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OverSword

Robert E Lee opposes confederate monuments

87 posts in this topic

6 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Well thats just not statistically accurate and you're completely ignoring the violence perpetrated by the racists before ANTIFA ever became physically involved in Charlottesville. 

 

If you dont even know the players involved why are you commenting? Take the time to become informed, rather than cherry picking pieces of information which ensures your predetermined beliefs are affirmed. 

 

Im very interested in this "your side" stuff. What exactly is my side in your opinion Panther? 

It is accurate, and I will start a thread with links to instances of Antifa crimes. I'm talking about crime and terrorism across the country. I'm not limiting it to Charlottesville. Both sides indeed were violent there.

I know the involved players, but it sounds like you don't. I realize that there were peaceful *and* violent people on both sides. I also realize that not all of the "pro-monument" demonstrators are White supremacists. I admit that I didn't know about the thing with the clergy, which takes absolutely nothing from my take on the subject.

I say "your side" because you can't or won't admit that the Left is very violent at political and social protests and rallies. I also say that to return a favor to you when you agreed with Black Angus that I'm a Nazi. I also say that because you refuse to accept reality when it is shown to you. That all smacks of taking sides. 

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On 8/18/2017 at 6:40 PM, blacknagus said:

Wait? So you admit that the right started the violence then?  Not like one can not simply walk around or take another path. NO, WE must bust through. 
By the way, who stands up for Nazis?   Oh, maybe a Nazi himself.   
Oh whaaa whaaa about the vision.  A lady was freaking crushed by a vehicle and several were injured physically (maybe permanently for life).  

Another effin' Nazi sympathizer...  Wow.  

Feel free to respond to my post on a second thread. It's post 100 on the Antifa thread. As I said I would, I started a thread that listed acts of violence, but it was locked and removed. Call me a liar after you look at the links, and I can post about the recent events if you wrongly think that I'm lying about that. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

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3 hours ago, Paranormal Panther said:

It is accurate, and I will start a thread with links to instances of Antifa crimes. I'm talking about crime and terrorism across the country. I'm not limiting it to Charlottesville. Both sides indeed were violent there.

I know the involved players, but it sounds like you don't. I realize that there were peaceful *and* violent people on both sides. I also realize that not all of the "pro-monument" demonstrators are White supremacists. I admit that I didn't know about the thing with the clergy, which takes absolutely nothing from my take on the subject.

I say "your side" because you can't or won't admit that the Left is very violent at political and social protests and rallies. I also say that to return a favor to you when you agreed with Black Angus that I'm a Nazi. I also say that because you refuse to accept reality when it is shown to you. That all smacks of taking sides. 

Woah i never said the left isnt violent at political events. Ive condemned their actions at Berkeley multiple times. Although i do think their actions in charlottesville were appropriate i dont deny the violence there either. 

My argument is twofold :  

A. that what small amount of frankly schoolyard violence they do commit pales in comparison to the life altering and life ending actions of racists.

B. That the whataboutism and obsession with politics displayed by Trump and his supporters grants political legitimacy to the racists. That is wholly inappropriate, they are literally cheering your actions. 

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Posted (edited)

IMHO I feel all this sudden flap about a bunch of stupid statues, in some cases there forever, is a smoke screen and excuse for bad behaviour and engineered to cause problems or attempts to paint one side "bad" and one side "good". I've seen a bunch of African American pundits at this point say the whole thing is ridiculous and that they really don't care about statues.  What they care about is economic stability for Afr-America, jobs, etc. One woman said the statues themselves are a great opportunity for lessons when children ask...who was that and what went on. One guy said he passes one on his way to work every day and it means nothing to him and his life.

Edited by skliss

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20 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

B. That the whataboutism and obsession with politics displayed by Trump and his supporters grants political legitimacy to the racists. That is wholly inappropriate, they are literally cheering your actions. 

What are you talking about?! Give some examples. This wholesale painting of the Trump administration as racist is nonsense.

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4 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

Woah i never said the left isnt violent at political events. Ive condemned their actions at Berkeley multiple times. Although i do think their actions in charlottesville were appropriate i dont deny the violence there either. 

My argument is twofold :  

A. that what small amount of frankly schoolyard violence they do commit pales in comparison to the life altering and life ending actions of racists.

B. That the whataboutism and obsession with politics displayed by Trump and his supporters grants political legitimacy to the racists. That is wholly inappropriate, they are literally cheering your actions. 

You make no sense. That aside, try this experiment. Compare and contrast the violence from both sides since Trump was in the White House. You might learn something, but I doubt it.

Here's another one for you to try. Some guy hits you over the head with a baseball bat. Some guy *threatens* to hit you over the head with a baseball bat. Which scenario would you choose if you knew that one or the other was bound to happen?

The fact that you compare the commies' crimes and terrorism to schoolyard violence is off the charts WTF. Just look at the links in my post on the other thread. Also, tell me what lives have been ended by racists in other events. In the latest event, *one* nut was responsible for one very unfortunate death.

Your second comment makes it seem like you're drunk or high when you post. Trump condemns White supremacists on a routine basis, and he's not responsible for their actions. I also don't know what actions of mine are being cheered. I don't go to protests, and I haven't been in a street fight since I was in college.

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, Paranormal Panther said:

You make no sense. That aside, try this experiment. Compare and contrast the violence from both sides since Trump was in the White House. You might learn something, but I doubt i

This is where your position falls short. You are again, hung up on the political 

Do you think racism ends at political rallies? Do you think these hateful people arent putting their worldview into practice at every opportunity? 

4 hours ago, Paranormal Panther said:

Here's another one for you to try. Some guy hits you over the head with a baseball bat. Some guy *threatens* to hit you over the head with a baseball bat. Which scenario would you choose if you knew that one or the other was bound to happen?

Again your obsession with the actions of these people in political rallies is to wholly ignore the realities of racism. Racism doesnt end when the rally ends and we have a litany of examples of the violent, murderous and terroristic acts perpetrated by racists. There is no comparing the two groups. To do so only grants the racists legitimacy. well done. 

4 hours ago, Paranormal Panther said:

The fact that you compare the commies' crimes and terrorism to schoolyard violence is off the charts WTF. Just look at the links in my post on the other thread. Also, tell me what lives have been ended by racists in other events. In the latest event, *one* nut was responsible for one very unfortunate death.

Historical perspective. Again you are uber focused on politics.

Im talking about the real world and the real life consequences of racism and racists.

Compared to exterminating entire races, or terrorizing Americans because of the color of their skin, lynchings, dragging people behind their cars etc,  yes what happens at those rallies is absolutely schoolyard violence. Thats just real world talk from someone with more than his share of experience with such things. 

 

4 hours ago, Paranormal Panther said:

Your second comment makes it seem like you're drunk or high when you post. Trump condemns White supremacists on a routine basis, and he's not responsible for their actions. I also don't know what actions of mine are being cheered. I don't go to protests, and I haven't been in a street fight since I was in college.

First and foremost I have to say that anytime one delves into whataboutism it gives the impression that they either dont understand or dont care about the issue. Trump acted like a 6 year old ratting out his sisters when he got caught doing something wrong "but whatabout them?" which only ads to the impression that he is defending the racists 

That said his first statement was disturbingly weak and ambiguous which the white supremacists celebrated. 

From the daily stormer (a white supremacist site) 

Quote

Trump comments were good. He didn’t attack us. He just said the nation should come together. Nothing specific against us.

He said that we need to study why people are so angry, and implied that there was hate … on both sides!

So he implied the antifa are haters.

There was virtually no counter-signaling of us at all.

He said he loves us all.

Then he waited two days to address his wholly underwhelming response to Charlottesville with a decent , if clealry forced, statement condemning the white supremacists. Then after stewing for days he comes back with that off the rails press conference where he came across as clearly p***ed off at having to call racism bad.

Oh yeah and it was in that presser which Trump said there were "very fine people" marching with the white supremacists. INSANE and applauded by the racists as evidenced by David Duke:

Quote

"Thank you President Trump for your honesty & courage to tell the truth about #Charlottesville & condemn the leftist terrorists in BLM/Antifa,"

There were no very fine people on the side of the racists , there are never very fine people on the side of the racists. 

Edited by Farmer77

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7 hours ago, skliss said:

What are you talking about?! Give some examples. This wholesale painting of the Trump administration as racist is nonsense.

Honestly I was very hesitant to label him a racist before these events.

That said he has a history which paints a picture of racism ( govt came down on him for racist renting AND employment practices in the past, saying a judge cant do his job because of his heritage, stopping DOJ reforms in police departments and then encouraging police to rough up suspects are some good examples) so when you take all of that into account and then look at his post Charottesville behavior and words the picture is becoming complete. 

Trump had a chance to be presidential after Charlottesville and instead chose to be petty and political. This is one issue where all Americans should be in agreeance yet Trump can't find it in him to address the evil of racism without delving into "whataboutism".  Even if the weak comment on Saturday, and the tantrum on Wednesday weren't racially motivated his refusal to clarify and apologize sure makes it look like they were. 

See my response to panther above for the rest I dont want to take up any more thread space with my leftist nonsense :D

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17 hours ago, Agent0range said:

Native Americans were traitors to their country?  Explain please.

Well, your references are confusing.  Didn’t know if you went back to the Civil War or jumped to the Trail of Tears or were talking about the American Indian in general??  Now that you’ve made it clear, I can correct you.  Your reference to half a million has to be from the Civil War.  620,000 soldiers and 50,000 civilians is pretty close to your half a million figure.  So if you were referencing how many died on the Trail of Tears, that number is around 4,000.  If you were expanding that out to be all American Indians, that number ranges from 30,000 to 45,000.  Just a bit shy on your half a million estimate.  In general the estimates do range wildly.  But considering territorial needs of hunter-gatherer tribes, total population couldn’t have been more than 1 to 2 million.  If it was more than that, then the Europeans would have been out numbered and I doubt that this nation would have existed.

 

Anyway, getting back to what I wanted to point out.  It depends on your point of view as to whether the Confederacy were traitors or not.  They remained loyal to the only country they knew which was the state in which they lived.  The tyranny that came out of Washington made it unbearable to stay.  It was Washington that was acting unconstitutionally (imagine that).  But for the Union, they were traitors and for very good reason.  However, with this logic, then all Americans are traitors to England.  We should remove any statue or vestige of our post colonial history.  Including our Founding Documents, which is what the Left wants in the first place.

 

You know, when you start eradicating your history, you just enable it to be repeated.  This is the actions of Mao, Stalin, Taliban, and ISIS.  When the people can’t remember where they came from, controlling them becomes easy.  Can anyone imagine what will happen in Europe in the next 50 years?  Who here does not understand that?

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11 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

This is where your position falls short. You are again, hung up on the political 

Do you think racism ends at political rallies? Do you think these hateful people arent putting their worldview into practice at every opportunity? 

Again your obsession with the actions of these people in political rallies is to wholly ignore the realities of racism. Racism doesnt end when the rally ends and we have a litany of examples of the violent, murderous and terroristic acts perpetrated by racists. There is no comparing the two groups. To do so only grants the racists legitimacy. well done. 

Historical perspective. Again you are uber focused on politics.

Im talking about the real world and the real life consequences of racism and racists.

Compared to exterminating entire races, or terrorizing Americans because of the color of their skin, lynchings, dragging people behind their cars etc,  yes what happens at those rallies is absolutely schoolyard violence. Thats just real world talk from someone with more than his share of experience with such things. 

 

First and foremost I have to say that anytime one delves into whataboutism it gives the impression that they either dont understand or dont care about the issue. Trump acted like a 6 year old ratting out his sisters when he got caught doing something wrong "but whatabout them?" which only ads to the impression that he is defending the racists 

That said his first statement was disturbingly weak and ambiguous which the white supremacists celebrated. 

From the daily stormer (a white supremacist site) 

Then he waited two days to address his wholly underwhelming response to Charlottesville with a decent , if clealry forced, statement condemning the white supremacists. Then after stewing for days he comes back with that off the rails press conference where he came across as clearly p***ed off at having to call racism bad.

Oh yeah and it was in that presser which Trump said there were "very fine people" marching with the white supremacists. INSANE and applauded by the racists as evidenced by David Duke:

There were no very fine people on the side of the racists , there are never very fine people on the side of the racists. 

You're again missing the point, and you're again changing the subject. Actions speak louder than words, and most of the violent actions come from the Left. You can talk about "what was" and "what might be" all you like, but that evades the central issue. To tell the truth, the fact that you still refer to major crimes as schoolyard violence shows that there's no real reason to further discuss this with you.

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Correct me if I'm wrong....but didn't Lee's stance extend beyond confederate statues and whatever...to include All and Any war memorials and monument ?

     As an aside....sometimes those who promote and instigate violence at demonstrations are actually Plants....to make the "left" leaning demonstrators seem as dangerous and terrifying as possible....to reduce public support for the demonstrators, and thier causes, and to justify more violent responses from.....Authority.

think about that .   When you get as old as I,  you start to see repeating patterns and old tricks used over and over.

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5 minutes ago, lightly said:

...

     As an aside....sometimes those who promote and instigate violence at demonstrations are actually Plants....to make the "left" leaning demonstrators seem as dangerous and terrifying as possible....to reduce public support for the demonstrators, and thier causes, and to justify more violent responses from.....Authority.

...

That goes for both sides. BOTH sides are equally vulnerable to infiltration (especially the Fringe kooks, they get so lonely, after all :ph34r: ) and a frightening number of them are undercover police. That Kessler guy has been shown to be an Obama/Clinton man for a career until the last election.

And don't forget, there is a ton of money on the table when it comes to this nonsense. There is the real issue; we can ignore it, but the money is there to keep it going. There is also the media... damn them to hell.  They go all on a tear about Trump 24/7 trying everything they can to attack him and his supporters. It gets more shrill and bizarre and LOUD every day, but it is not being paid any attention by the Right.

... this is where the law of unintended consequences kicks in. The Left's media is not having any effect on the Right, but they ARE succeeding at terrorizing themselves.

This has happened before, the Germans did it to themselves in both World Wars, most wars have started with at least one side going bonkers for no good reason, and the modern era's first superpower (Spain) demolished itself with Inquisition madness and their endless campaigns to control the rest of Europe. 

 

Propaganda is like a Drug, and when you start getting high on your own supply.... yeah, you know the rest, and it is always a disaster. 

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