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Farmer77

Trump to Increase Subsidy for Mines

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Trump Moves to Increase Subsidy for Coal Mining on Federal Lands

Donald Trump appears to set regulatory policy on a kind of reverse-utilitarian calculus, working diligently to do the greatest good for the smallest number. With the help of the congressional GOP, the president has made it easier for coal companies to dump mining waste in streams; given financial advisers the right to scam their clients; and made companies that routinely abuse their workers eligible for federal contracts again.

But with its latest deregulatory endeavor, the Trump administration has taken this governing philosophy to new heights: The White House appears to have found a way to put the profit margins of select coal companies ahead of not merely environmental conservation, climate sustainability, and federal taxpayers, but also coal miners in Appalachia.

Early in his tenure, Trump reversed the Obama administration’s moratorium on leasing federal lands to coal companies, and canceled its proposed study on the environmental impacts of the coal industry. But Trump’s Interior Department doesn’t merely want the public to blindly absorb the environmental costs of fossil-fuel extraction on public lands — it also wants us to subsidize the financial costs of such activity. Late last week, the administration filed a repeal of an Obama-era measure designed to increase mineral royalties on federal lands. Or, more precisely, Trump moved to reopen loopholes that allow coal companies to avoid paying their full dues to Uncle Sam.

 

Wow this is indefensible. 

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2 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Wow this is indefensible. 

Wanna bet? lol

Just kidding. We can shift through some media bias but ultimately I am also stumped on Trump's pandering to such small economic contributors. Is he going to reboot the ol cotton gin industry? Before this thread devolves in to mud flinging, let's quickly clear the air:

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With the help of the congressional GOP, the president has made it easier for coal companies to dump mining waste in streams;

From the article:

Quote

On 2 February 2017, the U.S. Congress passed a joint resolution to block implementation of an Obama administration coal mining regulation known as the Stream Protection Rule, which took effect on the final day of President Obama’s term in office (19 January 2017)

Quote

While the Obama rule would not have been an outright ban on the practice of placing excess spoil in waterways, it did place strict regulations on where new permits could be issued based on their potential for surface water contamination.

So it's more like "Trump made it easier for coal mining companies to obtain dumping permits", to be super clear. Technically the article is right.

I'm not going to bother digging through the rest. Just because coal is cheap (is it?) doesn't make it the best option.

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The reason he's pandering to them is simple: cronyism. He's supporting his friends, like all good oligarchs do.

But I don't really get what the big deal is with the coal industry? Only 55,000 people are employed in the coal industry in the US and no matter how much money is injected, the jobs that are gone are gone forever. They're never coming back. That's what doesn't make sense about his support in West Virginia. It's like they actually believe he'll somehow get all those lost jobs back. This'll never happen.

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Great ,again.   So we get to subsidise companys to dig up Our coal ,on federal land.  Perfect.  That will help a lot with thier profit margin.   

   So, republicans don't like subsidies,  except,  for certain money makers,  like coal and weaponry.

another giant step Backward!

 

 

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Posted (edited)

didn't we already have a thread about it? 

about subsidies, obama gave 700B to banks in 2008, and additional 150B in tax brakes. for something they knew would happen. 

so i do not mind trump giving subsidies to coal miners,  

Edited by aztek
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Just now, aztek said:

didn't we already have a thread about it? 

Not this latest development, well at least I dont think so. 

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i remember we were talking about mines dumping soil into streams, so that is not new, increased subsidies maybe, 

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Just now, aztek said:

i remember we were talking about mines dumping soil into streams, so that is not new, increased subsidies maybe, 

Yeah the subsidies is why I posted it. 

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Posted (edited)

Jesus wept....

So, after spending millions of dollars to regulate mining and generally make it more difficult, the same Govt is going to spend MORE millions to help miners deal with Regulations before they just up & quit?

Kinda like beating yourself with a handball racket to deal with all the pain that new tattoo is causing you, ain't it? 

Edited by AnchorSteam
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Coal is the top energy product in this country. We burn it cleaner then any other country. We have mountains of it. It only make sense to make it as strong as possible. Obama wanted it shut down cause it made it harder for us to compete. Then it was even easier to let the jobs leave. To countries who burn it far less cleaner. And was gonna have us pay hundreds of billions of dollars to let those, and many other jobs leave. Inexcusable? I'll take Trumps version of inexcusable over all the other globalist scum who want to see this country fall any day.

You should be grateful. Instead you are pushing for your own demise.   

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Government subsidies for businesses should be illegal.

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He does know that coal is a dying industry right?

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12 hours ago, Thanato said:

He does know that coal is a dying industry right?

It was only dying cause Obama was intentionally bankrupting the industry. And it was still the biggest energy product in the country even through that. You are acting like he just put stock in VCR's or something.  

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Just now, preacherman76 said:

It was only dying cause Obama was intentionally bankrupting the industry. And it was still the biggest energy product in the country even through that. You are acting like he just put stock in VCR's or something.  

Your analogy is actually dead on, coal is the VCR of the energy industry. Nothing can save the coal industry at this point, nothing. That has nothing to do with Obama and everything to do with capitalism 

Trump Can't Save Coal

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Another analysis from Bloomberg shows that the price of producing power from natural gas relative to coal fell dramatically after 2009 and has remained low since. Additionally, this relative price decline is largely due to the price of natural gas falling, not the price of coal rising. This price decline also matches up with the decline in coal mining employment shown earlier—evidence that competition from natural gas is at least partly responsible.

The increased use of natural gas doesn’t appear to be waning, either. According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, electricity generation from natural gas (33%) caught up to electricity generation from coal (33%) in 2015. As recently as 2000 natural gas was responsible for only about 15% of the nation’s energy while coal was responsible for approximately 50%.  The current parity between the two is the result of a trend that began in the late 1990s, before the most recent regulations.

If Trump really cared about coal workers he would help aid the funding of retraining these coal workers so they can work in alternative energies, solar is a great example: WHY DONALD TRUMP CAN'T SAVE THE COAL INDUSTRY

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Coal plants have been closing year after year. In 2005, there were 619 coal-fired power plants in the United States; that number dropped to 427 by 2015—long before the Obama administration announced the Clean Power Plan.

A study published last year in the peer-reviewed journal Energy Economics says coal miners could cheaply and easily be retrained for jobs in the solar energy industry. The solar industry is experiencing employment growth 12 times that of the entire economy. With the Bureau of Labor Statistics estimating jobs in solar energy will increase by as much as 24 percent by 2022 from a decade before, the employment opportunities for solar panel installers and other jobs in that industry are enormous. And unlike wind and hydroelectric, solar is not geographically limited and so could absorb the vast supply of coal miners with modest relocation costs—if any—for miners and their families.

“A relatively minor investment in retraining would allow the vast majority of coal workers to switch to [solar]-related positions even in the event of the elimination of the coal industry,’’ according to the study, which was written by Joshua Pearce, associate professor in the department of electrical and computer engineering at Michigan Technological University, and Edward Louie, a doctoral student at the School of Public Policy at Oregon State University. “Even if completely subsidized by the federal government, [the cost], ranging from $180 million to $1.87 billion, would only amount to 0.0052 percent and 0.0543 percent of the U.S. federal budget, respectfully.”

 

 

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As someone who does a lot of work in the power industry, I can honestly say coal is dead.  Technology and mass production has made wind turbines competitive without subsidies for power generation.  Alliant Energy (one of the big power generators here in Iowa) just applied for permits for yet another 500 megawatts of wind turbines.  The only reason I can think of subsidizing an archaic energy production method like coal is to use big government to fulfil a campaign promise that the free market won't.

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Posted (edited)

Just now, aztek said:

Image result

List of coal plant closures  Theres a goodly amount of pro industry propaganda in there but scroll down to the list of closures. Just a quick glance and im seeing like 30 closures since 2014 which im positive changes your graph 

Edited by Farmer77
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More to this side of the equation :

Quote

 

~

In Appalachian communities alone, health care, deaths, and injuries from coal mining and transporting cost $74 billion per year. Beyond Appalachia, the health costs of cancer, lung disease, and respiratory illnesses related to pollutant emissions totals $187.5 billion per year.Feb 17, 2011

Coal Costs U.S. $500 Billion Per Year: Study | HuffPost

www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/17/coal-costs-us-study_n_824004.html

 

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Annual Coal Report - Energy Information Administration

Nov 3, 2016 - U.S. coal consumption of 798 MMst in 2015 was 13.1% lower from the 2014 levels. The electric power sector consumed about 92.5% of the total U.S. coal consumption in 2014. Average sales price of coal from U.S. mines was $31.83 per short ton in 2015, 8.6% lower than the prior year.
 
~

Coal Prices and Outlook - Energy Explained, Your Guide To ...

https://www.eia.gov › Energy Explained › Nonrenewable Sources › Coal

Mar 30, 2017 - In 2015, the average sales price of coal at the mine was $31.83 per ton, and the average delivered coal price to the electric power sector was $42.58 per ton, resulting in an average transportation cost of $10.75 per ton, or about 25% of the total delivered price.

 

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How Much Does Coal Cost Appalachia, the U.S., and the World? - The ...

Aug 12, 2015 - They examined the full cost of coal's “lifecycle” in the United States—that is, the costs of everything that mining coal, transporting it, burning it for ...
 
~

Coal Costs U.S. $500 Billion Per Year: Study | HuffPost

www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/17/coal-costs-us-study_n_824004.html
Feb 17, 2011 - First, public health costs. In Appalachian communities alone, health care, deaths, and injuries from coal mining and transporting cost $74 billion ...
 
~

The US Coal Industry: Challenging Transitions in the ... - Analysis Group

www.analysisgroup.com/.../tierney%20-%20coal%20industry%20-%2021st%20century...
by SF Tierney - ‎2016 - ‎Related articles

Sep 26, 2016 - mining productivity, declining global demand for U.S. coal exports, increased ... But those conditions came at some real costs: Coal-mining jobs ...

~

 

 

Barbarians at the gates ...

~

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1 hour ago, preacherman76 said:

It was only dying cause Obama was intentionally bankrupting the industry. And it was still the biggest energy product in the country even through that. You are acting like he just put stock in VCR's or something.  

Col is dying because everyone, even China, is moving away from it. Why? Because it is literally dirty. Coal will never recover and continue to decline as demand declines. And as demand declines no amount of subsidies will save this dying industry. 

 

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Fracking is another reason why it's dying.  The last three new power plants we built have all been gas turbine generators.  The glut of natural gas is leading us away from coal as well.  

  The only work I have done on coal plants have been repairs on the precipitators for stress damage from frequent on and off cycles on something that was designed for continuous use.  Even then it seems they are cutting the maintenance budget to free up money for wind turbines.  

  There has been talk about trying a solar plant, but everyone pretty much admits that wind is king here.  The gas plants are designed for the frequent start/stop cycle needed when working with wind.

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Posted (edited)

That's another quagmire of muddied befuddlement :
 

Quote

 

~

Oil | Time.com

time.com/tag/oil/
Read the latest stories about Oil on Time. ... to slash regulations and cut taxes. The speech comes as Trump tries to shore up support in the oil and gas industry.
 
~

[PDF]The Truth About Oil - Energy and Capital

www.energyandcapital.com/reports/TruthAboutOil.pdf
But that couldn't be further from the truth. Far from being a rumor, this ... But it wasn't the first time—or the last—that oil, not weapons, proved to be the true “war ...
~
Jan 2, 2015 - The Truth About Oil. ... Headlines proclaiming last year's 46% decline in the price of oil are ... Boom times led to 2% - 3% in extra demand.
~

Over a Barrel: The Truth About Oil | The Documentary Group

thedocumentarygroup.com/portfolio/over-a-barrel-the-truth-about-oil/
Oil is the biggest business in the world and it is an industry that last year earned $180 billion in profits – one gallon at a time. Over a Barrel: The Truth About Oil ...
~

Mar 16, 2017 - For a time, natural gas, traditionally a byproduct of oil production, was simply burned off. But back in 2002 in the Barnett shale near Dallas, ...

~

 

Another one of those too big to fail moments ...

Edited by third_eye
addendum
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Posted (edited)

it may be dying, but it is far from dead, 1\3 of all energy in usa still made using coal.

Edited by aztek

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13 minutes ago, aztek said:

it may be dying, but it is far from dead, 1\3 of all energy in usa still made using coal.

Yes and that is declining every year.

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1 minute ago, Thanato said:

Yes and that is declining every year.

lol, the industry and demand for coal will outlive you.

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2 minutes ago, aztek said:

lol, the industry and demand for coal will outlive you.

Yes possibly but it will be a shadow of its former demand. The former demand that is the demand for it today. And today it's a shadow of what it was when coal was king.

coal will stay but it will be a fraction of what it is today.

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