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Tonite T

Betty and Barney Hill Case Debunked

348 posts in this topic

After reading this thread I have to say ....what a tough crowd here at Unexplained Mysteries......;)

I have always had doubts on the Hill case.....even from the very early days when the film was aired on television in 1975... (I'm an old guy...).

Just curious, and this question is primarily  for the non-believers in the case ; 'what do you think really happened and do you believe that Betty made this up, was under some psychological delusion like a folie a deux, or something else? I think 'hoax' is a bit harsh and I have always thought she actually believed they had some type of strange encounter but that it was not about space aliens.

 

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2 minutes ago, doctor wu said:

After reading this thread I have to say ....what a tough crowd here at Unexplained Mysteries......;)

I have always had doubts on the Hill case.....even from the very early days when the film was aired on television in 1975... (I'm an old guy...).

Just curious, and this question is primarily  for the non-believers in the case ; 'what do you think really happened and do you believe that Betty made this up, was under some psychological delusion like a folie a deux, or something else? I think 'hoax' is a bit harsh and I have always thought she actually believed they had some type of strange encounter but that it was not about space aliens.

 

I think they were tired. I think they drove a long way home at night. Betty at least was a strong believer in aliens and UFOs. During the drive home the night sky turned out to be clear and lights in the sky became UFOs. Later on this adventure became embellished like a fishing story.

I am quite familiar with Franconia Notch, Indian Head, the Old Man of Mountain (illegally climbed it before it fell off). I know the layout of the area. The Notch actually has a limited view of the sky. Back then, not now, the original road was narrow and trees limited viewing of the sky. They mention the Old Man. It was visible only from a very restricted area at the north end of the Notch. In the dark they would have had trouble knowing where it was after entering the Notch. They might have been looking at the Whaleback crack area  (which also fell) or any of a number of other features.

I think they misidentified something as a UFO and then somehow the story became grander and grander with time. Hypnosis can change the way people think. It can alter their memories. It can lead to false memories. It was a story that probably seemed more realistic as they filled in more and more details.

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33 minutes ago, stereologist said:

I think they were tired. I think they drove a long way home at night. Betty at least was a strong believer in aliens and UFOs. During the drive home the night sky turned out to be clear and lights in the sky became UFOs. Later on this adventure became embellished like a fishing story.

I am quite familiar with Franconia Notch, Indian Head, the Old Man of Mountain (illegally climbed it before it fell off). I know the layout of the area. The Notch actually has a limited view of the sky. Back then, not now, the original road was narrow and trees limited viewing of the sky. They mention the Old Man. It was visible only from a very restricted area at the north end of the Notch. In the dark they would have had trouble knowing where it was after entering the Notch. They might have been looking at the Whaleback crack area  (which also fell) or any of a number of other features.

I think they misidentified something as a UFO and then somehow the story became grander and grander with time. Hypnosis can change the way people think. It can alter their memories. It can lead to false memories. It was a story that probably seemed more realistic as they filled in more and more details.

That's a reasonable explanation as any I've heard over the years and one that could very well be true.

 

What are your thoughts in general regarding Dr Vallee's ideas (EDH and Control system hypothesis) as presented in his books Invisible College, Dimensions, Confrontations , and Revelations..?

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5 hours ago, doctor wu said:

That's a reasonable explanation as any I've heard over the years and one that could very well be true.

 

What are your thoughts in general regarding Dr Vallee's ideas (EDH and Control system hypothesis) as presented in his books Invisible College, Dimensions, Confrontations , and Revelations..?

I haven't read any of Vallee's books. He seems to me trying to propose a one size fits all idea.

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Posted (edited)

15 hours ago, stereologist said:

I haven't read any of Vallee's books. He seems to me trying to propose a one size fits all idea.

I think his attempt is more of trying to provide a possible hypothesis and work from there. He is open to all ideas but based on his research, and imho no one has done more than he in the field over the last 50 years, his current model is the EDH and control system notion....though he would be the first to say that this is just a model. He once joked that , 'he would be disappointed if it turned out that the ufo phenom was only space aliens.' ;)

IMHO if one is interested in the ufo enigma they would do well to  read his material to at least see his ideas. I have been following the ufo enigma and various ufologists since  the mid 1970's and imho no one has spent more time, talked to more witnesses and researchers, and delved deeper into the  mystery than Dr Vallee ( he also worked closely with Dr Hynek) .

Edited by doctor wu
spelling..

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49 minutes ago, doctor wu said:

I think his attempt is more of trying to provide a possible hypothesis and work from there. He is open to all ideas but based on his research, and imho no one has done more than he in the field over the last 50 years, his current model is the EDH and control system notion....though he would be the first to say that this is just a model. He once joked that , 'he would be disappointed if it turned out that the ufo phenom was only space aliens.' ;)

IMHO if one is interested in the ufo enigma they would do well to  read his material to at least see his ideas. I have been following the ufo enigma and various ufologists since  the mid 1970's and imho no one has spent more time, talked to more witnesses and researchers, and delved deeper into the  mystery than Dr Vallee ( he also worked closely with Dr Hynek) .

It seems to me that the one size fits all concept rarely if ever works. I don't really want to spend a lot of time reading his books. I have things I'd much rather do.

Is there a short synopsis of the ideas that gives the gist of his work that can be read in say 15 minutes? What little I have seen doesn't make much sense as far as I can tell. I'd like to give it more of a chance without investing a pile of time.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, stereologist said:

It seems to me that the one size fits all concept rarely if ever works. I don't really want to spend a lot of time reading his books. I have things I'd much rather do.

Is there a short synopsis of the ideas that gives the gist of his work that can be read in say 15 minutes? What little I have seen doesn't make much sense as far as I can tell. I'd like to give it more of a chance without investing a pile of time.

I understand but then exactly where are you getting your info on the ufo enigma from.... online web sites..? Not a very good source, imho, ( and what else do we have....books and actual field work).... if that's the case. Seems like people are always in a hurry  these days.......must be a youth thing.     ;)  I'm not sure where you are getting the 'one size fits all' idea if you aren't even familiar with his work but   you can try a Google search since there are plenty of places that have his basic ideas posted....but when taken out of context of the larger explanations in his writings it can seem esoteric to many who are not very well read in the ufo area in general. (And I'm not referring to you specifically just a general comment)..

Try this ... 3 different links ...these are all decent I suppose but imho once again no one is fully informed on this puzzling enigma without delving into his work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Vallée

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc839.htm   this has a good intro to him and a solid interview....imho.

https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_vallee03.htm

 

Edited by doctor wu
clarity

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On 06/08/2017 at 7:57 AM, Tonite T said:

A FEIGNED ABDUCTION

The true story

The truth on the case Betty and Barney Hill






  There is a matter that has intrigued me for a long time. I refer to the case of Betty and Barney Hill, a marriage formed by a black man and a white woman that presumably were abducted by extraterrestrials.

Since I first got to know about the case I thought it was a simply terrestrial kidnapping.


The kidnapping took place in the year 1961 and that apparently happened was extracted using hypnosis by a called psychiatrist Benjamin Simon.


Perhaps you will be perplexed. What is known is that these two people went in an automobile the night from the 19 to September 20 1961 returning from Canada, where they had some days of vacation. The matter is that when they arrived to their home in Portsmouth they missed two hours. I mean they arrived with a delay of two hours more than that accustomed. The true or apparent history arose through the hypnosis. The so known missing time.

I was told the couple had been investigated by certain authorities because somehow the Hills get informed about UFOs and were trying to track them and they would have been kidnapped to get information only.
 The Hills were investigating UFO.  

 Those who  were investigating the couple would have been from an area by Alamo Gordo, built in 1942. 

 They were doing  Nuclear experimentsthere by then. There hadn`t been extraterrestrials there at that time.


It was being used exclusively  for nuclear experiments. There must be an underground base there.
 

 Getting back  to the topic, the strange thing is that under hypnosis this couple tells a story in which they affirm to have been abducted by aliens. 

  The couple was hypnotized after they were kidnapped, which means, before they were hypnotized by the psychiatrist Simon. 
 
 The tone here is not disclosing anything. It is only a product of imagination since we just cannot accept the Hills abduction case is true. The theory is that they were getting closer to et contacts.We have to explain in advance to calm down the hyper critics self nominated skeptics so that they may relax and post their comments without excess relating to their heart beats. The Hills would have developed certain apparatuses they wished to use to et contacts.

 The wife, Betty Hill told she saw ets wearing military caps (I could not help laughing at that). She was in an altered state of conscious being hypnotized to make ets wearing caps. Strange.   
And then the whole story they said under hypnosis. Strange,  I mean they saw a space ship descending, from which they saw extraterrestrials who took them to the ship. 

 The ufo could be a helicopter likening a UFO. Gases which are used in these cases to produce hallucinations. These hallucinations can also be induced.

And Betty  saw an astronomical chart where supposedly was the star from where those extraterrestrials came the zeta reticulae binary star system.
 
People, gonna tell you what, this case is a hoax.

 

P.S

Whoever saying what one wishes end up listening to what  one should not.
Fortunately I keep on being lighthearted towards social acceptance welcoming criticism wherever they may come from.
One thing is mandatory to me. Something i value more than anything else= no foul language, no cursing. Besides, who knows who is behind the computer by his father's side while he browses on the internet. It may be a child, a pre teen, one must be careful and it's best avoiding bad language.
I am sure Barney and Betty Hill family won't mind my posting about their supposed Abduction Case.
One more thing. It was not only me who does not believe in this abduction.

 Have a great day! (or night , wherever you are in the world..)

Tonie

I thought you must be going to produce evidence of some militsry conspiracy cover up but this is just belief based supposition.

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6 hours ago, doctor wu said:

I understand but then exactly where are you getting your info on the ufo enigma from.... online web sites..? Not a very good source, imho, ( and what else do we have....books and actual field work).... if that's the case. Seems like people are always in a hurry  these days.......must be a youth thing.     ;)  I'm not sure where you are getting the 'one size fits all' idea if you aren't even familiar with his work but   you can try a Google search since there are plenty of places that have his basic ideas posted....but when taken out of context of the larger explanations in his writings it can seem esoteric to many who are not very well read in the ufo area in general. (And I'm not referring to you specifically just a general comment)..

Try this ... 3 different links ...these are all decent I suppose but imho once again no one is fully informed on this puzzling enigma without delving into his work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Vallée

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc839.htm   this has a good intro to him and a solid interview....imho.

https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_vallee03.htm

 

Thank. I've read some of these before and I see Vallee as a "one size fits all" seller. He collects lots of apparently different phenomena and makes them into a inter-dimensional whatever. Definitely not a fan of this.

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On 8/16/2017 at 7:54 AM, CeresExpo2000 said:

So the Zeta Grays DO trade with Gliese 86.

Okay, so WHO lives at Gliese 86?  Where exactly IS Gliese 86????

It's likely in the space of your mind.:whistle:

jmccr8

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Posted (edited)

53 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

It's likely in the space of your mind.:whistle:

 

lost_marbles02.jpg.1a6bc24d304eb4ac555ab0e380900002.jpg

Edited by lost_shaman

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Posted (edited)

11 hours ago, stereologist said:

Thank. I've read some of these before and I see Vallee as a "one size fits all" seller. He collects lots of apparently different phenomena and makes them into a inter-dimensional whatever. Definitely not a fan of this.

Fair enough if that's how you 'see it'. But IMHO you are mistaken about his work but then we all have our 'opinions'.

:)

 

Edited by doctor wu

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40 minutes ago, doctor wu said:

Fair enough if that's how you 'see it'. But IMHO you are mistaken about his work but then we all have our 'opinions'.

:)

 

Can you give me an example of of how I am mistaken?

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Posted (edited)

40 minutes ago, stereologist said:

Can you give me an example of of how I am mistaken?

Well...you seem to think he's a 'one trick pony'...and that's not the case and that's what I 'm referring to.  His main model for the cases he highlights is his hypothesis ,but he clearly states that many of the ufo cases can be explained by any number of ways...many of them prosaic.  You aren't 'wrong' in any other sense.

If you did read one of his later books this would become clear. To give a long explanation on his various ideas for so many varied cases  is something I really don't care to do just like you don't seem to be interested in reading a long book by Dr Vallee.

btw the interview I linked to could answer many of your questions regarding his stance...

cheers,

 

ps...I'm interested to hear your position  on the ufo enigma.....since I'm new here I'm not aware which model you like to use.

 

 

Edited by doctor wu
spelling..clarity

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34 minutes ago, doctor wu said:

Well...you seem to think he's a 'one trick pony'...and that's not the case and that's what I 'm referring to.  His main model for the cases he highlights is his hypothesis ,but he clearly states that many of the ufo cases can be explained by any number of ways...many of them prosaic.  You aren't 'wrong' in any other sense.

If you did read one of his later books this would become clear. To give a long explanation on his various ideas for so many varied cases  is something I really don't care to do just like you don't seem to be interested in reading a long book by Dr Vallee.

btw the interview I linked to could answer many of your questions regarding his stance...

cheers,

 

ps...I'm interested to hear your position  on the ufo enigma.....since I'm new here I'm not aware which model you like to use.

There are always appeals in internet forums for people to sit down and watch hours and hours of videos or to read a large collection of books. Almost no one is going to do that. It is important to realize that simple fact.

If you have a position to discuss write up a short synopsis of what it is you want to present. That goes for books and videos. Tell people what you find so compelling about the issue and where to look.

When I read things such as the interview I see someone trying to fit what are probably different issues into the same pigeon hole.

I believe there are multiple issues regarding UFO reports from identification, wishful thinking, hoaxes, atmospheric effect, embellishments, and so forth. Lots of things people report seem to be nothing more than what people experience. The shapes of the creatures are what they see in movies and costume parties, themselves in the mirror. The alien probes seem in many cases to be common or outdated methods. Vallee admits this in the interview with " Well, I think it proves entirely the opposite thing, because the descriptions that are given of the medical examinations are crude to the point of being absurd. " That certainly suggests to me that it wasn't anything advanced doing this be it aliens or someone that can travel interdimensionally.

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Posted (edited)

30 minutes ago, stereologist said:

There are always appeals in internet forums for people to sit down and watch hours and hours of videos or to read a large collection of books. Almost no one is going to do that. It is important to realize that simple fact.

If you have a position to discuss write up a short synopsis of what it is you want to present. That goes for books and videos. Tell people what you find so compelling about the issue and where to look.

When I read things such as the interview I see someone trying to fit what are probably different issues into the same pigeon hole.

I believe there are multiple issues regarding UFO reports from identification, wishful thinking, hoaxes, atmospheric effect, embellishments, and so forth. Lots of things people report seem to be nothing more than what people experience. The shapes of the creatures are what they see in movies and costume parties, themselves in the mirror. The alien probes seem in many cases to be common or outdated methods. Vallee admits this in the interview with " Well, I think it proves entirely the opposite thing, because the descriptions that are given of the medical examinations are crude to the point of being absurd. " That certainly suggests to me that it wasn't anything advanced doing this be it aliens or someone that can travel interdimensionally.

I've been on many ufo forums and for a  long time...over 17 years... ..not trying to best anyone ,just stating a fact. I generally find a lack of ufo knowledge by many who post on them due to poor reading habits or simply a lack of reading the info to begin with. Many also seem to focus on only one or two writers or aspects of the enigma and miss the overall picture. So we might agree on that issue.

I think, as does Dr Vallee, there are many explanations (natural phenom, hallucinations, hoaxing, etc..) for ufo cases depending on the individual case. I do think there's merit to his idea that some of the cases he classifies as high strangeness might be 'other' as in  inter-dimensional (using the term in a loose manner) and not extraterrestrial, but he would be the first to say there is  no clear evidence to prove this...it's speculation from observation, data, and analysis  of some cases by him over a long time;. If one does not like his model...so be it. End of story on that for me.

Based on your reply it appears you adopt the 'null hypothesis' ( all cases are prosaic) for just about all events...is that the case?

 

 

Edited by doctor wu
spelling..

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1 minute ago, doctor wu said:

I've been on many ufo forums and for a  long time...over 17 years... ..not trying to best anyone ,just stating a fact. I generally find a lack of ufo knowledge by many who post on them due to poor reading habits

or simply a lack of reading the info to begin with. Many also seem to focus on only one or two writers or aspects of the enigma and miss the overall picture. So we might agree on that issue.

I think, as does Dr Vallee, there are many explanations for ufo cases depending on the individual case. I do think there's merit to his idea that some of the cases he classifies as high strangeness might be inter-dimensional (using the term in a loose manner) and not extraterrestrial but he would be the first to say there is no clear  no clear evidence to prove this...it's speculation from observation, data, and analysis  of some cases over a long time. End of story on that.

Based on your reply it appears you adopt the 'null hypothesis' ( all cases are prosaic) for just about all events...is that the case?

Correct. I have not seen evidence for aliens that is compelling. Some of the stories in the Vallee interview support my position.

The people that thought something passed through trees - a misidentification.

The mention of the medical techniques - fantasies, or hoaxes, or delusions.

The humanoid appearance - same as above.

The cat and the eye slits is not a valid description of the situation. The cat has other senses that vision. The summation " One of the opportunities that the UFO phenomenon is giving us is to look at reality in a much larger context. " I don't believe that is correct either.

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6 minutes ago, stereologist said:

Correct. I have not seen evidence for aliens that is compelling. Some of the stories in the Vallee interview support my position.

The people that thought something passed through trees - a misidentification.

The mention of the medical techniques - fantasies, or hoaxes, or delusions.

The humanoid appearance - same as above.

The cat and the eye slits is not a valid description of the situation. The cat has other senses that vision. The summation " One of the opportunities that the UFO phenomenon is giving us is to look at reality in a much larger context. " I don't believe that is correct either.

So you dismiss all cases no matter what the case is and think that there is no 'real ufo enigma' other than hoaxing, fantasy, delusions, misidents, etc..?

Might I ask why you bother to discuss the topic here since you have no feelings  that some cases might be relevant. Are you just interested in debunking ,etc?  And I'm not trying to pigeon hole you

but interested in your motivations regarding the topic.

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Posted (edited)

thought you must be going to produce evidence of some militsry conspiracy cover up but this is just belief based supposition.

 

@Walter

 

I can not provide such evidence of a supposed military conspiracy.

You noticed I presented the case recklessly on purpose. Including chopping here and there sort of randomlessly.

My interest in this case is related to my interest in Anthropology. I would like to learn from people. See their reactions to a notorious case.

Notorious according to my opinion.

But who knows the definite truth in The Hills Case?

The weakest part is regarding any conspiracy theory. This is not 'my beach'

Edited by Tonite T
grammar

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On 17/08/2017 at 0:54 AM, CeresExpo2000 said:

So the Zeta Grays DO trade with Gliese 86.

Okay, so WHO lives at Gliese 86?  Where exactly IS Gliese 86????

IIRC Gliese 86 is a supermassive sun larger than our entire solar system and it doesn't have any detectable planets

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8 hours ago, doctor wu said:

So you dismiss all cases no matter what the case is and think that there is no 'real ufo enigma' other than hoaxing, fantasy, delusions, misidents, etc..?

Might I ask why you bother to discuss the topic here since you have no feelings  that some cases might be relevant. Are you just interested in debunking ,etc?  And I'm not trying to pigeon hole you

but interested in your motivations regarding the topic.

Didn't say that did I? Never stated or suggested that all cases should be dismissed. What I did say and I will repeat it for you is that I have not seen any compelling cases to date. To help you out that does not exclude future cases from being compelling.

What's wrong with pointing out the faults or merits of a topic? That's what you mean by debunking isn't it? In the case of the Betty and Barney Hill story there really isn't much to it is there? You have people that thought they saw a UFO and later embellished the story with abduction and all sorts of other things.

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17 hours ago, doctor wu said:

So you dismiss all cases no matter what the case is and think that there is no 'real ufo enigma' other than hoaxing, fantasy, delusions, misidents, etc..?

?????

Might I ask why you create strawman arguments and completely misrepresent what people are saying?

 

Next time QUOTE the person in context, and debate what they actually say, rather than make sh!+ up in order to try to drive people away who might disagree with you.

 

17 hours ago, doctor wu said:

And I'm not trying to pigeon hole you

Yes, you dam well are and you know it.

 

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