It's as if they don't want peace and prosperity.

Well, of course!

Prosperous people are harder to control, harder to force Social engineering on and far more difficult to panic into doing or accepting something without thinking about it.

They are also more able to defend themselves from Govt over-reaches and oppression. 

4 hours ago, Paranormal Panther said:

 

There's too much money in endless conflict, and greed comes before the middle class. On a human level, we just have new lyrics to old tunes, so the songs remain the same.

Yup...

It is this repetitiveness that makes me wonder if the Human Race isn't an evolutionary dead-end. 

History rhymes way too much.

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19 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

Well, of course!

Prosperous people are harder to control, harder to force Social engineering on and far more difficult to panic into doing or accepting something without thinking about it.

They are also more able to defend themselves from Govt over-reaches and oppression. 

Yup...

It is this repetitiveness that makes me wonder if the Human Race isn't an evolutionary dead-end. 

History rhymes way too much.

Your comment about evolution is very timely. Males have much lower fertility rates now than they did in the past. You likely read or saw news items about it this week. It almost sounds like science fiction.

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3 hours ago, Paranormal Panther said:

Your comment about evolution is very timely. Males have much lower fertility rates now than they did in the past. You likely read or saw news items about it this week. It almost sounds like science fiction.

Fertility , or lack of interest? Women have been encouraged to be mean for decades (both meanings) and the future isn't exactly looking bright for the next generations. 

 

Much more disturbing was a report that the IQs of Western men has declined 14 points in the last 100 years... and nobody in the world is climbing quickly enough to take up the slack. 

That could be flat-out deadly to the species as a whole. 

But, only if it is true... and I am not even sure if it passes my own smell-test. 

If it IS true, then the great-grandsons of the same people who were the first people to eliminate slavery world-wide, the people that brought us all this technological and social progress and stood on the freaking Moon for cryin' out loud.... will drop the ball, and let it all slide back into Tribalism and oppression and general misery?

Perhaps.

Its not like it hasn't happened before.

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1 hour ago, AnchorSteam said:

Fertility , or lack of interest? Women have been encouraged to be mean for decades (both meanings) and the future isn't exactly looking bright for the next generations. 

Diet and inactivity probably have more to do with it than anything else.   Same with intelligence.  Sitting on your duff and watching TV does not increase your IQ.  I haven't noticed women getting meaner, but my circle of friends is limited.

On 7/25/2017 at 1:17 PM, XenoFish said:

It's probably a matter of perception but, it seems that everything tends to run on 10 year cycles. 

Things do seem to go in cycles.  There are a lot of different groups and beliefs in our society pushing the norms back and forth, yet over a long time, I hope it is more of a spiral than a closed loop.  I have seen a lot of change in society and individuals in the last 50 years.  As a kid in the South, I was used to a line on the bus and separate bathrooms and drinking fountains.  It didn't always entail separate but equal either.  In those days, only white people could come through the front door of my great-grandfathers meat market.  My uncles could hire a black man to cook at their barbecue pit, but no white person would buy from a black man who owned his own barbecue pit.  That is the way things were.

Some things have changed in both the realm of law and human behavior.   And there is push back.  Some of the same arguments are still going on,  some people are still as hateful as they  ever were, but it is not the norm of society nor is the behavior as universally accepted.  I am not saying it is fixed, just a little better. 

I read comments about Obama worsening race relations.  I disagree.  Race relations were bad, maybe they are getting better.  One big difference is that black people and women have more confidence to stand up for their rights and tell white men to shove it when the situation deserves.  Maybe that is why women seem meaner to some.

2 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

IS true, then the great-grandsons of the same people who were the first people to eliminate slavery world-wide

What does this mean?  The Scots and English outlawed the slave trade in 1807 and emancipated all slaves in the American colonies in 1833.  The US didn't eliminate slavery world-wide.  Britain and France had a bigger role in pressuring Middle Eastern countries to eliminate slavery.   Saudi Arabia didn't pass a law against slavery until 1962.

 

2 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

the people that brought us all this technological and social progress and stood on the freaking Moon for cryin' out loud.... will drop the ball, and let it all slide back into Tribalism and oppression and general misery?

Do not despair,  India and China have picked up the ball.   School math scores in Finland had topped US scores for quite a while.  The US may be fading because of greed, stupidity, privilege, and lack of vision, but that is not permanent.  There are still a lot of brilliant people in the US. Our politicians have pushed us to believe there are simple common sense solutions for complex problems.  Sometimes there are not.  Maybe we should try to Make America Smart Again.

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2 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

What does this mean?  The Scots and English outlawed the slave trade in 1807 and emancipated all slaves in the American colonies in 1833.  The US didn't eliminate slavery world-wide.  Britain and France had a bigger role in pressuring Middle Eastern countries to eliminate slavery.   Saudi Arabia didn't pass a law against slavery until 1962.

Why do you think I am speaking of the US exclusively? If you had not chopped off my post like that, the word "Western" would still have been in there. 

The last hold-out for Slavery in this Hemisphere was Brazil, they let go in 1888. 

 

And I can do you a few better; Look into the Berlin Conference of 1885 and the Brussels act of 1890. The concept of slavery was so odious that only the complete elimination of it on a Global scale was good enough, and so the Slavery Convention of 1926 and then the Forced Labor Convention of 1930. Both were judged historic achievements at the time, with the blessing of the League of nations.

 

I know that it is considered an outrageous thing to say in this day and age, but Western culture is a rather admirable thing. After the above measures, slavery was only continued with in the shadows, in isolated and barely populated corners of the world... such as the despicable Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. 

 

Quote

Do not despair,  India and China have picked up the ball.   School math scores in Finland had topped US scores for quite a while.  The US may be fading because of greed, stupidity, privilege, and lack of vision, but that is not permanent.  There are still a lot of brilliant people in the US. Our politicians have pushed us to believe there are simple common sense solutions for complex problems.  Sometimes there are not.  Maybe we should try to Make America Smart Again.

Again with the "America sucks" routine... did I even mention the word America in my post?

Okay, so a European nation of 6 million does better with Math on the average, what use are they making of it? Have they turned their backs on the ethos that created a century of progress?

 

"Sometimes there are not" .... and sometimes, there ARE.

 

And sure, education needs improvement, no argument there. After decades of expanding costs and declining results, I don't blame the kids. I think we need better teachers.

Removing the Socialist Engineering from curriculum might help. Could make room for more advanced Math classes, for example.

Agreed?

Edited by AnchorSteam
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19 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

Fertility , or lack of interest? Women have been encouraged to be mean for decades (both meanings) and the future isn't exactly looking bright for the next generations. 

 

Much more disturbing was a report that the IQs of Western men has declined 14 points in the last 100 years... and nobody in the world is climbing quickly enough to take up the slack. 

That could be flat-out deadly to the species as a whole. 

But, only if it is true... and I am not even sure if it passes my own smell-test. 

If it IS true, then the great-grandsons of the same people who were the first people to eliminate slavery world-wide, the people that brought us all this technological and social progress and stood on the freaking Moon for cryin' out loud.... will drop the ball, and let it all slide back into Tribalism and oppression and general misery?

Perhaps.

Its not like it hasn't happened before.

It could be both for a variety of reasons. I do know that both hand-grip strength and testosterone levels have decreased among the American Millennial generation. British Millennial women are weaker too. My guess is that there isn't just one cause of this decline. It may come down to the fact that our activities don't match our designs. Technology, which can be a great thing, is misused by many people. This misuse can lead to more isolation and more obesity. It's like a perfect storm of factors that lead to a decline in many varied categories.

I have my own theory about the alleged decline in IQs. You and I might be on the same page there, but some people might misunderstand things. We don't need that kind of thread drift. We have enough closed threads as it is. Suffice to say that demographic and population trends affect many varied scores. They should be divided to get a realistic look at why they are what they are. For instance, we both know why Sweden now has a high rate of rapes. It's not because of Viking genes.

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20 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

Again with the "America sucks" routine... did I even mention the word America in my post?

Right you are that you did not mention America, I did misread and think you weer referring to the US as pivotal in ending slavery.  We have been the driving force of Western culture or at least industrial culture for over 100 years, but we have not been alone.

Not bashing America though, I live here, my family lives here.   As I said, the US may be fading because of greed, stupidity, privilege, and lack of vision, but it is not permanent.  I should have added sense of entitlement.  Civilization will not collapse in the meantime.   I think honesty,hard work, and ethics could use a kickstart.

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21 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

I know that it is considered an outrageous thing to say in this day and age, but Western culture is a rather admirable thing. After the above measures, slavery was only continued with in the shadows, in isolated and barely populated corners of the world... such as the despicable Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. 

You are right, Western Culture is an admirable thing.  The US has been a big part of that.  Yes,  I think some sensitive people do consider it outrageous, but they may think one is saying Western Culture is the only admirable thing.  Nevertheless, it is hard to deny its impact in many fields.  Taking the subject to science:

Check out Claire's entry about embryo repair with Crispr.   A breakthrough right in our home state of Oregon.  Technology  and science still thrive.

 

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The West didn't invent slavery, but as far as it's influence reached, it did put an end to it, throughout most of the world.

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On 27/07/2017 at 7:48 AM, AnchorSteam said:

Why do you think I am speaking of the US exclusively? If you had not chopped off my post like that, the word "Western" would still have been in there. 

The last hold-out for Slavery in this Hemisphere was Brazil, they let go in 1888. 

 

And I can do you a few better; Look into the Berlin Conference of 1885 and the Brussels act of 1890. The concept of slavery was so odious that only the complete elimination of it on a Global scale was good enough, and so the Slavery Convention of 1926 and then the Forced Labor Convention of 1930. Both were judged historic achievements at the time, with the blessing of the League of nations.

 

I know that it is considered an outrageous thing to say in this day and age, but Western culture is a rather admirable thing. After the above measures, slavery was only continued with in the shadows, in isolated and barely populated corners of the world... such as the despicable Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. 

 

Again with the "America sucks" routine... did I even mention the word America in my post?

Okay, so a European nation of 6 million does better with Math on the average, what use are they making of it? Have they turned their backs on the ethos that created a century of progress?

 

"Sometimes there are not" .... and sometimes, there ARE.

 

And sure, education needs improvement, no argument there. After decades of expanding costs and declining results, I don't blame the kids. I think we need better teachers.

Removing the Socialist Engineering from curriculum might help. Could make room for more advanced Math classes, for example.

Agreed?

Can't speak for the US but in the UK it's not better teachers we need but more trust in teachers. The job is so heavy on paperwork and targets these days that the best teachers leave because they're not allowed to make the difference they could. 

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4 minutes ago, Setton said:

Can't speak for the US but in the UK it's not better teachers we need but more trust in teachers. The job is so heavy on paperwork and targets these days that the best teachers leave because they're not allowed to make the difference they could. 

Then the time has come to cut down on the Paperwork. Otherwise, a generation will eventually come along that can't read the paperwork.

At that point, they will just chuck it all out.

 

Seriously , all these new rules and regs are just being generated by bureaucrats that are struggling to justify their massive salaries, and how many cousins they have appointed to new offices to manage all the problems all the paperwork they have generated causes.

Irresponsible management either comes to an end, or the system they polluted will come to an end.

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4 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

Then the time has come to cut down on the Paperwork. Otherwise, a generation will eventually come along that can't read the paperwork.

At that point, they will just chuck it all out.

 

Seriously , all these new rules and regs are just being generated by bureaucrats that are struggling to justify their massive salaries, and how many cousins they have appointed to new offices to manage all the problems all the paperwork they have generated causes.

Irresponsible management either comes to an end, or the system they polluted will come to an end.

Its not just true in government.  I have worked in private industry all of my career.  40 years ago people made things and managers knew how those things were made and how to run a business making quality products.  Over time, MBA's took over who thought products didn't matter, if you could operate a spreadsheet, you could run any  business.  Customers and products took a backseat to finance manipulation.  Product isn't important in that world, it is just turning the paperwork crank.  Same in schools maybe.

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1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

Its not just true in government.  I have worked in private industry all of my career.  40 years ago people made things and managers knew how those things were made and how to run a business making quality products.  Over time, MBA's took over who thought products didn't matter, if you could operate a spreadsheet, you could run any  business.  Customers and products took a backseat to finance manipulation.  Product isn't important in that world, it is just turning the paperwork crank.  Same in schools maybe.

Damn... that's just crazy.

I hear the Austro-Hungarian Empire was pretty much the same way during the first two decades of the 20th Century.

They didn't get a 3rd one. 

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6 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Its not just true in government.  I have worked in private industry all of my career.  40 years ago people made things and managers knew how those things were made and how to run a business making quality products.  Over time, MBA's took over who thought products didn't matter, if you could operate a spreadsheet, you could run any  business.  Customers and products took a backseat to finance manipulation.  Product isn't important in that world, it is just turning the paperwork crank.  Same in schools maybe.

I rather like that as an analogy 

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13 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

Damn... that's just crazy.

I hear the Austro-Hungarian Empire was pretty much the same way during the first two decades of the 20th Century.

They didn't get a 3rd one. 

Yeah, its kind of worrisome.    I am working with a new generation of managers as I near retirement from an engineering heavy aerospace company.  The attitude now is that if customers aren't complaining, you are "leaving too much money on the table"  Every action and every material has a dollar value, calculations have become very simple, yes or no.  What we once considered right, wrong, or intuitive  are not values in this system. The problem is that the values assigned to everything have a margin or error, or they change over time and become inaccurate.  Predictions and forecasts begin to fail.

Part of it is me of course, I was schooled in quality and elegance.  Designs built in fail-safe margins, and an elegant design used the least material, and was manufacturing-friendly; easy as possible to assemble properly.  I am not against data and analysis, far from it but the trend has been to take intelligence out of the action.  Turn a crank and the right answer spits out mechanically.   I think that is a bad assumption in the long run.

The mystery remaining is that if everything is reduced to dollar values and decisions are yes / no  why do we need to pay a person highly to press the right button?  Put a banana on one button and no banana on the other and a monkey could do it.

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3 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Yeah, its kind of worrisome.    I am working with a new generation of managers as I near retirement from an engineering heavy aerospace company.  The attitude now is that if customers aren't complaining, you are "leaving too much money on the table"

Well.... that certainly explains today's Airline industry, doesn't it?

3 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Part of it is me of course, I was schooled in quality and elegance...

Don't you wish such things existed in the Course Syllabus today?

 

What we have is corruption on such a scale that it can't even be recognized as such today. There are all sorts of parasites, barnacles and Sucker-fish clinging to the system that collapse is inevitable at this point. The real issue is, how much damage will be done to the rest of us?

Reform cannot be contemplated by the higher-ups because there is simply too much money at stake. The new aristocrats can't see what is going on outside their bubble any better than the Czar's court, the last French dynasty, the last Roman Senate, the Manchu Empire or the Islamic Empires that were eliminated by the Mongols. 

It happens over and over, and I guess the people in charge are always this arrogant and ignorant... while believing themselves to be the most enlightened and secure people on Earth. 

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1 hour ago, AnchorSteam said:

It happens over and over, and I guess the people in charge are always this arrogant and ignorant... while believing themselves to be the most enlightened and secure people on Earth. 

I think you are spot on with this one.  When you get to the top, you might come to believe that you belong there and it will last forever.  The whole thing kind of blows my mind.  What small fraction of the human race is actually involved in growing the food, making the goods, and providing basic services. that we use.  Add in entertainment and luxuries, and I bet the % is still pretty small.

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